Why are Shimpakus expensive?

[fore]

Wow, every day grateful Brent sold me this one, while not cheap, pound-for-pound a bargain compared to the NEBG one!
This is in a 24" wide mica pot.

Not sure I've seen that one, or it's been awhile. But that is one killer shimpaku Brian. I gotta give Brent a call ) I actually bought a 1 gal Kishu shimpaku from him that I just got. Small, but good bones. A few yrs in the pot and I'll have something special I think. Going to Brent's website is like a kid in a candie store lol

 

[Tona]

hi Tona
do you have pics to share of your grafted junipers ?

Hi Art,
I don't want to hijack this post so I put the grafted juniper pics on a new post.
Tona

 

[Don Blackmond]

What would be considered "reasonable" for shimpaku pre-bonsai stock?

isn't that how this thread got started? I know, it was a rhetorical question...

 

[rockm]

"isn't that how this thread got started?"

Not really rhetorical, just looking for a few straight answers. For instance, for almost $1000, I'd consider the shimp in the link to be vastly overpriced...It has been worked, but still...

Someone educate me.

 

[Don Blackmond]

well, most people cannot agree what prebonsai stock is, let alone what price is reasonable.

The reasonable price question is 100% dependent on the tree itself.

There used to be a rule of thumb for trident stock: $25 a caliper inch on 1"-3" trees. That was based on a trunk. There is no similar rule of thumb for shimpaku. They don't grow the same. You cannot just chop them. Growing short branches with foliage tight to the trunk takes time and actual work.

So its really a case by case analysis for reasonable price of shimpaku. See, it was a rhetorical question./\

 

[milehigh_7]

Taking an expert opinion from Don, one can then apply the laws of supply and demand. Most bonsai people want nice shimpaku, even starters are hard to find. One must then find someone like Brent or Don who knows how to develop them for bonsai work.


These things dramatically reduce the already short supply of something that is in demand, thus raising the price.

 

[october]

The juniper in the link does seem expensive. However, there are a few things I need to mention. First, if you are a member there, you can probably get the tree for $800 not $975. I know, I know, still expensive. Second, it is only 9 inches tall with about a 3 1/2 inch plus base with all its own natural itoigawa foliage. Also, all low branching and foliage. Many times when you have material like this, branches don't start until way up the trunk on taller material. This one has branches that start right at the base. Also, it is this part of the country. I have said a bunch of times how expensive material seems to be around here. I was not kidding about this. Take into consideration the lack of good material available, what they have to do to get good material to this part of the country etc. These things if you don't have the finances or a placer to collect, can really slow your bonsai collecting and work down. Lastly, given the trunk it has, but was more twisted and had wild bends and shari, you can be sure it would be priced even higher than this.

Rob

 

[Don Blackmond]

itoigawa are not as common as other types. Landscaping companies/nurseries don't prefer them so there is a huge segment of total demand looking for other varieties, and that results in less production of itoigawa. You might think the opposite result would be trues. Its not.

Shimpaku can grow rapidly; not all do though. Itoigawa actually grow slowly, so developing a big trunk will take some time. Plus techniques for rapid trunk growth don't necessarily work well for itoigawa. If you let leaders/branches run wild to accelerate trunk growth you end up with foliage away from the trunk and have to spend a bunch of time chasing it back in. As a result, you see a lot of itoigawa with twisted branches that double back and forth in order to make foliage appear compact.

So, as October says, a short tree with tight branching and foliage is quite desirable, but time-consuming to create, resulting in a higher price, relatively speaking.

The bottom line is this: there are less itoigawa around because they are not popular in most trades; you have to make them grow short with tight branches and foliage because its not going to happen on its own; and it takes quite awhile to develop them.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Not sure I've seen that one, or it's been awhile. But that is one killer shimpaku Brian. I gotta give Brent a call ) I actually bought a 1 gal Kishu shimpaku from him that I just got. Small, but good bones. A few yrs in the pot and I'll have something special I think. Going to Brent's website is like a kid in a candie store lol

Have fun with the new kishu!

here is the thread on my big one:
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?6800-Shimpaku-from-Evergreen-Gardenworks

 

[fore]

Thanks Brian! Thanks for the link, I'll read thru it now.

Brent told me to just slip pot it into a 2 gal pot and leave alone. I now have shimpaku's, itoigawa's, and a kishu. Very interesting to see in person the diff. b/w the foliage. I figure, give me a yr or two and I'll be able to tell the difference lol

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks Brian! Thanks for the link, I'll read thru it now.

Brent told me to just slip pot it into a 2 gal pot and leave alone. I now have shimpaku's, itoigawa's, and a kishu. Very interesting to see in person the diff. b/w the foliage. I figure, give me a yr or two and I'll be able to tell the difference lol

This kind of illustrates the problem I have. Why is the Itowigawa so important to the selection of Shimpaku Junipers when someone who has both cannot tell the difference between the two? If your goal is as mine, growing good bonsai, why make a big deal out of what appears to me to be a small difference?

 

[Poink88]

This kind of illustrates the problem I have. Why is the Itowigawa so important to the selection of Shimpaku Junipers when someone who has both cannot tell the difference between the two? If your goal is as mine, growing good bonsai, why make a big deal out of what appears to me to be a small difference?

Not sure if it matters to you but I've read that Itoigawa have better pest resistance than the other 2. I haven't checked how true that is but if that is accurate, to me that matters a lot.

Edit in: Here is a leaf comparison by Brian on his blog.
http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/much-ado-about-shimpakuand-itoigawa-and-kishu/

 

[mcpesq817]

This kind of illustrates the problem I have. Why is the Itowigawa so important to the selection of Shimpaku Junipers when someone who has both cannot tell the difference between the two? If your goal is as mine, growing good bonsai, why make a big deal out of what appears to me to be a small difference?

Hi Vance,

I have normal shimpakus, as well as kishus and an itoigawa that I purchased from Chikugo-En a few years ago. At least with my trees, the foliage difference is pretty clear to me, with the itoigawa foliage in particular being fairly different (more feathery). The standard shimpaku and kishu foliage are pretty similar, except kishu is tighter and a bit more vibrant green.

 

[fore]

Vance, let me clarify. I reread my post and see I made a mistake. I can also easily tell the diff. b/w them all, but remembering them is the problem for me

 

[october]

I do love the look of itoigawa foliage. However, Kishu is nice as well. So is California. Honestly, I love junipers in general. Even procumbens with enough time and effort can make beautiful bonsai. Everyone seems to prefer itoigawa and thats fine. It is probably at the top of my list as well. However, I like a little variety with my junipers. Would everyone really want to see every juniper with itoigawa foliage..Variety is the spice of life..lol

Rob

 

[Don Blackmond]

Kishu is nice as well.

I agree. Kishu foliage is really good for bonsai; fine, feathery and not spiny.

 

[october]

To show the versatility and beauty of kishu. Here is a tanuki I did a few years ago. If I remember correctly, I attached a young kishu tree onto the dead wood. The first pic shows the tree right after attachement and branch placement. The second is the tree just 1 1/2 -2 years later.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

To show the versatility and beauty of kishu. Here is a tanuki I did a few years ago. If I remember correctly, I attached a young kishu tree onto the dead wood. The first pic shows the tree right after attachement and branch placement. The second is the tree just 1 1/2 -2 years later.

Rob

Beautiful tree, Kishu or Itowigawa, who gives a rip?

 

[HumbleTrees]

To show the versatility and beauty of kishu. Here is a tanuki I did a few years ago. If I remember correctly, I attached a young kishu tree onto the dead wood. The first pic shows the tree right after attachement and branch placement. The second is the tree just 1 1/2 -2 years later.

Rob

Rob,
Do you have a close-up picture of the graft you could post? I'm going to be starting one about the same size here in the next month or two.
Thanks
Riley

 

[Don Blackmond]

Beautiful tree, Kishu or Itowigawa, who gives a rip?

I don't. From my perspective it was/is an academic discussion addressing the "why" in shimpaku pricing.

October's tree looks great. Compact with dense foliage pads. Most people probably cannot tell what variety of shimpaku it is, other than beautiful.

I have a bunch of itoigawa, kishu and procumbens. I like them all. I prefer itoigawa and kishu over procumbens and other local varieties, but they all have a place on the bench.

And, for those of you looking for trees, I have itoigawa, kishu, procumbens, etc. for sale. Everything from stock to specimen trees, $150 to $4800.