Where do you want to see a big PBE/Nationals level show?

I have a hunch that one thing might be quality workshops. I feel like the average hobbyist wants a quality exhibit and sales area, some educational opportunities, but also to take something home with them.

I think the big counterpoint to more workshops is capacity. Bonsai Central jammed 17 workshops into a 3-day weekend. If you can fit 8 people into each workshop (which is a lot), that's only 136 spaces for the entire weekend. The PBE was somewhere around 1600 tickets, right? That doesn't count the logistics issue of sourcing all that material too.

Bigger/nerdier seminars would be really fun and scale easily for larger audiences. There's a bunch of people out there who have very niche and deep knowledge, and people attending an expo are the ideal audience for it. I'm kinda bummed that I missed Bill V's presentation on classical bonsai art, that's a topic that kinda hard to research. Kristy Majieske is running a column in the ABS journal on mythology in Asian art -- that'd be another great topic
 
That’s what club shows are. They're usually pretty bad.
Idk if I should take that as an insult or not .. and professionals should be tied to clubs as well.. and they should be there for training not working on your tree and you learn nothing
 
Food trucks are so overpriced .

As someone who has spent plenty of time eating convention center food, every alternative to a food truck sucks. Convention center food stands are usually only open during the weekend -- have you ever seen a quick-service (and typically low-margin) food business that can only stay open when selling on the weekend? That's why it's all crappy and identical Aramark or Sysco vendors. Packing your own lunch is annoying, nearly impossible while travelling, and the PB&J is soggy by the time you get around to eating it
 
Idk if I should take that as an insult or not .. and professionals should be tied to clubs as well.. and they should be there for training not working on your tree and you learn nothing

I mean, you can if you want. Offense is taken, not given, but I can say that none was intended. I’ve been to MANY club shows, they can’t hold a candle to PBE. Even my own club show, where every tree has to be approved and presented with a proper formal display can’t compare to PBE.

The Southern California bonsai club model used to be there was a professional or a semi-professional guy tied to the club with the title of Sensei. Nowadays that’s very rare, my club still has one though, Sensei David Nguy. His role is to teach technique, give advice and answer questions. He’s not there to do the work for you.

The pay to win technique is nothing new in bonsai, in fact that’s the norm in Japan. I’m glad those people exist, they keep the goalpost moving and I can’t begrudge someone for going that route.
 
I like Oakland and I'm sure it's cheaper to do a convention there than in SF which would be swankier but pricier. I stayed in uptown Oakland near the Paramount. Never had an issue walking alone or feeling nervous about my surroundings. (But I am an former urbanite (Seattle) and if anything Oakland is sleepier than Seattle.) The walk to PBE at the Kaiser Arts Center was about 1/2 hour along the lake - super scenic and felt safe. Saw a white pelican on the lake! I took BART back to the hotel when I was lugging pots/trees. I do have family and friends in the Bay Area, but other than trying (and failing) to connect with a sister, didn't visit with anyone.

Food trucks would be great! That was a major oversight. Plus a selection of different foods is needed for those of us who have dietary restrictions.

I'd like to see more demos or even a workshop or two, although I'm well aware of the difficulties of trying to procure workshop materials. An EXPO is not a convention, after all, so maybe it's just going to be demos, lectures, slide shows, etc. I enjoyed the talk by the potters from Japan and the pictures of Tokonome.

All in all, the size of the event was really nice for being intimate yet having a great selection of vendors. Good number of exhibition trees, too.
 
As someone who has spent plenty of time eating convention center food, every alternative to a food truck sucks. Convention center food stands are usually only open during the weekend -- have you ever seen a quick-service (and typically low-margin) food business that can only stay open when selling on the weekend? That's why it's all crappy and identical Aramark or Sysco vendors. Packing your own lunch is annoying, nearly impossible while travelling, and the PB&J is soggy by the time you get around to eating it

All is know is that those burgers and beers that you, me, and @Hartinez stumbled upon were TASTY!

😁😁😁
 
I mean, you can if you want. Offense is taken, not given, but I can say that none was intended. I’ve been to MANY club shows, they can’t hold a candle to PBE. Even my own club show, where every tree has to be approved and presented with a proper formal display can’t compare to PBE.

The Southern California bonsai club model used to be there was a professional or a semi-professional guy tied to the club with the title of Sensei. Nowadays that’s very rare, my club still has one though, Sensei David Nguy. His role is to teach technique, give advice and answer questions. He’s not there to do the work for you.

The pay to win technique is nothing new in bonsai, in fact that’s the norm in Japan. I’m glad those people exist, they keep the goalpost moving and I can’t begrudge someone for going that route.
Right but what’s stopping a show from occurring where professionals and enthusiasts that have trees that go into a show , they have a show like this in Japan as well. They can have the pay to win techniques in the regular shows , I’m talking about strictly a professional and high level amateur show. No client work or anything.
 
Idk if I should take that as an insult or not .. and professionals should be tied to clubs as well.. and they should be there for training not working on your tree and you learn nothing
I think there’s some nuance. Club shows are a great venue to get local hobbyists together and excited about bonsai. But I agree with @Ruddigger that the quality of the average tree in the vast majority of these shows is underwhelming. Wire is messily applied; branches are bent with imprecision and flawed logic; silhouettes are created without deliberate thought. A lot of juvenile styling mistakes at these shows are justified through “this is a departure from tradition and you can’t tell me what’s right or wrong because I’m the artist, not you” or “I’ve been doing this for 30 years and cannot be possibly wrong.”

I think this is it. I’ve been to the two biggest shows bonsai has to offer here in the states. In my eyes they are spectacular. As a bonsai dude, it all makes sense. The trees, the displays, what constitutes good vs bad etc.

but I do feel that these are bonsai shows for bonsai people. At some point more events/shows need to happen, not as bonsai shows but as Art shows with bonsai as a driving medium. Are these shows going to have massive attendance? Maybe not, but at least people will be more aware of this art.

People like @MACH5 @johng and others could easily put on a full show that highlights their own artistic tastes and representations that don’t necessarily follow the rules that are so dam exhausting some times. Even these guys worst trees would bring a wow factor for the average viewer if represented as an artistic composition. This could give freedoms and liberties to create displays that in some cases aren’t even about the tree but make a larger statement. Could be environmental, cultural, political, personal, whatever they desire to represent in their show.

So I guess that’s it for me at least.

More bonsai shows for non bonsai people.

More weekend shows in non traditional settings with non traditional displays.

Expand the appeal

We can talk endlessly about how a RMJ with gnarly deadwood symbolizes life’s tenacity, but these themes usually have to be explicitly told to anyone who isn’t familiar with bonsai. Like calligraphy, bonsai often speaks through understated subtlety, harmony, which finds much resonance in the East. But these nuances are not a priority in Western culture. We often prize bold “message” pieces that shock the viewer with emotion, and bonsai, perceived as a craft here, does not meet that mark. To be blunt, if you’re an average person, even one artistically inclined, the Kokufu prize tree looks and conveys the same message as the best in show in PBE or Europe’s Trophy. You’d have a hard time distinguishing Bjorn’s trees from Shinji Suzuki or Kimura’s. Walter Pall or Ryan’s might look a little different, but the theme is similar enough across any of their trees. “Savor this tree’s [harmony/grandeur/starkness] and nature’s beauty that I have teased out with my technical skill.” Not to say this isn’t a worthy message in and of itself, but I would venture that it is the only expression that bonsai as an art form currently captures and conveys. We only represent and interpret.

IMHO if you want to expand the appeal, expand the art itself. Embrace ways to express that go beyond the natural shape of the tree and the form of its container. Cut 6 yamadori with a chainsaw and leave their raw, dead stumps around one formal upright. Sculpt and paint deadwood in a recognizable figure that still respects the medium’s lines above a bowing stage of foliage. Embrace multimedia in the setting. Is grief a theme in bonsai? Has there ever been a “political” message? Or an assertive opinion about man’s relationship to nature, rather than the reverent respect for the latter that characterizes every bonsai in every master’s garden? These are drastic departures from how we currently create bonsai, but remain either unexplored or taboo.

Executed without mastering the skills demanded for classical/traditional bonsai, such ideas would come off as cheap and infantile, like the banana duct taped to a wall a few years back (still debatable as to whether or not that was art). But put someone skilled to the task and I think the result could both be phenomenally powerful and uniquely American. This land is a marketplace of ideas and a melting pot of cultures - we can do differently.
 
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Right but what’s stopping a show from occurring where professionals and enthusiasts that have trees that go into a show , they have a show like this in Japan as well. They can have the pay to win techniques in the regular shows , I’m talking about strictly a professional and high level amateur show. No client work or anything.

Like a Taikan-ten kind of show? Would be cool for sure. Probably harder to put on I bet. Was that what the Artisans cup was supposed to be, that turned out to be a huge money sink for Ryan Neil.
 
What do I want to see?

3 days, NYC Javits Center, two floors filled with rows and rows and rows of the best trees in the world.

A vendor area so big they have a cool down station because people get exhausted just trying to walk it.

A dozen of the worlds top pros holding workshops with fantastic material available to those who signed up.

A free t-shirt with admission fee.

Beer stations throughout.

ah well, a guy can dream.
 
We can talk endlessly about how a RMJ with gnarly deadwood symbolizes life’s tenacity, but these themes usually have to be explicitly told to anyone who isn’t familiar with bonsai. Like calligraphy, bonsai often speaks through understated subtlety, harmony, which finds much resonance in the East. But these nuances are not a priority in Western culture. We often prize bold “message” pieces that shock the viewer with emotion, and bonsai, perceived as a craft here, does not meet that mark. To be blunt, if you’re an average person, even one artistically inclined, the Kokufu prize tree looks and conveys the same message as the best in show in PBE or Europe’s Trophy. You’d have a hard time distinguishing Bjorn’s trees from Shinji Suzuki or Kimura’s. Walter Pall or Ryan’s might look a little different, but the theme is similar enough across any of their trees. “Savor this tree’s [harmony/grandeur/starkness] and nature’s beauty that I have teased out with my technical skill.” Not to say this isn’t a worthy message in and of itself, but I would venture that it is the only expression that bonsai as an art form currently captures and conveys. We only represent and interpret.

IMHO if you want to expand the appeal, expand the art itself. Embrace ways to express that go beyond the natural shape of the tree and the form of its container. Cut 6 yamadori with a chainsaw and leave their raw, dead stumps around one formal upright. Sculpt and paint deadwood in a recognizable figure that still respects the medium’s lines above a bowing stage of foliage. Embrace multimedia in the setting. Is grief a theme in bonsai? Has there ever been a “political” message? Or an assertive opinion about man’s relationship to nature, rather than the reverent respect for the latter that characterizes every bonsai in every master’s garden? These are drastic departures from how we currently create bonsai, but remain either unexplored or taboo.

Executed without mastering the skills demanded for classical/traditional bonsai, such ideas would come off as cheap and infantile, like the banana duct taped to a wall a few years back (still debatable as to whether or not that was art). But put someone skilled to the task and I think the result could both be phenomenally powerful and uniquely American. This land is a marketplace of ideas and a melting pot of cultures - we can do differently.
I think exactly this. Well put.

Our local show "peoples choice award" never goes to the actual best "bonsai" as we know it, but always goes to the tree that is flowering, or a mildly well done forest. Those types of trees seem to spark an emotion in people that for us bonsai folks just doesn't spark.

To be honest, I listed Sergio and John as examples of people who should hold there own exhibition because I love there trees, style and they have just enough thoughtfulness to play with ideas in a gallery setting. They could both easily carry a show for non bonsai folks on their own. No problem. But I also have plans in the works to put on my own, albeit small, art show here in Abq or in Santa Fe that gives me the opportunity to present, collaborate and discuss this art as just that, an art that can be expressive in so many ways. Not as a bonsai show, but as an art show. its something I've been considering for a while now, and I just recently started laying the ground work for what this could look like in the next 2-3 years. So much of this discussion in my head and discussions I have been having with other local artists and gallery owners, stems from the culturally unique nature of northern New Mexico and the very deep seeded connections with the landscape and its people dating back centuries and centuries. the Good and bad. Exactly what this manifests into, im not entirely sure, but ive begun putting pen to paper to organize my thoughts so when its time to make a statement or announce what it is im attempting, it should at least have a mildly cohesive theme. It may not end up being this world class bonsai event, but it gives small trees in pots an opportunity to weave a story that traditional 2 dimensional or even 3 dimensional art just can't tell.

Bonsai on there own, with traditional rules, and display techniques don't and in many ways, just can't, address those themes I referenced, but in collaboration with other artists, mediums, senses, spaces it can absolutely delve into realms this art hasn't before.

I think one of the biggest hangups with this type of show would be money. Most art shows also sell the art they are showing. I wouldn't be selling my trees, but would probably need to cover any costs of artists I collaborated with or even gallery fees if Im showing at a place with a good reputation. Ive got ideas on my work around though!!

I still LOVE bonsai shows and will continue to go to them and practice at my highest level. If I show trees outside of a bonsai show setting, it is so important to me that I do respect what would traditionally make a great tree, it just doesn't necessarily have to be a world class tree outside of the bonsai world to make a statement.

Also, Banana taped to a wall? I have no idea, but it was in an art gallery wasn't it? lol.
 
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