When should inexperienced bonsai growers shut up and let the experts talk?

[Cajunrider]

He was trying to get people to think and learn through that instead of spoon feeding them the information.

I disagree with the suggestion that his ego fueled his posts. If that was the case,he would still be here because here is where the audience is.

Adair didn't mind being questioned, he enjoys teaching. Someone started to follow him around from thread to thread and bash him and his posts. Guess he got tired of it.

I like Adair posts and learned a lot from them. I know he is busy. Just wish he would come by here now and then. Same with Smoke. I learned from his posts.

What I don’t like are people who don’t recognize the stopping points when they arrive and persist with needless arguments.

 

[Paradox]

I like Adair posts and learned a lot from them. I know he is busy. Just wish he would come by here now and then. Same with Smoke. I learned from his posts.

What I don’t like are people who don’t recognize the stopping points when they arrive and persist with needless arguments.

Totally agree

 

[Glaucus]

Wouldn't Smoke start arguments with people equal or more knowledgeable than him? And then him bringing in his politics out of the blue from the Karaoke Bar because he was sour?
Together with cryptic and confusing replies to beginners?
Education is a skill.

Feels a bit weird talking about him like this as if he never visits anymore, because he does and he might be reading all of this and laughing his ass off.

 

[Paradox]

Wouldn't Smoke start arguments with people equal or more knowledgeable than him? And then him bringing in his politics out of the blue from the Karaoke Bar because he was sour?
Together with cryptic and confusing replies to beginners?
Education is a skill.

Feels a bit weird talking about him like this as if he never visits anymore, because he does and he might be reading all of this and laughing his ass off.

I don't recall him deliberately starting fights with other high level people. I do recall him asking pointed questions of them on things but I don't feel it was just to start a fight. I also don't recall him being overly political in the bonsai threads. There have been others that couldn't leave the politics out of the bonsai threads that I do remember clearly.
I generally avoided the karaoke bar when it became toxic.

There are different methods of educating. One is to spoon feed everything to the student and coddle them along, another is to try and get them to think for themselves. His method is more the latter. While some would disagree, I feel the latter method results in better learning and retention than the former. But that said, in most cases, there does need to a least some basic knowledge instilled before critical thinking can be most effective. However spend any amount of time here and you should start to get a lot of that basic knowledge.

I was subjected to Smokes teaching method when I was new and yes I was a rebellious student until I started to understand that he was trying to get me to think about what I was doing

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I couldn’t disagree more. It was always fundamentally about his ego and garnering attention (positive, negative, didn’t matter as long as he was the center of attention). In fact, even once I’d put him on ignore it was still impossible to really ignore the guy because so many of the posts of others in the threads were responses to his antagonism. He so dominated the conversation that it was still all about him even though I was no longer seeing his posts.

I disagree.
It is easy to misinterpret written words since there is no tone in the text.
It is ok though and I respect your opinion.

 

[BobbyLane]

I don't recall him deliberately starting fights with other high level people. I do recall him asking pointed questions of them on things but I don't feel it was just to start a fight. I also don't recall him being overly political in the bonsai threads. There have been others that couldn't leave the politics out of the bonsai threads that I do remember clearly.
I generally avoided the karaoke bar when it became toxic.

There are different methods of educating. One is to spoon feed everything to the student and coddle them along, another is to try and get them to think for themselves. His method is more the latter. While some would disagree, I feel the latter method results in better learning and retention than the former. But that said, in most cases, there does need to a least some basic knowledge instilled before critical thinking can be most effective. However spend any amount of time here and you should start to get a lot of that basic knowledge.

I was subjected to Smokes teaching method when I was new and yes I was a rebellious student until I started to understand that he was trying to get me to think about what I was doing

Absolutely nothing wrong with the latter approach. I love to see a 'trier' Im more inclined to help someone who's clearly trying rather than the guy who posts the same questions for every new tree he buys.

 

[Glaucus]

Without starting a big academic debate on teaching methods, I would like to carefully point out that research in the last few decades kinda supports this 'spoon feeding'-teaching strategy over the 'make the student think for themselves tough love' teaching approach. That's maybe not what the teacher wants to hear, though. And especially the Japanese bonsai apprentice system is absolutely horrible education practice. And that's not just east vs west or 'we should respect their culture'. kind of thing.
The best teaching is done when you put 'snowflakes' in their 'safe spaces'.

 

[Cajunrider]

Without starting a big academic debate on teaching methods, I would like to carefully point out that research in the last few decades kinda supports this 'spoon feeding'-teaching strategy over the 'make the student think for themselves tough love' teaching approach. That's maybe not what the teacher wants to hear, though. And especially the Japanese bonsai apprentice system is absolutely horrible education practice. And that's not just east vs west or 'we should respect their culture'. kind of thing.
The best teaching is done when you put 'snowflakes' in their 'safe spaces'.

Regardless of whether spoon-feeding or tough love is better, the truth around here is that no one is obligated to spoon-feed another person. For that reason, I usually don’t ask until I have done a reasonable amount of research yet still find myself unsure and wanting more. So it is OK to me if someone asks me if I have thought it through or simply give me a new clue and tell me to search.

 

[Paradox]

Without starting a big academic debate on teaching methods, I would like to carefully point out that research in the last few decades kinda supports this 'spoon feeding'-teaching strategy over the 'make the student think for themselves tough love' teaching approach. That's maybe not what the teacher wants to hear, though. And especially the Japanese bonsai apprentice system is absolutely horrible education practice. And that's not just east vs west or 'we should respect their culture'. kind of thing.
The best teaching is done when you put 'snowflakes' in their 'safe spaces'.

I disagree unless you want a society of drones that dont think for themselves and just parrot/copy whatever the masses pontificate

 

[Smoke]

I agree with all of it....Bwahahahaha......(cough.. cough... sputter..)

 

[Smoke]

Working on trees that would be hard to comprehend....Just turned 68, working on my doctorate in marriage counseling, life is wonderful, thanks for asking.

 

[pandacular]

Working on trees that would be hard to comprehend....Just turned 68, working on my doctorate in marriage counseling, life is wonderful, thanks for asking.

you know, they say a relationship between a tree and it's owner is much like a marriage... just kidding I hope no one would say that. Glad you're doing well, internet stranger, and I think many of us would like to try to comprehend these trees.

 

[Smoke]

you know, they say a relationship between a tree and it's owner is much like a marriage... just kidding I hope no one would say that. Glad you're doing well, internet stranger, and I think many of us would like to try to comprehend these trees.

I started to talk about this tree last Jan. when I dug it. The thread degraded into a pissing match, and once again, I have better things to do with my time than argue with folks. I think most of the time problems could be solved by just having the opposing people post up four or five of their best trees, let the forum decide who the more creative and artistic is between the two and then the forum could just tell the loser to shut the fuck up....but I digress.

I cut all the branches off and then when the time was right I took off half the root mass. In the ole tried and true "wire branches for movement" I decided that I did not want the branches all scarred up. Trident branches will swell over the wire before the shape sets well so I needed to find a better way. This is what I came up with. I run a couple lengths of wire under the pott. Twist loops on the ends. Makes parachutes with sewing plastic canvas leaving the end wires long. Then I use the parachute to ease down the branches into the direction I want them to grow. They grow unhindered, grow fat, with no scars and can be cut back if wished while staying in the parachute. Since my branches in late August had grown sufficiently to hold their shape and were ready for a cut back, I did just that.

 

[Smoke]

The parachutes

 

[Smoke]

Where I am so far. I purchased the pot thru auction in Japan, it is quite large. Lots of work to go but the form is set. 8 months!!!!!!!

 

[pandacular]

Looks very nice. Perhaps you should just take the Walter Pall approach and just come here to post trees and leave! Seems he's had similar issues in the past, but has solved it by letting his trees speak themselves.

 

[Glaucus]

I disagree unless you want a society of drones that dont think for themselves and just parrot/copy whatever the masses pontificate

You think people become 'mindless drones' when they don't have unnecessary difficulties and struggles while learning things like say their electronic engineering degree?

 

[Gabler]

I think most of the time problems could be solved by just having the opposing people post up four or five of their best trees, let the forum decide who the more creative and artistic is between the two and then the forum could just tell the loser to shut the fuck up....but I digress.

Start a thread for it. Seriously. That would be fun to watch. Let's see everyones' four or five best trees.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Start a thread for it. Seriously. That would be fun to watch. Let's see everyones' four or five best trees.

Go start one. I bet Smoke will come and post in it. That it what he wants to see. The trees!

 

[Smoke]

Looks very nice. Perhaps you should just take the Walter Pall approach and just come here to post trees and leave! Seems he's had similar issues in the past, but has solved it by letting his trees speak themselves.

nah...nothing better to do later this afternoon after I cut up what was left of my stand alone patio cover after the Hurricane picked it up and threw it over the top of my house!