When should inexperienced bonsai growers shut up and let the experts talk?

[Deep Sea Diver]

Back to the original OP question.

I guess times I sit back back and listen, or go off site and research on my own, is when a new area of bonsai or technique, style or type of tree is being discussed that I’m not proficient in.

Sometimes this happens frequently, other times not that often…

As far as how to know someone possesses ‘expert’ knowledge… for me it’s when that person is more proficient in an area I am not… and there are many. After all bonsai has a wide footprint of trees, techniques, styles and displays to name a few.

Tree quality doesn’t cut it with me unless I know a specific person has developed that specific tree. To be very frank, I’ve first hand knowledge of a number of folks that bought a nicely designed tree from an auction. or a professional’s lot and not have the knowledge, skills and abilities to properly maintain that tree. (Not saying the professionals don’t deserve credit )

(Or on the other hand buy a tree and have a pro style a tree for a number of years. and win awards over folks that do their own work.)

I do have a whole lot of respect for folks that always strive to give even balanced information to others on this site to those less knowledgeable. These folks are taking time to develop others with hopes someday the recipients of this knowledge will pay these efforts forward to others, Thanks folks!

Now I’m off to fix a fence in the north forty

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[michaelj]

When I lived in Chicago, a group of pretty impressive bonsai enthusiasts used to pay to bring in a bonsai pro from Japan every year to work on their trees (privately). This would have been in '94 or '95. I had the fortunate opportunity one day to "assist" the bonsai master as he was working on the trees of one of my mentors. What I didn't know was that my mentor wasn't going to be there - it was just me and this Japanese master. I remember it clearly, because as we started to work, I asked him a lot of questions. Finally (because he was probably fed up with my chatter) he said "in Japan assistants don't ask questions. They watch and they learn!"

I was initially stunned, and then embarassed. I was about 30 at the time. I zipped my lip, and the next 45 minutes were spent in total silence. And then, as we continued to work together, about every five minutes he would say something. "When you do this, make sure you do that" or "you see this branch - it is no good because of this... remove it". It is amazing how much you learn when you learn to listen.

I struggle to learn just by watching and listening unless the teacher is VERY good. Not just good at what they're teaching, but good at conveying it. I always miss stuff. I always have questions.

 

[Paradox]

I think they meant people like Walter Pall leaving. Not people like Smoke and Brian van Fleet staying.
I don't mean to discredit their work or their helpfulness and kindness. But when debating why some people left, maybe we should talk about the real thing.

Not sure who you are referring to, but Walter does still post here at times and I was speaking about people like smoke and Brian along with Adair.
While Smoke did stir the pot for sure and he was often harsh in his criticism, he does have very nice trees and did try to teach others albeit not always in the best way.

And btw that happened 10 years or more years ago. Good thing I don't remember all the drama and ego's that went around ever since this place started. And not all drama was about bonsai.

Yes I can well remember a lot of very harsh and nasty arguments about off topic things.
It was toxic at times and wasn't good for the forum for sure. A bunch of the egos left when Gregg killed the Teahouse where all the arguing got out of hand and it started to pollute the rest of the forum.

That said, this place is somehow the most active bonsai forum around. So while this place did have it's drama, somehow it beat out on all the other places to discuss bonsai.

Some people have said its because the site isn't heavily moderated or censored.
But I think is also because it is very active and there is a lot of people and information here for people to learn from and with the age of the internet it is easy to come here and ask questions and get information.

 

[Paradox]

Sorry it wasnt the Tea House...lol thats the milder off topic board.
It was the Karoke Bar and it was kind of the wild west kind of board

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I don't think people should shut up but I do think there are times when people should listen more and speak less. I think that can apply to anyone here depending on the topic. None of us knows everything there is to know about bonsai and there is always something to learn.

I've noticed that some highly experienced and knowledgeable people don't seem to post here as much or at all any more in some cases.

Mach5 is one. He still posts but not as much but I think it's because he is a very busy guy and has risen in stature with the bonsai community due to his own efforts and deservedly so.

Brian Van Fleet is still around and someone with trees to back up what he says.
I've learned a lot from his experience.

I've noticed Adair seems to be gone which is a shame. He is another one with the trees to back up his knowledge and experience. He is passionate about bonsai and teaching others. Unfortunately he has been attacked by a few because of his strict adherence to a certain way of doing things and the fact he is not afraid to say it which sometimes comes off as "high and mighty". He is not that at all but the man has trees to back up what he says. I've learned a lot from him too and I miss that he doesn't post here any more. I guess he just got tired of being attacked and I can't blame him.

Smoke is another one that is gone too and also controversial in his "tough love" approach and not afraid to challenge a new person's thought process with the aim of teaching. He is another that has been bashed by others because he isn't afraid to tell it as he sees it. I've been subjected to his teaching methods myself when I was new. I was also taken aback by it at the time but now I see it differently. Now I find myself sounding more like him and Adair and Brian at times when I give advice....lol

The thing often said here is look at the trees those giving advice have. If they have healthy trees that are highly developed and advanced bonsai, that person is worth listening to. Even those who have trees that are developing in the right direction but not quite there yet should have good advice to give. People with sickly trees or trees that are all sticks in pots, might want to be a little more cautious about some of the things they say.

Critical thinking when analyzing any advice given will do you well

The one thing that I can say about Smoke is he would not comment at all if he didn’t care.
He was trying to help even when it was sent in a cryptic or rough manner. It always inspired me to see a reply from him.
Sometimes I find myself doing that too.
It makes for a dramatic aha moment.

 

[Glaucus]

True, Pall still posts occasionally. But he said he didn't like visiting here because of what some were posting in the Karaoke Bar.
I never saw any of the other ones complain about something and tell that made them leave or post less. But I might have missed that.
Would someone like Adair really leave because beginners ask him for advice, but then start to argue with him?

This place has been around for a long time. The internet has really changed. When this place started, Youtube videos were sparse. Internet culture has actually moved away from fora like this one and towards things like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter.
People could post less for many reasons. I don't think one can blame new users for older users leave.
But maybe I missed that drama. Honestly, it seems there is way way less drama here now than way back.

The point that Rockm makes is fair through. Some people post a question and expect other users to just spoon feed them answer for them.
One can argue that they can freely find all the info they want because many questions have been asked and answered many times before.
But the wealth of info on the internet is also a problem. More info means it takes more time to find it and absorb it all.
But in the same vein, if no one asks a question that was already asked before, this place doesn't stay active either.

Newbie users with newbie questions is part of the live vein of this place. Maybe this place is active because older or more experienced users do answer them.
A thread opened by a newbie about a specific tree can very much become intersting if they post years later to show the progression they made.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I can't recall a time when Smoke ever received a bashing that he didn't go out of his way to earn. I mean, it says a lot when a guy creates multiple accounts on the forum as a way to evade people's ignore lists because so many people have blocked him.

I don't think you or Adair or Brian sound anything like him when giving advice and I mean that in the most complementary way possible.

If Smoke beat up someone it was usually that they wouldn’t show their trees or he believed they could do better. I felt complimented when he corrected my work. It meant that he knew that I could do more.

 

[Lorax7]

If Smoke beat up someone it was usually that they wouldn’t show their trees or he believed they could do better. I felt complimented when he corrected my work. It meant that he knew that I could do more.

I couldn’t disagree more. It was always fundamentally about his ego and garnering attention (positive, negative, didn’t matter as long as he was the center of attention). In fact, even once I’d put him on ignore it was still impossible to really ignore the guy because so many of the posts of others in the threads were responses to his antagonism. He so dominated the conversation that it was still all about him even though I was no longer seeing his posts.

 

[_#1_]

I would be honored if @Smoke smacked with some knowledge

 

[namnhi]

Trimming to develop ramification: Looks great for a few years then realize that all the ramification has overthickened the branches and need to start over.
Developing branches quickly then finally realizing the straight sections with little taper don't look good on the twisted trunk. Chop and start over.
Not removing redundant shoots on JM and, after a few years finding they have caused inverse taper in the trunk and branches.
Trimming smaller trees around the edges of a group more than the taller central trees in an effort to thicken the taller trees and retard the outer ones. Eventually discover the extra shoots and more branches on the trimmed, smaller trees and extra root run near the outside of the group has cause those trees to thicken way more than anticipated.
Not root trimming often enough because others say it may harm the tree - leads to root congestion. The trees are dying in spring and early summer because the pots can no longer hold enough water.
Leaving roots long at first transplant when there's only the stump to support because others say shortening them might kill or slow the tree. Discover years later that the roots won't fit in a bonsai pot and have to shorten them way back but now the tree has established, well ramified branches to support without roots.

That's only a few. Lots more......

Love this!

 

[nuttiest]

do you have any suggestions for a rule of thumb to ascertain when it's time to shut up and wait for an expert to chime in

How about this rule:
When someone puts up some REAL collected material for advice... maybe then an EXPERT will appear
long as its piss-poor nursery can stuff ... anyone can answer.

(yeah, i found the karaoke bar)

 

[Adamski77]

One tip I've found is to use Google or DuckDuckGo instead of the forum's search. site:bonsainut.com "trunk chop" beech can give very different results. Search engines can value proximity or repetition of phrases more than the forum's search feature can. Not a criticism of the forum's search, just a different helpful tool

So true… I found out that using simple google search gives great results related to bonsainut forum.

 

[leatherback]

Would someone like X really leave because beginners ask him for advice, but then start to argue with him?

Absolutely.
There are fora where I do not go anymore for this reason. It is often not just the new person but also a few that have less experience and based on some website they read feel they know best. Once you have a few persons that constantly counter your posts, why stay.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Bonsai Nut has been the victim of its own success. By the way, this is a phenomenon as old as the Internet itself. As soon as something gets successful/popular, there are an influx of newcomers who alter the thing in question in ways that are hard to control. For this site in particular, I think that moment was the start of the pandemic, when a bazillion new beginners joined.

This same phenomenon is very well-documented on Reddit, which is called the rise of "shallow content." At first, you can have a site where like-minded people intelligently debate the best way to trim their beards. But as more and more people join, at a certain point a critical mass is formed and all of the top-rated posts are memes about trimming beards. I.e. shallow content that takes less than a second to evaluate.

Obviously the way to deal with this here is to implement a rule that say you can't post until you have posted 1000 times.

 

[R0b]

On topic, I am one of the pandemic newbies and despite taking Bonsai as a serious hobby and art form I consider myself a beginner. I do have half a life in horticulture behind me so sometimes I do have something meaningful to ad and I will do so and on some of the horticultural aspects I am definitely not a beginner as all the other experience helped me understand the tree growing part. If you are not sure as a beginner as a question instead of just giving an opinion.

“Why didn’t you?“ the worst thing that can happen it will lead to a discussion compared to “I would have done this, or you should do this” can be seen as aggressive and offensive.

On the topic of online communication I also have half a life behind me and start to be at the age I no longer feel the need to win arguments and start to know my own mistakes and pitfalls. I greatly appreciate Walter’s “my trees can be discussed but not necessarily with me”. If people annoy or trigger me I just block them which unfortunately already has also happened here.

 

[BobbyLane]

Never felt the need to put anyone on ignore, I mean whats the point, you will still see their posts anyway when browsing without being logged in

 

[R0b]

Never felt the need to put anyone on ignore, I mean whats the point, you will still see their posts anyway when browsing without being logged in

Always logged on, for me is either ignoring or telling them what I think which is a waste of energy.

 

[Cajunrider]

When an expert launches a 1001 Arabian nights lamentation of how precious and favorite bonsai were lost. Be quiet and learn about shits you shouldn’t do to your bonsai.

 

[Paradox]

The one thing that I can say about Smoke is he would not comment at all if he didn’t care.
He was trying to help even when it was sent in a cryptic or rough manner. It always inspired me to see a reply from him.
Sometimes I find myself doing that too.
It makes for a dramatic aha moment.

He was trying to get people to think and learn through that instead of spoon feeding them the information.

I disagree with the suggestion that his ego fueled his posts. If that was the case,he would still be here because here is where the audience is.

Adair didn't mind being questioned, he enjoys teaching. Someone started to follow him around from thread to thread and bash him and his posts. Guess he got tired of it.

 

[Nybonsai12]

When should inexperienced bonsai growers shut up and let the experts talk?​

The correct answer is at all times.