When should inexperienced bonsai growers shut up and let the experts talk?

When I can give examples from my own work and knowledge base then I feel comfortable weighing in.
I try to give examples and references for further learning on the topic or where I have read the information to back up the theory.
Be careful that you are not just “parroting” what you have seen others post. Without the first hand experience to back it up. Just because you may have trunk chopped a ficus in winter does not mean you should or that it is a good practice.
 
Just in the time that I have been here, it seems like more and more of the experienced people/experts have left the forum or only visit sporadically.
I don't doubt this is true, but I also found a thread that was almost a decade old saying the same thing was going on back then.

I imagine that there has been an influx of beginners. I would love to get my hands on some BNut stats... sign up rates over time would be the first thing I'd check.
 
I think saying something wrong or controversial (not because you want to do so but just because you’re beginner and might be wrong) usually sparks a lot of debate. You get bashed, disliked and ignored probably a lot but you know what… to hell with that in the name of the science and hobby ;). Other people including yourself will learn. After experts step in you probably should shut up and listen but as an opening giving your idea is probably not all wrong.
 
When I comes to discussing design choices or art theory, I feel comfortable enough to comment or add to the discussion. Partly due to my experience with art and partly due to the idea that adding to the conversation can help a person formulate (or gain insight into) a design path.

Horticultural wise, I only really comment or add to the discussion when it comes to things that I know about or have a pretty good idea around it. I tend to preface a lot of my advice with a disclaimer referring to my inexperience for two reasons. One would be to let the person know before reading that what I say could be wrong or misinformed. Secondly, I preface it in the hopes that the person does not take my contributions as inherently right or correct and to form their own opinion.

Part of my interests revolve around the knowledge of a topic. I research heavily into topics and read through published scientific articles (I've read through the entirety of Seed Storage Behavior while figuring out how to best preserve my seeds I collected.) So I tend to welcome conversations that get into the hows and why's. It is also why I like to explore lesser used species for bonsai.
 
I think that beginners know not to comment on the artistic element of bonsai.

When it comes to plant physiology or horticulture, I would say those that are expert at bonsai who grow very high quality bonsai can be the biggest sources of misinfo.

I was listening to Ryan Neil's video on fertilizer. And they have a fertilizer and soil consultant on. And there are a lot of iffy things that are probably not true or are misrepresenting things.
They don't claim to have all the answers either, while they are both considered experts. But this just goes to show that when experts try to put their own experience into actual science and actual theories, even if they have a lab and hundreds of trees to test stuff on, they still can't get at good truths. Out of all the bonsai guru's, I think Ryan seems to stay most closely to the actual science. But even me being two steps separated in another field, my bullshit alert goes off every once in a while.
I think it is still good qualtiy stuff that people need to talk about, though. We have these theories about auxin, which kinda seemed true. But now we are finding out it is quite wrong and things are 100x more complicated.

You can always share your experiences. I don't really think beginners need to 'shut up'.
 
Agree that even many experts have developed some odd reasons for doing certain things.
One of our problems is that we are dealing with biology and exceptions abound. Need to accept there is usually at least one other way to get similar results.
Another problem is the timeframes. We make assumptions on a single incident or result and rarely wait the full cycle or set up enough trials to check if the results are valid or just coincidence.
I've experienced multiple times where I thought I knew what I was doing and results were good for 5 or 10 years before noticing that a particular practice had negative effects. The long timeframes in bonsai growth and development can sometimes lead us in the wrong direction for a while.

Personally, I like to listen to everything, consider it all and finally, if it still seems sound, try it out to see what results I get under conditions in my garden.
 
ve experienced multiple times where I thought I knew what I was doing and results were good for 5 or 10 years before noticing that a particular practice had negative effects. The long timeframes in bonsai growth and development can sometimes lead us in the wrong direction for a while.

Do any examples come to mind?
 
I'm not an expert, but I've been here a while. In that time, I've seen beginners here move from trying to grow and design really bad sticks in pots to growing trees that are vastly (and I mead VASTLY) better than mine. Some have begun their own bonsai business. It's rewarding if I had anything to do with that progress.

Even though I've been at this for a while, I still have people (in person and online) whose opinions and capabilities I value and take advantage of. Mainly that involves listening--listening closely and keeping my mouth shut. Thinking that all advice from anywhere is equal in value is a winding path to nowhere, particularly in this age of instant info on-demand. The amount of BS beginners have to wade through these days online is mind-boggling. And yes, some "true" info from experts can be conflicting--there are many paths up the bonsai mountain.

Beginners SHOULD ask questions, LOTS of questions. There's not much value in reading everything and not asking for more detail or insight.

However, some beginners (and they are a minority, a small minority) don't listen. They're trying to confirm stupid shit they've latched onto in some idiotic video and want to justify doing it. Others fancy themselves as renegades who ignore rules and conventions (which is fine, up to a point). They argue and argue tirelessly and endlessly about why they're right and the advice they've asked for from more experienced people is simply wrong. Those kinds of interactions put people off, particularly when they devolve into insults and ignorant challenges. Several very high-profile bonsaists have left here because of stuff like that. Some still post, but mostly won't respond to questions in-depth as well.

When you find yourself arguing with someone who has first-hand knowledge of what you've asked (and has the trees to show it), it may be time to shut up and listen a bit, then do further research and reconsider what you think. The same can apply to more experienced people as well.
 
Agree that even many experts have developed some odd reasons for doing certain things.
One of our problems is that we are dealing with biology and exceptions abound. Need to accept there is usually at least one other way to get similar results.
Another problem is the timeframes. We make assumptions on a single incident or result and rarely wait the full cycle or set up enough trials to check if the results are valid or just coincidence.
I've experienced multiple times where I thought I knew what I was doing and results were good for 5 or 10 years before noticing that a particular practice had negative effects. The long timeframes in bonsai growth and development can sometimes lead us in the wrong direction for a while.

Personally, I like to listen to everything, consider it all and finally, if it still seems sound, try it out to see what results I get under conditions in my garden.

I think you realize this, but there is actually no way around this. You kinda need to be bullshitting like this. Because you are taking your experiences, which aren't scientific experiments, and you try to put them into words so you can share experienced with others.
But then you also ground these experiences in actual scientific knowledge. And because biology is so much more complicated than what we can reasonable understand, we have to also simplify like several orders of magnitude.
Which is why people talk about 'auxin' as if it is just one thing. And they ignore that almost all plants have like 20+ different transcreation factors that respond to auxin, up or downregulating hundreds of genes.
And that even for a very simple organism like a liverwort, that only has 3 (known) auxin response factors, we already cannot get a mathematical model that describes how it functions exactly, because there are already too many options.
It is like auxin is a universal hormone that depending on everything else can mean anything. Like the plant has a way to communicate/regulate many different things using the same signal/hormone. And that all these different signals that have nothing to do with each other, all use auxin as a medium. Like how sound waves are a medium for language.
But in the bonsai world, we like to connect auxin to apical dominance as if a plant only has two modes of growth. And that auxin explains this. Which works very well for explaining how to prune bonsai.

Another good example is nutrient deficiencies. That's so complicated in itself. But often we like to say things like 'phosphorus drives root growth' or 'nitrogen drives needle elongation' or 'magnesium produces chlorophyll'.
 
Just in the time that I have been here, it seems like more and more of the experienced people/experts have left the forum or only visit sporadically. Even so, I am SO thankful for all of the advice and information that I have received here. I am also thankful for those more learned individuals that have stayed to guide us less experienced. I try and only comment on things I have experienced and what has worked or not worked for me.
It is the nature of the Internet and life. I don't doubt that half of the people who were members here the first five years don't even keep bonsai any longer. Or they get tired of the arguments, or repeating the same content over and over, or any number of other annoying things that come with an Internet forum. That said, the art of bonsai is almost uniquely well-suited towards a forum format - because you can have threads that last for years, if not decades. And I have always felt that this site plays a unique role as a springboard into the art form - and as a conversion path to get people to go from a Home Depot mallsai to taking an intensive with Boon. Heck, some of the members here have gone on to apprenticeships in Japan. But at the end of the day it IS a social platform, and many of the people who come here are often just here for the camaraderie. I still learn things here every day - it keeps me hopping. The most recent - how to get a tree DNA tested at the University of Utah :)
 
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It is the nature of the Internet and life. I don't doubt that half of the people who were members here the first five years don't even keep bonsai any longer. Or they get tired of the arguments, or repeating the same content over and over, or any number of other annoying things that come with an Internet forum. That said, the art of bonsai is almost uniquely well-suited towards a forum format - because you can have threads that last for years, if not decades. And I have always felt that this site plays a unique role as a springboard into the art form - and as a conversion path to get people to go from a Home Depot mallsai to taking an intensive with Boon. Heck, some of the members here have gone on to apprenticeships in Japan. But at the end of the day it IS a social platform, and anyone who comes here often is just here for the camaraderie. I still learn things here every day - keeps me hopping. The most recent - how to get a tree DNA tested at the University of Utah :)
Listed in bold is the reason why I have the species study threads for BC and Mayhaw. By luck, I have the opportunity to have immersion experiences with these two species. Even though I am a bonsai beginner, I am in a position to gather lots of information, and I am able to sacrifice some trees for the sake of knowledge. I can make mistakes and learn from them. Hopefully, when my time at Bonsai Nut comes to an end, I leave behind something that can benefit other beginners like me now.
 
Listed in bold is the reason why I have the species study threads for BC and Mayhaw. By luck, I have the opportunity to have immersion experiences with these two species. Even though I am a bonsai beginner, I am in a position to gather lots of information, and I am able to sacrifice some trees for the sake of knowledge. I can make mistakes and learn from them. Hopefully, when my time at Bonsai Nut comes to an end, I leave behind something that can benefit other beginners like me now.

That's the other half of the reason I'm here.
 
Never.

Talk, share, critique.

Give good advice, give bad advice. Do whatever you want.

Conversation is what makes Bnut great.

Besides, online advice is inherently difficult, so pretty much all the advice we give is decent at best.

If want real answers, seek out (& pay for) a 1:1 with a professional you like and respect.

Otherwise, take all online advice with a grain of salt. ✌🏻
 
Just in the time that I have been here, it seems like more and more of the experienced people/experts have left the forum or only visit sporadically. Even so, I am SO thankful for all of the advice and information that I have received here. I am also thankful for those more learned individuals that have stayed to guide us less experienced. I try and only comment on things I have experienced and what has worked or not worked for me.
Carol,
Most experts are probably too old for the computer or have move to the other side. This is a hobby for old farts you know.
 
I think silencing conversations can be a bad thing even if the person offering advice does not know what they are talking about or the person receiving the advice doesn’t like (but still appreciates) that persons input. If someone is providing information that may not be correct without malicious intent , then it’s a learning experience when that person gets corrected on the topic at hand.. now expert advice on care / horticultural/ timing techniques is more vital than asking for input on the design of a tree .. that is way more subjective and there are many schools of thought on how to approach design.
 
Carol,
Most experts are probably too old for the computer or have move to the other side. This is a hobby for old farts you know.

At the ripe old age of 28, it's difficult for me to keep up with these newfangled trends like computaters and the interwebs. Now, everyone's talking about some guy named Al and his chat teepee, who's gonna change everything. I don't know how I'm gonna keep up.
 
Just in the time that I have been here, it seems like more and more of the experienced people/experts have left the forum or only visit sporadically. Even so, I am SO thankful for all of the advice and information that I have received here. I am also thankful for those more learned individuals that have stayed to guide us less experienced. I try and only comment on things I have experienced and what has worked or not worked for me.
If they left behind viewable content and text, they're still valuable members of the forum. Just takes a bit of digging to find what you need most of the time. People want information quick and fast now, nobody has the time to sift through countless posts, I didnt mind doing that when I first got in the hobby, was a lurker here for about 3 years before even posting.
 
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