What defines a Good Bonsai from the Also Rans....

[Bolero]

Sorce said:
Traditional could be defined as the 1920's to 1940'sish bonsai, which one could argue are like your trees...a little wild!

Thank you for the compliment...

"Traditional to Exceptional" to me implies covering a range, that is what I was trying to imply...

 

[sorce]

. Can you imagine being the guy who Fujikawa-san points to and says, "put this in the van and drive it safely back to the nursery."

I was just watching Bjorns vlog driving trees around....
F that!

Thank you so much Brian!
I have to say, you are the most balanced help on this forum.
Nice and direct.
Self dug or imported.
A couple climates of experience...

covering a range, that is what I was trying to imply...

If I had one person on earth to learn from, it would be you!

Sincere thanks!

@Bolero now I understand!
Thank you!

Sorce

 

[chicago1980]

Thanks you OP for the topic. While contentious, there are examples of high quality bonsai posted. Bonsai!

 

[Bolero]

Thanks you OP for the topic. While contentious, there are examples of high quality bonsai posted. Bonsai!

Thanks to everyone for the comments, advice & opinions...
I've been doing Bonsai for many, many, many years & tears and have come to the Conclusion as I posted in my OP and find it very gratifying to have all the response...Thank you

 

[chicago1980]

A good bonsai starts here for me.

 

[M. Frary]

Comparing Vance's trees and Adair's trees is like comparing Michigan Apples and Georgia Peaches

And they're both of them masters. Probably between the both of those two guys and AL Keppler I've learned the most about bonsai.

 

[sorce]

And they're both of them masters.

Absolutely!

Not in all regards...
But you can almost say that neither one of them can do what the other does.

It is this near complete separation of "interests" that leaves me confused about the OP statement!

But I'm sure Bolero has a good reasoning.

Personally, I enjoy the realization, that's why I love it here.

With the proper discipline, anyone can become a master.

Bits and pieces of knowledge from around the globe, and a whole lot of time, that's how I'm going to make my trees amazing.

Thanks for that!

Sorce

 

[Bolero]

Sorce said:
It is this near complete separation of "interests" that leaves me confused about the OP statement!
But I'm sure Bolero has a good reasoning.

Bolero said:
What defines a Good Bonsai from the Also Rans....

Well let me explain my thinking or reasoning for my opening Title of the OP...

I've seen thousands and thousands of Bonsai in my life and travels and I have determined, in my thinking, that all the Really Good or Better Bonsai have several things in common and they are what I posted in my OP...

I also think most all Bonsai Gardening is a great endeavor and is to be respected by all in the Bonsai Arena, Nursery stock, PreBonsai, Yamadori, Classical, Naturalistic, Etc, Etc, Etc....

However all the Really Good and or Better Bonsai have several things in common and they are what I posted in my OP...

When I said the "Also Rans" I was implying anything other than a Good Bonsai as stated...I think now that "Also Ran" is a bad connotation and leaves a negative perception, sorry I used it, I should have said "from the others".

 

[sorce]

When I said the "Also Rans" I was implying anything other than a Good Bonsai as stated...I think now that "Also Ran" is a bad connotation and leaves a negative perception, sorry I used it, I should have said "from the others".

I don't think it is negative...

I didn't know what it meant....
And didn't expect this to turn into much of a thread at first.

But when I did look it up, because I knew it mustn't have been a typo, I took it as...

"What is bonsai for those of us who really don't care about what "others" are doing?"

And I got respect for that in the spiritual sense....

But being my own worst enemy,
I also believe the opposite end of the spectrum.

We should only present excellent Bonsai in Excellent and growing public shows.

But that is only out of respect for the Japanese tradition.

I believe we are all here to make our own selves happy with our trees, But, we also all have the responsibility to help each other grow, as artists, gardeners, people.

I'm having a crazy emotional highly energetic day myself!
Growing, and the list of people here to thank for it is over 10k now!

Sorce

 

[milehigh_7]

Absolutely!



With the proper discipline, anyone can become a master.



Sorce

I disagree... They might be able to keep something alive in a pot but I have seen American Idol auditions, not everyone has the capability to even be good.

 

[sorce]

I disagree... They might be able to keep something alive in a pot but I have seen American Idol auditions, not everyone has the capability to even be good.

I said can Not will!

I don't believe in limitations.

Short the ones folks put on themselves.

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

Just to demonstrate how subjective it is look at these 2 trees:

To me, a good bonsai:








To me, a crap bonsai. (And remember we go by the image as presented. NOT with potential in mind)






A good bonsai...





Also ran...


Now according to the OP. There should be ''good'' trunks - yep they all have good trunks
Excellent and well defined foliage - yep, all have that. How can a tree not have excellent and well defined foliage?
Good bark and movement - check
Traditional to (whatever ''exceptional'' styling means) - well they are certainly all traditional.
Where they differ is what is considered exceptional to whom.

Completely subjective.
Therefore, ''Good bonsai'' can only be defined in your own head. Not by an arbitrary set of rules. The question should be, what defines a good bonsai to YOU, and why?
Apart from horticulture and technique, this is really the most interesting subject on a forum IMO.

 

[ColinFraser]

Taper, taper (yes, literati are exceptions), taper, and nebari. Oh, and taper

 

[ColinFraser]

Well I think it comes down to this....

A really good Trunk with good Bark & Trunk Movement...

Excellent & well defined Foliage...

Traditional to Exceptional Styling....

Well there you have it....Everything else is just So So Bonsai Gardening...

What's your best bonsai, and what makes it better than your other trees?

 

[sorce]

good bonsai..

I like your outlook Michael.

While I fully appreciate what it takes to make a "highly refined broccolli"...
They simply don't look like trees!

I like the berries one you like, but all the straight up branches make it look like a hedge.

But as far as potential there, I would totally prefer that one, just with minor canopy tweaking, over the other.

Thanks for continuing to post.
I am learning a lot about your views which I used to be confused about.
Defending your views without losing it, has been enjoyable to watch, as I saw a couple bullets shot your way that you dodged with grace!

Cheers Mate!

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

I like your outlook Michael.

While I fully appreciate what it takes to make a "highly refined broccolli"...
They simply don't look like trees!

I like the berries one you like, but all the straight up branches make it look like a hedge.

But as far as potential there, I would totally prefer that one, just with minor canopy tweaking, over the other.

Thanks for continuing to post.
I am learning a lot about your views which I used to be confused about.
Defending your views without losing it, has been enjoyable to watch, as I saw a couple bullets shot your way that you dodged with grace!

Cheers Mate!

Sorce

Yeah Sorce, with the first pyracantha, I'd be inclined to shorten the back part to make it a little more domed , but not too much. But look at the interest in the branches. It speaks of it's history. More than one branch from the same spot, no hang up about the triangle,....I love that! More people would prefer the second one but then again, more people would prefer the Bachelor instead of Life on Earth. I guess it's the difference between lots of wire and fast results compared to lots of time and a pair of scissors.
I went to an exhibition just today of Aussie Native Bonsai. There were both kinds there but natural is getting more attention now! It's only natural.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

I HATE THIS THREAD!
Actually, I think I'll save it in faves to look back on as my LOVE/HATE thread.
Until reading through it, I had this nagging "something" that from time to time ....bothers... me.
Bonsai ain't sposed ta BOTHER a feller.

Bonsai Nut summed it up with, "It has to move me emotionally. It has to have a "wow" factor."

I don't know about the "WOW" but I can sure understand the essence of a lot of this thread in seeking ....

.....................EVOCATIVE !!!

Man, what a sumbitch of a word applied to bonsai.
Try to define, "essence."

I can surely now recognize my misconception of that.

What does the tree ...EVOKE?

Does it evoke the memory of the spider mites? The broken branch? The time it got too DRY? The time it got too WET? Sheeze, it's endless.

But not really IF I can transform my concern with technical issues such as nebari or jin or shari and get to the ESSENCE of the damn thing. Get out of the narrow focus on ELEMENTS and try to gain a sense of ENTIRE ART!

I...think.... I can go out and look through different eyes now and maybe satisfy myself. (without going insane or getting warts, of course. )

It's gonna be a sea change. Not TOO drastic, as many of my trees DO "transport" me to a reminder of a place or emotion. But trying to learn to do it INSTINCTIVELY.... is a challenge for me to transform from an "advice seeker" to an artistic "aspiration. "
I hope I can succeed and think I will if I refer occasionally to this DAMN thread.

After reading THIS DAMN thread I wanna go back and dump a lot of my other threads.

I won't as I need the reminder of how not to confine it to a "wax on/wax off" chore and to a "LOOK INTO IT" mindset.

Suddenly, my thread about making a Spirea look ....."cuter"....... pisses me off.

I look at the lil thing again and can now SEE what made me think it was "cute." The branch on the left just reminds me of a tree in a field where I could hang a tire swing or bonk my head walking under it.
BUT IT LOOKS LIKE A TREE IN ESSENCE!

(to ME)

In fact, when I end this opus, I'm gonna go out and tilt a couple branches UP from where I wired them in obeisance to the damn "levels,....... LEVELS...Buster" command.
Gonna look at some others too to see if any changes would work to accomplish this indescribable "feeliing."

Bolero, thanks for starting this DAMN THREAD !!

 

[Jrs1672]

I read a quote once, wish I could remember who said it, that has always stuck with me is that Life's 3 mysteries are love, art and religion. Who we love, the art that appeals, and the religion or lack thereof that you follow are each subjective and individual. And bonsai is art.
In trying to put my thought into words on what separates the good from the exceptional, I need to put it into the context of retail. I am the buyer for a high-end luxury boutique so it is my job to be the curator for the items that we sell. Traditional(Good) appeals to the vast majority of people and selling those items is what keeps us in business but finding the exceptional items for the clients that I know can appreciate it has separated us from others in the same market. My clients for the exceptional certainly see the beauty in the good. Good is where they began their journey, but they have seen it before too many times now and consider it predictable and common. They want to see something that doesn't abandoned tradion but still surprises them in some way. They took the 100s, or 10000's of items they have seen, education of the subject, processed it all together over time along with their own experiences and the result is that their good taste level has elevated. They are seeing every detail of an item and comparing it with everything they have seen before. They "Get it". They will have different personal responses to any particular item but they will pretty much agree on whether that item is good or exceptional. Some people are born "getting it", some evolve to "getting it", and some people, no matter what, never will. For those people, they may or may not see tradional beauty in the exceptional but it doesn't fit within the boundaries of their expectations. But the more they see and learn will expand those boundaries and if it is meant to be, one day they too will "get it".

Some people just have bad taste though. Luckily for them, there is a lot of ugly to go around. Don't be that person.

James

 

[sorce]

@Mike Corazzi

I kinda don't know what just happened...

But it seems like you just had an aha moment!

I'm happy for you!

The only thread you might should think about having deleted is the one with the outdoor lights!

I wish you were a bit less mysterious!
I like you a lot!

Sorce

 

[Bolero]

Jrs1672 said:
In trying to put my thought into words on what separates the good from the exceptional...

I think of Good as having all the attributes of the OP...
I think of Exceptional as a Good Bonsai that wins at the Show....