US NATIONAL SHOHIN BONSAI EXHIBITION

[watchndsky]

Try to put things into perspective: How much does it cost to go to the Supper Bowl, or the World Series, or the Stanley Cup? Those events are very expensive, many of us long timers will never be able to afford this considering how our health care is falling apart and there are more expensive things to spend our money on than sports or bonssai-------------------??! Just because someone is new to bonsai does not mean they do not have goals to aspire to. When you try to eliminate goals to be achieved you remove the pride of accomplishment and personally this is one of the problems I have with bonsai today; it don't mean nutten any more.

i wouldnt know cause i dont watch sports - but someone interested in learning about football probably isnt going to choose the super bowl for their first introduction to the sport. i doubt they would enjoy/understand as much as someone who had been watching awhile, understood the rules, terminology strategy rivalry etc.

instead they are probably going to watch tv with friends who explain the rules, etc and if the bug bites - eventually one day they catch a game.

i think the same would apply to a newbie shoveling out 400 bucks for a demo. if they want to - more power to them - but why would they spend that much for something they may not even want to pursue?

all i know is i have a shit ton of money sitting in my backyard with nobody to give them to when i die. i thought part of the mystique, appeal, philosphy behind bonsai was the perpetuity of the tree over generations. that means more to me than the price of admission.

 

[twisted trees]

... i wanted to know if it was free.

The exhibition and vendors are free. I believe parking may be as well.

 

[watchndsky]

The exhibition and vendors are free. I believe parking may be as well.

EXCELLENT!!!!! - now we can move on!!

 

[rockm]

you know this is getting a bit ridiculous. maybe im rushing to type and not explaining myself or people are rushing to read and not hearing me - but either way.....

i m pretty sure i have a grasp on how money gets made, and having been a part of the nc expo - i agree and understand your point about substantial tax support. my only point in that statement was that (while not free) there is a significant overhead with many of those areas that is not applicable to this event. this even isnt at a hotel and the "airlines that should be free" and other args are not even applicable in this instance. it is not an ongoing event requiring utilities, maintenance, employees, insurance, etc - so i think a bit of perspective is in order there. but whatever....

my initial side comment (no idea why this is such a source of contention) is that for newcomers who are not invested in the hobby - charging 50-90 bucks per person wont fly and wont draw new people in when there are cheaper or even free ways to spend their time and money.

thats it - i wanted to know if it was free because i try to promote bonsai to newcomers who show some minimal interest beyond reading a book from the library.

thats all - why all the drama around that? people who expect more than viewing can pay more and get more in terms of dinners, demos whatever- im not condemning that? im not attacking bill or anyone else who are trying to earn a living?

for the record- bill has made over 1400 off of me personally off the sell of his trees- clearly i am NOT attacking his efforts to earn a living.

I guess the tone of your previous posts lead me to read a lot of what you're posted in a different light. Yeah, $50-90 bucks is a lot of money for anyone to see a demo...but I can't get behind your basic premise, that a beginner would want to drive to New York to see a bonsai show. The show isn't aimed at them. It's aimed at people like you and me who spend money to see a relatively arcane demonstration from some guy with long hair and a lot of trees hack at them.

 

[watchndsky]

I guess the tone of your previous posts lead me to read a lot of what you're posted in a different light. Yeah, $50-90 bucks is a lot of money for anyone to see a demo...but I can't get behind your basic premise, that a beginner would want to drive to New York to see a bonsai show. The show isn't aimed at them. It's aimed at people like you and me who spend money to see a relatively arcane demonstration from some guy with long hair and a lot of trees hack at them.

i probably did have a tone - i didnt appreciate the snarkiness from paradox and im sick to boot - so im probably less jovial than usual.

my premise wasnt that a beginner would drive to ny - this show is held in kannapolis (same venue as silhouette show). its central location to the triad and charlotte makes its an easy drive for anyone even slightly interested in seeing what its about. that kind of accessibility makes it a much greater attraction for newcomers.

dont know how it is in your area but bonsai is not very common where i live. i'd like to see that change. no one gives simple demos and speeches at local garden centers anymore and there is nothing being done to promote the hobby. (charlotte or raleigh may be different i can only speak to the w-s area) . so i was excited and optimistic when kannapolis became a place for shows. otherwise it was a once a year opportunity and (much longer drive) to make it to the expo in asheville. (for comparison in all the years i attended and invited folks to that venue only 2 people ever made it there due to the extended travel and thats a much bigger show).

 

[twisted trees]

I guess the tone of your previous posts lead me to read a lot of what you're posted in a different light. Yeah, $50-90 bucks is a lot of money for anyone to see a demo...but I can't get behind your basic premise, that a beginner would want to drive to New York to see a bonsai show. The show isn't aimed at them. It's aimed at people like you and me who spend money to see a relatively arcane demonstration from some guy with long hair and a lot of trees hack at them.

EXCELLENT!!!!! - now we can move on!!

 

[twisted trees]

It's aimed at people like you and me who spend money to see a relatively arcane demonstration from some guy with long hair and a lot of trees hack at them.

I believe only Kathy Shaner has long hair and she's definitely not a guy. Suthin on the other hand...well...

 

[Vance Wood]

i wouldnt know cause i dont watch sports - but someone interested in learning about football probably isnt going to choose the super bowl for their first introduction to the sport. i doubt they would enjoy/understand as much as someone who had been watching awhile, understood the rules, terminology strategy rivalry etc.

instead they are probably going to watch tv with friends who explain the rules, etc and if the bug bites - eventually one day they catch a game.

i think the same would apply to a newbie shoveling out 400 bucks for a demo. if they want to - more power to them - but why would they spend that much for something they may not even want to pursue?

all i know is i have a shit ton of money sitting in my backyard with nobody to give them to when i die. i thought part of the mystique, appeal, philosphy behind bonsai was the perpetuity of the tree over generations. that means more to me than the price of admission.

I've got the same problem but that's no one's fault respectfully--- but your own.

 

[my nellie]

... ...all i know is i have a shit ton of money sitting in my backyard with nobody to give them to when i die. i thought part of the mystique, appeal, philosphy behind bonsai was the perpetuity of the tree over generations. that means more to me than the price of admission.

I can assume your kids aren't interested... Then if this is the case you, can give them away by all means to an arboretum, cannot you?

 

[Vance Wood]

I can assume your kids aren't interested... Then if this is the case you, can give them away by all means to an arboretum, cannot you?

I understand his problem every body is going to face this sooner or later, we are going to out grow our ability to properly care for our trees and have to hand them off in one form or another. Most arboretums are not interested because they are not equipped to take care of them.

 

[watchndsky]

I can assume your kids aren't interested... Then if this is the case you, can give them away by all means to an arboretum, cannot you?

nah - shes pretty much sick of them by now.

possibly. there has been some talk of a local garden site starting a bonsai area (less than 30 minutes away)but that never went anywhere. and there were only a couple members that were in the local club. im not sure they even meet anymore. (there were only around 4-5 and that was back before my work took off and i could attend). the state arboretum could probably take some of the more refined pieces, but they arent close and im sure wouldnt be interested in taking the whole collection)

its not that big of a deal really - point was really more about promoting bonsai etc. i mean, if im dead i dont have to worry about them, just seems an opportunity waste and im a pay-it-forward kind of a guy anyway.

 

[my nellie]

What kind of an oppresive discussion did we start tonight!
My comment is to blame... I apologize...

... ...Most arboretums are not interested because they are not equipped to take care of them.

Of course! Much more so in my country... in Greece that is.... they don't even know the word "bonsai"

 

[rockm]

i probably did have a tone - i didnt appreciate the snarkiness from paradox and im sick to boot - so im probably less jovial than usual.

my premise wasnt that a beginner would drive to ny - this show is held in kannapolis (same venue as silhouette show). its central location to the triad and charlotte makes its an easy drive for anyone even slightly interested in seeing what its about. that kind of accessibility makes it a much greater attraction for newcomers.

dont know how it is in your area but bonsai is not very common where i live. i'd like to see that change. no one gives simple demos and speeches at local garden centers anymore and there is nothing being done to promote the hobby. (charlotte or raleigh may be different i can only speak to the w-s area) . so i was excited and optimistic when kannapolis became a place for shows. otherwise it was a once a year opportunity and (much longer drive) to make it to the expo in asheville. (for comparison in all the years i attended and invited folks to that venue only 2 people ever made it there due to the extended travel and thats a much bigger show).

Well, Kannapolis is a haul for me and most of the people who do bonsai north of me. I'm not going down because I haven't got the time.

The ABS show and the World Bonsai Congress here in D.C. a long while ago were the only big time shows in my area that were not a two day commitment travel-wise. The Bonsai Congress charged to see their exhibit, which kinda sucked. Didn't see beginners at either show and there is a considerable population and five bonsai clubs in the metro area. I don't believe these kinds of shows are a draw for people that may have just a passing interest in bonsai.

The Potomac Bonsai Association show at the National Arboretum, on the other hand, caters to beginners. That's a complaint that many of the vendors at that show have had historically. Beginner level material sold by folks like Meehans goes quickly. Small junipers and the like also sell quickly. Beyond that it's not easy for vendors selling actual bonsai to make any money. The PBA show They has classes and demos for that beginner group -- some for free, others for a nominal fee. They have also had more advanced classes, but seem to be slacking off on more advanced stuff...

 

[Adair M]

I agree that this is not a show targeted towards beginners. Shohin generally is practiced by those who have been doing bonsai for a long time.

And, as much as it about the trees, it's also about the pots and stands and little accents. Display.

The trees are only 8 inches tall. There's only so much you can do. So, the pots get to be a bigger part of the "show" than with larger bonsai. Even then, the stands become part of the overall presentation.

So, while a Shohin display is a display of small trees, and without the trees there would not be a purpose, Shohin display is really all about "Display".

Movement, harmony, balance, color, seasonality...

Quality Shohin display is very difficult. Every element should be different, yet they should all harmonize together. I have been very fortunate to have been taught the basics of Shohin display by Daisaku Nomoto, a Vice President of the Nippon Shohin Association.

Now, would a beginner understand any of what is being shown at the Shohin show?

 

[watchndsky]

I agree that this is not a show targeted towards beginners. Shohin generally is practiced by those who have been doing bonsai for a long time.

Quality Shohin display is very difficult. Every element should be different, yet they should all harmonize together. I have been very fortunate to have been taught the basics of Shohin display by Daisaku Nomoto, a Vice President of the Nippon Shohin Association.

Now, would a beginner understand any of what is being shown at the Shohin show?

jesus man - does it matter to the newbie? they will either like what they see and want to know more, or they will decide its not something they are interested in.

some of these comments on this thread seem very elitist, pretentious and arrogant. i know what motivates me to do bonsai - im starting to wonder what motivates some of you.

 

[Adair M]

I'm sorry if I came across that way. I have poor internet writing skills.

But, I think many beginners would be intimidated by the Shohin show. Thinking that to do bonsai, they needed to have all the fancy display tables and such.

But, Shohin is all about the "Display". If advanced display is Elitist, Pretentious, and Arrogant, well, it is what it is. As I said, it's really not a beginner sport.

I'm all for beginners. I teach bonsai classes. To all levels. But,I'm saying that if a beginner goes in to the show and see a display he likes and asks "how much would something like this cost?", what do you think his reaction would be when he's told " the tree was $2000, the pot was $1100, the stand it sits on was $1250..."

Now granted, not every display will be mega bucks, but some will be. Would that encourage or discourage a beginner?

 

[watchndsky]

I'm sorry if I came across that way. I have poor internet writing skills.

But, I think many beginners would be intimidated by the Shohin show. Thinking that to do bonsai, they needed to have all the fancy display tables and such.

But, Shohin is all about the "Display". If advanced display is Elitist, Pretentious, and Arrogant, well, it is what it is. As I said, it's really not a beginner sport.

I'm all for beginners. I teach bonsai classes. To all levels. But,I'm saying that if a beginner goes in to the show and see a display he likes and asks "how much would something like this cost?", what do you think his reaction would be when he's told " the tree was $2000, the pot was $1100, the stand it sits on was $1250..."

Now granted, not every display will be mega bucks, but some will be. Would that encourage or discourage a beginner?

would there ever be a show where the material wasnt expensive? did the prices (which are incredibly subjective and all over the place as you know) prevent you from starting your journey? i started mine when i made about a 1/7 of what i make now - it didnt stop me.

based on that logic it would seem the art should have died centuries ago.

 

[Adair M]

would there ever be a show where the material wasnt expensive? did the prices (which are incredibly subjective and all over the place as you know) prevent you from starting your journey? i started mine when i made about a 1/7 of what i make now - it didnt stop me.

based on that logic it would seem the art should have died centuries ago.

Well, all this sounds like it would be a good discussion to have while sitting down at the bar having a beer!

Let's not trash this thread any more...

I hope to see you at the show. I'm the guy who has he little sumo olive in the bright yellow pot. Believe me, you won't miss it!

Shohin display is all about display, but it's supposed to be fun, too! While there are zillions of "rules", it's "anything goes" at the same time! You'll see cool pots, intricately carved stands, matched with unexpected trees. I tend to follow the more traditional Japanese method of displaying Shohin, but I'm sure there will be lots of innovative displays there, too.

 

[watchndsky]

I hope to see you at the show. .

wont be at this one unfortunately..... good luck to you at this one...

 

[JoeR]

Sorry if I missed it, but what are the times for the show/vendors on Friday and Saturday? Is there an official schedule somewhere? @William N. Valavanis