US NATIONAL SHOHIN BONSAI EXHIBITION

[Paradox]

thanks for clarifying - while the lectures etc might appeal to some on this forum, many newcomers being exposed to bonsai for the first time might just stay home if viewing wasnt free.

well maybe if we can convince all the demonstrators to work for free, the airlines to give free airfare for them and for the hotel not to expect any payment of any sort to use the hotel for the event or the rooms for people to sleep in then they offer the whole show for free.

 

[watchndsky]

well maybe if we can convince all the demonstrators to work for free, the airlines to give free airfare for them and for the hotel not to expect any payment of any sort to use the hotel for the event or the rooms for people to sleep in then they offer the whole show for free.

pardon me for wanting to bring new folks into the hobby. dont know how could i be so selfish.

maybe that argument would have merit if you actually included the organizors or the facility hosting instead of all the FOR PROFIT companies that dont actually have anything to do with the show.

youre probably right, ill just tell everybody to visit the arboretum, our local art museums etc. or any number of places that dont charge admission since they are just looking for handouts.

 

[Vance Wood]

well maybe if we can convince all the demonstrators to work for free, the airlines to give free airfare for them and for the hotel not to expect any payment of any sort to use the hotel for the event or the rooms for people to sleep in then they offer the whole show for free.

I appreciate your sarcasm on this matter. On one hand we want to promote the advancement of bonsai and wonder why we don't have more bonsai businesses on the other hand we bitch about how expensive the shows are, the pots, the raw material, the tools, the soils and the instruction.

 

[Vance Wood]

pardon me for wanting to bring new folks into the hobby. dont know how could i be so selfish.

maybe that argument would have merit if you actually included the organizors or the facility hosting instead of all the FOR PROFIT companies that dont actually have anything to do with the show.

youre probably right, ill just tell everybody to visit the arboretum, our local art museums etc. or any number of places that dont charge admission since they are just looking for handouts.

Wanting to bring new people into the hobby is an admirable encdeavour but you have to realize that the shows cost money, sometimes a good deal of money, to set up produce and provide for the internal events. Either we pay for these things or we don't have the events.

 

[Paradox]

pardon me for wanting to bring new folks into the hobby. dont know how could i be so selfish.

maybe that argument would have merit if you actually included the organizors or the facility hosting instead of all the FOR PROFIT companies that dont actually have anything to do with the show.

youre probably right, ill just tell everybody to visit the arboretum, our local art museums etc. or any number of places that dont charge admission since they are just looking for handouts.

Fact of life: Businesses don't stay in business long if they don't make money.

Often the organizers are volunteers. MABS works that way but they need to use a building somewhere to have the event such as a hotel.

I suppose we could get some farmer to donate his field ans we could all pitch tents and sit on the grass and do workshops. Somehow, I don't think many would go for that.

Hotels are a buisness, not a not for profit organization with donors or a rich person's foundation paying for everything.

The Brooklyn Botanic Garden charges admission. Hell even the Planting Fields Arboretum state park here charges admission because their employees do not work for free and it costs money to maintain the buildings and grounds.

Likewise most professionals that do demonstations at shows are doing bonsai as a buisness. They don't have a main job like we do. Their families don't eat for free and the bank doesn't let them live in their house or drive their car for free.

I think most reasonable people realize there this and are willing to pay a moderate fee to attend these functions.

Wish we could all live and work for free out of the goodness of our hearts, but most of the world doesn't work that way.

 

[petegreg]

Man I wish my limber pine (p. flexilis) was a bit further along in development! Maybe it will be ready for the next Shohin exhibition. I really hope it's a great success and continues on.

Potting this spring and entering in the 2nd U.S. National Shohin Exhibition.. I hope!



I'd really love to see a display comprised entirely of native Rocky Mountain trees.

Dan, I love this little pine. Having one high grafted mugo on Scots understock, this is my back up plan. Thanks for posting and inspiration. My best wishes to you and your beautiful little limber pine.

 

[watchndsky]

Fact of life: Businesses don't stay in business long if they don't make money.
The shohin exhibition is a business? Sorry I wasnt aware - I thought it more of a meeting where people wanted to show of their trees to the public and vendors paid to setup a table to sell stuff.

Hotels are a buisness, not a not for profit organization with donors or a rich person's foundation paying for everything.
What does a hotel have to do with an exhibition? Its only relation is incidental that some decide to stay at one. It has nothing to do with price of the admission to the exhibition.

The Brooklyn Botanic Garden charges admission. Hell even the Planting Fields Arboretum state park here charges admission because their employees do not work for free and it costs money to maintain the buildings and grounds.
Whoopty doo - the NC arboretum doesnt - again..... how does an established facility with significant overhead like the garden coorelate with a private exhibition of private property.

Likewise most professionals that do demonstations at shows are doing bonsai as a buisness. They don't have a main job like we do. Their families don't eat for free and the bank doesn't let them live in their house or drive their car for free.
And they are more than welcome to charge - again - that has nothing to do with idea that admission to the tree exhibits should be charged. The market will respond in kind.

I think most reasonable people realize there this and are willing to pay a moderate fee to attend these functions.
A moderate fee - reasonable is subjective but thats not unreasonable. But the website seems to suggest that its either a 50-90 "registration fee" . Who among us is even willing to pay that per person, much less a total newbie just wanting to see what bonsai all about. That is not a reasonable or moderate fee to walk around for an hour and see what this hobby is about or over hear conversations etc.


Read that last sentence again please. My point about "fees" is really getting blown out of context here. I dont blame anyone for trying to recoup costs associated with presenting, but I didnt think the purpose of the exhibition was profit - i thought it was to promote awareness and appreciation of the hobby.

It was a simple question - is it going to cost 50-90 dollars just to show up and walk around. It didnt need to turn into an discussion of capitalism and business models.

 

[Paradox]

Fact of life: Businesses don't stay in business long if they don't make money.
The shohin exhibition is a business? Sorry I wasnt aware - I thought it more of a meeting where people wanted to show of their trees to the public and vendors paid to setup a table to sell stuff.

Hotels are a buisness, not a not for profit organization with donors or a rich person's foundation paying for everything.
What does a hotel have to do with an exhibition? Its only relation is incidental that some decide to stay at one. It has nothing to do with price of the admission to the exhibition.

The Brooklyn Botanic Garden charges admission. Hell even the Planting Fields Arboretum state park here charges admission because their employees do not work for free and it costs money to maintain the buildings and grounds.
Whoopty doo - the NC arboretum doesnt - again..... how does an established facility with significant overhead like the garden coorelate with a private exhibition of private property.

Likewise most professionals that do demonstations at shows are doing bonsai as a buisness. They don't have a main job like we do. Their families don't eat for free and the bank doesn't let them live in their house or drive their car for free.
And they are more than welcome to charge - again - that has nothing to do with idea that admission to the tree exhibits should be charged. The market will respond in kind.

I think most reasonable people realize there this and are willing to pay a moderate fee to attend these functions.
A moderate fee - reasonable is subjective but thats not unreasonable. But the website seems to suggest that its either a 50-90 "registration fee" . Who among us is even willing to pay that per person, much less a total newbie just wanting to see what bonsai all about. That is not a reasonable or moderate fee to walk around for an hour and see what this hobby is about or over hear conversations etc.


Read that last sentence again please. My point about "fees" is really getting blown out of context here. I dont blame anyone for trying to recoup costs associated with presenting, but I didnt think the purpose of the exhibition was profit - i thought it was to promote awareness and appreciation of the hobby.

It was a simple question - is it going to cost 50-90 dollars just to show up and walk around. It didnt need to turn into an discussion of capitalism and business models.

Have you been to many shows? Bonsai exhibitions have to be held in a building somewhere, whether it's a hotel or a gymnasium. Those spaces cost money to rent, several $1000 to $10,000 for a weekend. Then the owner of the building requires the organization to have insurance in case someone gets hurt. Add a at least another $1000, probably more.

If you can't understand that "people wanting to get together show trees and vendors sell stuff" have to pay big $ for space to do that, there is nothing I can say. That is too simplistic a description and it goes way beyond that in terms of logistics and cost.

From my understanding the admission is/was $50 per day(?) which includes the exhibit, area, the vendor area and the demonstrations.

If you choose not to partake in one of those, that is your choice.

I dont see why anyone wanting to find out what bonsai is all about wouldnt want to see the demo. Youll get more out of that than from the vendor area. I would think seeing the exhibit might raise more questions about how bonsai is done that can be shown at the demos. You'll get more people into it that way imo.

Lots of us were new once. Doesn't seem like any of us were put off bonsai because it cost $50 to get into a show. Many of us attend shows every year, some of us several a year, some (like myself) only one a year because that's what I can afford.

I don't think any of these shows operate at a profit. Pretty sure most of them pretty much cover costs and not much more.

Whatever, I get that you want a cheap alacarte menu for a bonsai flyby.

Not sure I agree that is the best way to get people into the hobby. If the cost of admission is a deterrent, they won't get past the first vendor. They will turn tail and run back out the door as soon as they see pot prices, tool prices and tree prices.

 

[watchndsky]

Have you been to many shows? Bonsai exhibitions have to be held in a building somewhere, whether it's a hotel or a gymnasium. Those spaces cost money to rent, several $1000 to $10,000 for a weekend. Then the owner of the building requires the organization to have insurance in case someone gets hurt. Add a at least another $1000, probably more.

If you can't understand that "people wanting to get together show trees and vendors sell stuff" have to pay big $ for space to do that, there is nothing I can say. That is too simplistic a description and it goes way beyond that in terms of logistics and cost.

From my understanding the admission is/was $50 per day(?) which includes the exhibit, area, the vendor area and the demonstrations.

If you choose not to partake in one of those, that is your choice.

I dont see why anyone wanting to find out what bonsai is all about wouldnt want to see the demo. Youll get more out of that than from the vendor area. I would think seeing the exhibit might raise more questions about how bonsai is done that can be shown at the demos. You'll get more people into it that way imo.

Lots of us were new once. Doesn't seem like any of us were put off bonsai because it cost $50 to get into a show. Many of us attend shows every year, some of us several a year, some (like myself) only one a year because that's what I can afford.

I don't think any of these shows operate at a profit. Pretty sure most of them pretty much cover costs and not much more.

Whatever, I get that you want a cheap alacarte menu for a bonsai flyby.

Sweet jesus... Can you even read? How are you making this about me? Or are you filling in for sawgrass.

Go ahead and have the last word Im done.

 

[Paradox]

Sweet jesus... Can you even read?

Yes I read it. I disagree that your suggestion will do anything to get new people into bonsai without more personal interaction.

If cost is such a deterrent, they won't get past the first vendor table

 

[Adair M]

Sweet jesus... Can you even read? How are you making this about me? Or are you filling in for sawgrass.

Go ahead and have the last word Im done.

Watchndsky, I believe your argument is moot. Admission to the Exhibit and Vendor areas is free. The $50 per day is to cover the cost of the demonstrators and their materials.

I do hope you come to the show. I'm an Exhibitor and I'm planning a Box stand display and a Three Point display. And, yes, I had to pay for a registration. You, however, can come in and see the Exhibit for free.

 

[watchndsky]

Watchndsky, I believe your argument is moot. Admission to the Exhibit and Vendor areas is free. The $50 per day is to cover the cost of the demonstrators and their materials.

I do hope you come to the show. I'm an Exhibitor and I'm planning a Box stand display and a Three Point display. And, yes, I had to pay for a registration. You, however, can come in and see the Exhibit for free.

i didnt have an argument to begin with - i had a clarifying question since i always mention any local events to folks i know to raise awareness or interest.

i doubt that i make it due to deadlines- but just as well - someone may grow snarky and accuse me of wanting a "cheap alacarte menu for a bonsai flyby"

but now that i can assure my friend that its not going to cost 100-200 bucks for him and his wife to attend - someone who has shown interest in my trees will probably attend, meet some new folks, see some nice trees and maybe even be inspired to buy something small to get started with. i think thats a good thing.

i have no doubt you will have an excellent display (or two). ive seen your work before and its always top notch.

 

[Grant Hamby]

Well dang. I definitely thought I had to pay for admission.... hopefully there's not an empty display table with my name on it. Haha. I even paid for a friend as well! We are talking about the shohin expo, right?

 

[JoeR]

Just out of curiosity- will the vendors table only include shohin material, or is it of all sizes? I'll have to see if I can get off work to go, but if possible I fully intend on being there!

 

[Adair M]

Just out of curiosity- will the vendors table only include shohin material, or is it of all sizes? I'll have to see if I can get off work to go, but if possible I fully intend on being there!

I have no idea.

I would suspect mostly Shohin? But who knows what they'll bring.

 

[Adair M]

Well dang. I definitely thought I had to pay for admission.... hopefully there's not an empty display table with my name on it. Haha. I even paid for a friend as well! We are talking about the shohin expo, right?

I believe admission to the Exhibit is free. You have to have a pass to enter the demonstration room.

 

[rockm]

FWIW, Bill's show is pretty much standard for a professional bonsai show. This is not a "typical" local club get-together. It is akin to the show put on by Mirai and Bill's other show the National. It brings in advanced bonsaist's trees from all over, as well as a number of professionals to do their thing in the demonstration room.

Attendees pay for the professionals' demonstrations if they want to learn intensively about advanced techniques/artistic ideas/etc. If beginners want that, then they can pay for it.

The free admission to the vendor and exhibit is very nice for a show like this. I had to repeatedly ask the ABS a couple of years ago for the same free vendor/exhibit area access when it put on a Learning Exhibition and show near Baltimore.

 

[rockm]

Fact of life: Businesses don't stay in business long if they don't make money.
The shohin exhibition is a business? Sorry I wasnt aware - I thought it more of a meeting where people wanted to show of their trees to the public and vendors paid to setup a table to sell stuff.

Hotels are a buisness, not a not for profit organization with donors or a rich person's foundation paying for everything.
What does a hotel have to do with an exhibition? Its only relation is incidental that some decide to stay at one. It has nothing to do with price of the admission to the exhibition.

The Brooklyn Botanic Garden charges admission. Hell even the Planting Fields Arboretum state park here charges admission because their employees do not work for free and it costs money to maintain the buildings and grounds.
Whoopty doo - the NC arboretum doesnt - again..... how does an established facility with significant overhead like the garden coorelate with a private exhibition of private property.

Likewise most professionals that do demonstations at shows are doing bonsai as a buisness. They don't have a main job like we do. Their families don't eat for free and the bank doesn't let them live in their house or drive their car for free.
And they are more than welcome to charge - again - that has nothing to do with idea that admission to the tree exhibits should be charged. The market will respond in kind.

I think most reasonable people realize there this and are willing to pay a moderate fee to attend these functions.
A moderate fee - reasonable is subjective but thats not unreasonable. But the website seems to suggest that its either a 50-90 "registration fee" . Who among us is even willing to pay that per person, much less a total newbie just wanting to see what bonsai all about. That is not a reasonable or moderate fee to walk around for an hour and see what this hobby is about or over hear conversations etc.


Read that last sentence again please. My point about "fees" is really getting blown out of context here. I dont blame anyone for trying to recoup costs associated with presenting, but I didnt think the purpose of the exhibition was profit - i thought it was to promote awareness and appreciation of the hobby.

It was a simple question - is it going to cost 50-90 dollars just to show up and walk around. It didnt need to turn into an discussion of capitalism and business models.

I think you've misunderstood how this show works. It is more like an industry CONFERENCE or a trade show. Think of it in those terms.

The event sponsor, in this case, Bill Valavanis, HAS TO PAY the hotel/conference center for their space. That's not cheap. That deal for conference/ballrooms, etc. with the hotel can also include discounted rooms for attendees if they stay over night. Bill also has to accommodate the professionals he has asked to do demonstrations. That may, or may not (depending on relationships, etc.) include their travel and fees.

This is not a cheap or easy thing to do. FWIW, the market has "responded in kind" to Bill's efforts. From what I've seen, his bonsai conferences are usually full and very busy...People travel from all over the east coast (10 hour drives aren't uncommon) to attend. It is not a charitable endeavor. Bill has to recover costs and yeah, make some kind of profit. That is how he makes his living.

Comparing it to "free" museums and publicly sponsored exhibits is apples and oranges. BTW, those "free" exhibits/museums mostly have substantial tax support. The Smithsonian Museums in D.C. are "free," as is admission to the National Arboretum and its bonsai collection. However, both are supported through the federal government. They aren't free, you've already paid for them.
The show's sponsor has graciously (and I mean it) allowed free access to the vendor area and exhibit. He didn't have to, but it's good business for the show and the vendors

People travel from all over the east coast (10 hour drives aren't uncommon) to attend. Bill Valavanis puts on this event, as well as his other show. It is not a charitable endeavor. Bill has to recover costs and yeah, make some kind of profit. That is how he makes his living.

 

[watchndsky]

I think you've misunderstood how this show works. It is more like an industry CONFERENCE or a trade show. Think of it in those terms.

The event sponsor, in this case, Bill Valavanis, HAS TO PAY the hotel/conference center for their space. That's not cheap. That deal for conference/ballrooms, etc. with the hotel can also include discounted rooms for attendees if they stay over night. Bill also has to accommodate the professionals he has asked to do demonstrations. That may, or may not (depending on relationships, etc.) include their travel and fees.

This is not a cheap or easy thing to do. FWIW, the market has "responded in kind" to Bill's efforts. From what I've seen, his bonsai conferences are usually full and very busy...

Comparing it to "free" museums and publicly sponsored exhibits is apples and oranges. BTW, those "free" exhibits/museums mostly have substantial tax support. The Smithsonian Museums in D.C. are "free," as is admission to the National Arboretum and its bonsai collection. However, both are supported through the federal government. They aren't free, you've already paid for them.
The show's sponsor has graciously (and I mean it) allowed free access to the vendor area and exhibit. He didn't have to, but it's good business for the show and the vendors

People travel from all over the east coast (10 hour drives aren't uncommon) to attend. Bill Valavanis puts on this event, as well as his other show. It is not a charitable endeavor. Bill has to recover costs and yeah, make some kind of profit. That is how he makes his living.

you know this is getting a bit ridiculous. maybe im rushing to type and not explaining myself or people are rushing to read and not hearing me - but either way.....

i m pretty sure i have a grasp on how money gets made, and having been a part of the nc expo - i agree and understand your point about substantial tax support. my only point in that statement was that (while not free) there is a significant overhead with many of those areas that is not applicable to this event. this even isnt at a hotel and the "airlines that should be free" and other args are not even applicable in this instance. it is not an ongoing event requiring utilities, maintenance, employees, insurance, etc - so i think a bit of perspective is in order there. but whatever....

my initial side comment (no idea why this is such a source of contention) is that for newcomers who are not invested in the hobby - charging 50-90 bucks per person wont fly and wont draw new people in when there are cheaper or even free ways to spend their time and money.

thats it - i wanted to know if it was free because i try to promote bonsai to newcomers who show some minimal interest beyond reading a book from the library.

thats all - why all the drama around that? people who expect more than viewing can pay more and get more in terms of dinners, demos whatever- im not condemning that? im not attacking bill or anyone else who are trying to earn a living?

for the record- bill has made over 1400 off of me personally off the sell of his trees- clearly i am NOT attacking his efforts to earn a living.

 

[Vance Wood]

Try to put things into perspective: How much does it cost to go to the Supper Bowl, or the World Series, or the Stanley Cup? Those events are very expensive, many of us long timers will never be able to afford this considering how our health care is falling apart and there are more expensive things to spend our money on than sports or bonssai-------------------??! Just because someone is new to bonsai does not mean they do not have goals to aspire to. When you try to eliminate goals to be achieved you remove the pride of accomplishment and personally this is one of the problems I have with bonsai today; it don't mean nutten any more.