Smoke
Ignore-Amus
A good place to start is a hydroponic store. they will have all the stuff necessary to get with the program.
turface only?
- Thread starter HotAction
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daniel
Mame
Ok, so I'm still learning, so bare with me. I live in Louisville, KY where there are very moist, decently cold winters. I'm still trying to decide if I should winter my deciduous trees in an unheated garage (where it stays above freezing), or bed them in my garden. I'm starting to use not high-fired akadama and I'd like to keep it from breaking down too quickly. Will keeping them in an unheated garage keep this from happening too quickly? Should I move to a high-fired variety? Should I just drop bonsai and move to a deserted South Pacific island?
Daniel
Doesn't Spagnum Peat Moss contain Humic Acid? It seems like we keep digressing back to the old Japanese soil mixes like in Yoshimura's book. I'm starting to think that those guys had it right originally. It also seems that in an effort to plant our trees in rocks, we are actually overcomplicating things by having to add these additives to our rocks. Why not just let the soil do it for us? I think Warren's secret is that rather than having to worry about all of this mess we've been hashing out, he just uses what's tried and true, and concentrates on things like design and actually making believable bonsai.
Rick Moquin
Omono
... for him in California.
No offense intended but every disciple will profess their teachers recipe.
One thing no one can argue about is there is as many soil recipes as there is locations in the world.
If it is working for you than by all means continue to do so. I never rofess one over the other, always what works for you. Now if you were living in NS that may very well be a different story and should by chance what you are doing is producing better results you will not need to twist my arm.
I have been tree sitting a few very large pines and California junipers for a friend of mine studying with Kimura. They are planted in 100% turface and are very very healthy. Turface dries out very quick though so one must water more that normal.
Would I use turface? Nope.... I will stick to pumice/lava and akadama and next year I will be using much more akadama.
Jason
Would I use turface? Nope.... I will stick to pumice/lava and akadama and next year I will be using much more akadama.
Jason
I use 100% turface for my ponderosa. I don't really like how it dries out so fast on the top layer but deep below, it stays moist for quite sometime, especially in this spring weather. This makes it really hard for me to know when my pine needs water. I may switch to a pumice mix in the future as it seems a bit easier to feel if its wet or not.
Warren lives in East Tennessee now. It's been used coast to coast man. I also believe Yoshimura lived in the NE didn't he?
Rick Moquin
Omono
Whatever floats your boat.
FrankP999
Shohin
I stick a chopstick deep into the turface and check the end of it for moisture before watering.
Frank
Ross
Shohin
I'm using 100% Turface on a few plants, and if there is any question whether or not it needs water, I water it. I have been a bit apprehensive that excessive watering might lead to leggy growth, but I think that's more attributable to the amount of light the plant is receiving.
TheSteve
Chumono
Okay here's the thing...
You shouldn't be able to overwater with turface, pumice, akadama, etc. it will only hold so much water and that isn't enough to be detrimental. That's why it's used. Root rot and such comes from too much retention due to high organic content. Have you ever seen a rock retain copious amounts of fluid?
You shouldn't be able to overwater with turface, pumice, akadama, etc. it will only hold so much water and that isn't enough to be detrimental. That's why it's used. Root rot and such comes from too much retention due to high organic content. Have you ever seen a rock retain copious amounts of fluid?
Frank thanks I do need to try the chopstick with the turface as probing down in the soil with a finger is useless since the dry turface above slips into the holes too fast for me to tell.
The Steve, I thought the same thing- that you can't overwater inorganics. However, I am not too experienced with Ponderosa (or pines in general) so I wasn't really sure if the roots preferred to be in constant contact with the wet granules or if they liked to completely dry out first. Honestly, I still have no idea and I have had terrible luck with pines in the past, so I am now overly cautious about anything to do with them. It seems like everytime I have a yellowing needle, my tree hurdles into a downward spiral and I found myself admiring and caring for a dead tree that has been sitting on my bench for the last 6 months.
The Steve, I thought the same thing- that you can't overwater inorganics. However, I am not too experienced with Ponderosa (or pines in general) so I wasn't really sure if the roots preferred to be in constant contact with the wet granules or if they liked to completely dry out first. Honestly, I still have no idea and I have had terrible luck with pines in the past, so I am now overly cautious about anything to do with them. It seems like everytime I have a yellowing needle, my tree hurdles into a downward spiral and I found myself admiring and caring for a dead tree that has been sitting on my bench for the last 6 months.
TheSteve
Chumono
I've got ponderosa that are growing in a bit of native soil and pumice. They respond amazingly. The thing with inorganics is that they are never truly "wet". Just moist and that's the way trees like it (mostly). If you are having issues with pines dying radically on you there may be something else going on if you're growing them in pure turface.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Actually it is not so much the water that creates the problem (root rot) but the lack of air circulation. Usually when your soil gets to a point that it holds too much water it has become compacted and no longer breathes properly. Most people misdiagnose the problem as being too much water when the actual problem is that the soil is not draining fast enough to pull fresh air into the soil mix. It is impossible for there to be root rot if the soil drains properly. Air circulation hinders the fungus that causes root rot.
This is why it is important to control the elements in a soil mix and have a good idea how they will hold up over time. I grow a lot of conifers that in general are not repotted but once every three to five years. I have to know my soil will not break down and my field capacity does not increase. There is a subject that many should look into: Field capacity. Field capacity is the amount of water a soil will retain before additional water will just run off. Virgin soil mix can be measured easily by taking a couple of styrofoam cups, one with the soil in it and holes in the bottom and one with water in it marked at the water line. Set the cup with the soil on a tray to catch the water that drains through and add the water to the soil. Wait ten to fifteen minutes and pour the water that has drained out into the tray, back into the cup with the marked water line. The difference between the old water line and the new water line will give you an idea of your field capacity, how much water the soil mix will retain. You can get real scientific about this but basically you just need to know if your soil is holding too much water, or if the soil is holding more water now than a year ago. Remember it is not the water that is the problem but a break down in the soil elements clogging the soil porosity and diminishing the amount of air that can be pulled back into the soil. This is the source of root rot.
This is why it is important to control the elements in a soil mix and have a good idea how they will hold up over time. I grow a lot of conifers that in general are not repotted but once every three to five years. I have to know my soil will not break down and my field capacity does not increase. There is a subject that many should look into: Field capacity. Field capacity is the amount of water a soil will retain before additional water will just run off. Virgin soil mix can be measured easily by taking a couple of styrofoam cups, one with the soil in it and holes in the bottom and one with water in it marked at the water line. Set the cup with the soil on a tray to catch the water that drains through and add the water to the soil. Wait ten to fifteen minutes and pour the water that has drained out into the tray, back into the cup with the marked water line. The difference between the old water line and the new water line will give you an idea of your field capacity, how much water the soil mix will retain. You can get real scientific about this but basically you just need to know if your soil is holding too much water, or if the soil is holding more water now than a year ago. Remember it is not the water that is the problem but a break down in the soil elements clogging the soil porosity and diminishing the amount of air that can be pulled back into the soil. This is the source of root rot.
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mapleman77
Mame
That's really nice to know Vance. I have a few trees as well as all of my conifer seedlings in pure turface. They look fine and the root systems seem to be doing just fine as well. Getting back to the fertilizer thing, if I'm fertilizing every 2 weeks with MiracleGro, does the turface actually hold the fertilizer salts or does the fert just run straight through? All of this is confusing.....
head_cutter
Yamadori
only turface
Years ago I did a soil test of different straight media the results of which were published in the ABS Journal. It was conducted in a greenhouse using Serissa (well rooted) cuttings over a period of 2 months. The 'control' was in regular potting soil with nothing added, the plants were watered only once a day and were given 12/12 light/dark.
If memory serves--as the plants grew on--the ones in a medium of MVP Turface and other straight gritty mixes went through some of the worst wilt cycles, all eventually died from stress.
The winners were:
1. sifted Pine bark mulch
2. medium Perlite
3. 1/8" Pea gravel
The one in the pine bark had the best root system I've ever seen in my life.
Bob
Years ago I did a soil test of different straight media the results of which were published in the ABS Journal. It was conducted in a greenhouse using Serissa (well rooted) cuttings over a period of 2 months. The 'control' was in regular potting soil with nothing added, the plants were watered only once a day and were given 12/12 light/dark.
If memory serves--as the plants grew on--the ones in a medium of MVP Turface and other straight gritty mixes went through some of the worst wilt cycles, all eventually died from stress.
The winners were:
1. sifted Pine bark mulch
2. medium Perlite
3. 1/8" Pea gravel
The one in the pine bark had the best root system I've ever seen in my life.
Bob
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This test you have mentioned is marginally informative. Sometimes the choice of material for a test will in itself skew the results. Using Serissa as a test subject to come to some sort of conclusion over all in assessing the value of one medium over another for all around bonsai purposes is misleading. Serissa is a touchy plant to begin with. They do not like to dry out at all and will decline and die if this treatment continues where it is allowed to dry out. In using any species for bonsai its needs and requirements must be considered. In this case a tree (Serissa) which likes to be slightly moist all of the time is put into a soil mix the dries out too quickly. It could also be argued that if you put a JWP into nothing but Pine bark mulch you might have the same problem from the other direction.
Anonymous User
Banned
Yes and that was simply using what was readily available and inexpensive.....I seriously think they would have had a good laugh if told they had to import soil from America to grow bonsai. The "been doing for hundreds of years" argument is a little flawed when you consider they never used wire to style bonsai for hundreds of years, they layered their soil by particle size for hundreds of years, and so on... But you are right, the true test of the soil is the health of the tree.
Root rot is blamed for almost any death of a tree, when in fact it is rare and most will never see the problem at all. With todays fast draining mixes, you simply can not over water. If you are using a proper soil mix, then you can add water from above all day long and just watch it flow out of the bottom drainage holes, never overflowing the rim, how can you possible overwater when all excess water is drained away?
Ingredients vary from person to person, Guy Guidry uses a mix with potting soil, Walter Pall uses a mix with peat, both of these ingredients are proclaimed to be certain death for a bonsai by people on the forums, but you can't argue with the results.
The mix isn't important, only that it matches the care you are able to give, but I have said something like this before.... http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/articles/care/soil-potting-media/the-secret-to-soil-revealed/
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Yes and that was simply using what was readily available and inexpensive.....I seriously think they would have had a good laugh if told they had to import soil from America to grow bonsai. The "been doing for hundreds of years" argument is a little flawed when you consider they never used wire to style bonsai for hundreds of years, they layered their soil by particle size for hundreds of years, and so on... But you are right, the true test of the soil is the health of the tree.
Root rot is blamed for almost any death of a tree, when in fact it is rare and most will never see the problem at all. With todays fast draining mixes, you simply can not over water. If you are using a proper soil mix, then you can add water from above all day long and just watch it flow out of the bottom drainage holes, never overflowing the rim, how can you possible overwater when all excess water is drained away?
Ingredients vary from person to person, Guy Guidry uses a mix with potting soil, Walter Pall uses a mix with peat, both of these ingredients are proclaimed to be certain death for a bonsai by people on the forums, but you can't argue with the results.
The mix isn't important, only that it matches the care you are able to give, but I have said something like this before.... http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/articles/care/soil-potting-media/the-secret-to-soil-revealed/
Will is right on this. It must be remembered, and I will continue to point it out at every opportunity, until it finally sinks in. The tragic myth has for years been promoted that too much water equals root rot. This is not true. Root rot is caused by a fungus disease. Fungus is a plant that does not have Chlorophyll and it needs certain conditions to survive and thrive. Water is important as an indicator but lack of air circulation is the cause. If your soil mix takes an inordinate time to drain then you are vulnerable to root rot because you have no air circulation in the soil. A soil slow to drain and is holding water indicates that the soil has broken down and there is little air circulation. The water issue is an indication of the greater problem and is in itself not the cause of root rot.
head_cutter
Yamadori
Vance
I know but I had a pretty good group of Serissa cuttings and knew how sensative they were, wanted to run the test for a 'resonable' amount of time and I did know some of the outcome anyway. They wanted a 'different' filler article (2 pages or about 800 words) and I was bored.
I know but I had a pretty good group of Serissa cuttings and knew how sensative they were, wanted to run the test for a 'resonable' amount of time and I did know some of the outcome anyway. They wanted a 'different' filler article (2 pages or about 800 words) and I was bored.
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