Propagation - Turface vs Perlite
- Thread starter Chad D
- Start date
KennedyMarx
Omono
I used a mix of half perlite half Turface to start some JBP seeds this spring. In another container I started a batch of Japanese maple seeds in straight Turface. Hard to compare since they're different planta, but results are pretty even.
lordy
Omono
I was in a soil dynamics class with John Kirby yesterday. He said he used to sell Turface by the truckload until he discovered that it holds on to too much water without making it available to the roots. Now he is a staunch opponent and sings the praises of North American pumice. We also talked about perlite as a growing medium, and he likes it but it needs to be used carefully due to being so light that it washes away easily. Regarding the suitability as a starter medium, two thumbs up. Turface? Great for drying up puddles on an infield.
I use pumice in my "new" found mix. It's for established trees, but I like it.
I even used it in a mixture of pumice and "kaka dammit" (akadama..ugh) but it didn't do anything to keep the akadama from going REALLY bad and turning to smutch that compacted to a depth of an inch and more all around the pot.
I do like pumice. One of the honchos in the club uses it for THE moisture dispenser in his mix.
????
I even used it in a mixture of pumice and "kaka dammit" (akadama..ugh) but it didn't do anything to keep the akadama from going REALLY bad and turning to smutch that compacted to a depth of an inch and more all around the pot.
I do like pumice. One of the honchos in the club uses it for THE moisture dispenser in his mix.
????
michaelj
Chumono
I love pumice as a growing medium. But if using it for propagation, I would sift it and use only the smaller particles. Some of the pumice I've been getting lately have huge particle size and I don't think that it would work well for cuttings.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Why, if larger particle sizes are better for growing roots of bonsai, would it be bad for growing roots? Why would fines be great for rooting but deadly for a bonsai's roots?
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I tried to take some hardwood cuttings. I used my regular soil (oil dry). When it freezes it ex pands so much it pushes the cutting right out. They were all laying on top this spring.
But I had taken a couple and just shoved them in the moss on the top of the soil in my collanders.
So that is what I'm using this year. Moss on oil dry. These are Chinese elm.
But I had taken a couple and just shoved them in the moss on the top of the soil in my collanders.
So that is what I'm using this year. Moss on oil dry. These are Chinese elm.
barrosinc
Masterpiece
I've gotta say... living in a zone 9 and reading comments about soil freezing so bad and pushing cuttings out of the ground makes me think I know nothing about how real cold feels.
Probably coldest I have felt must be like -3°C like 28°F, and max would be like 34°C. So if I take those 37° difference and go the other way to -40°C or -40°F I would probably look like the jamaican guys from cool runnings at the airport.
Probably coldest I have felt must be like -3°C like 28°F, and max would be like 34°C. So if I take those 37° difference and go the other way to -40°C or -40°F I would probably look like the jamaican guys from cool runnings at the airport.
lordy
Omono
I know that you know about this subject, but my take is that a cutting has no roots, so might stand a better chance in smaller particle size due to less air/more available moisture than larger particle with more air and less moisture available. I would think that cuttings need to stay wetter until roots sprout.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
My thinking is that it is just like layering, but without the xylem connection. The excess of auxin and accumulation of carbohydrate at the cut causes root initials to form (a small group of cambium cells). It isn't until these initials develop into emergent roots that the 'environment' of the cut (end) matters. If it is dry, it gets air pruned; else roots grow. That is, as long as there is an adequate supply of oxygen for all this metabolic activity.
This model of how it works may not be quite right, but it leads me to believe that what works for trees ought to work for cuttings. Yet, I am well aware of the use of peat blocks for cuttings but not for trees. Why?
This model of how it works may not be quite right, but it leads me to believe that what works for trees ought to work for cuttings. Yet, I am well aware of the use of peat blocks for cuttings but not for trees. Why?
michaelj
Chumono
I wouldn't use fines like the pumice dust, but I would use 1/32 to 1/8, and sift out the really large particles. I've had the science behind that explained to me by a speaker who had a degree in horticulture, but I can't recite it from memory accurately. Had to do with water holding capacity, air filled porosity, bulk density and total porosity. At some point (2-3 mm, IIRC), he reported that increasing particle sizes decreased the success rate; likewise, at some point, decreasing the particle size had the same effect - so fine sand is a less suitable rooting medium than coarse sand. I can confirm from my own experiences, over the last two years particularly, that cuttings I put into straight unsifted pumice did not take well, and those in particle sizes from 1/32 to 1/8, or even perlite mixed with coarse builder's sand, have done very well.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
This is the same as for bonsai --> growing roots is growing roots, I think; which is the point of my original question:
michaelj
Chumono
I've planted collected materials in extremely large particle pumice, much larger than 3 mm, and had roots explode into the pot very quickly, but if I try to strike cuttings in the same exact medium, they fail. Maybe it's just be because my cuttings do not go deep into the medium, so they dry out more easily between waterings, and a dried out cutting is usually a dead cutting. I'm not sure. But I know that what's worked best for me with trees is not exactly the same as what has worked best for me with cuttings.
Chad D
Mame
So most use 100% pumice for collected trees?
lieuz
Chumono
Like, 100% perlite? I sift my perlite so I can get all the smaller bits out, it's basically all dust it seems.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Not here. I put every tree I collect in Napa floor dry.
michaelj
Chumono
I put small collected trees in that DE floor dry stuff from Napa. It generally works well. I also sometimes put them into my regular bonsai soil mix which includes DE and pumice. It all depends on the root ball, the time of year and other variables.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
That is my regular bonsai mix. D.E.
parhamr
Omono
I’ve had success with pumice, perlite, and diatomaceous earth in various ratios and on their own.
Stormwater
Shohin
Why organic?
