Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
What's the point?
Treeblers verses 'Taters...
- Thread starter Forsoothe!
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_#1_
Omono
Read your cliche, think about that and the soil you use on your trees in pot. I won't answer your question.
But I do kinda agree that I prefer natural looking trees over sumo style. You complain that the "establishment" rips on and discourage people with sticks in pots asking for styling advice. Nothing wrong with that actually. But instead of bitching and whining, why not just make a post of your journey on building a tree from ground up?
If you want to be a leader, show me you want to be a leader...
But I do kinda agree that I prefer natural looking trees over sumo style. You complain that the "establishment" rips on and discourage people with sticks in pots asking for styling advice. Nothing wrong with that actually. But instead of bitching and whining, why not just make a post of your journey on building a tree from ground up?
If you want to be a leader, show me you want to be a leader...
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I don't have to. It's up to you to explain why your forest is different than the stuff you're criticizing. You wanted to have a discussion about this, discuss it.
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
I doesn't, really, it doesn't. There are some chops, most of which have healed. The trees' trunks have taper and the branches have ramification, lots of it. I will post a picture when it gets repotted in April and partially defoliated. How old is your composition? You may be comparing apples to oranges, as mine is pretty old.
You still did not answer my two questions.
Are those your best efforts and how long have you been at it?
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Forsoothe!,
know that Bonsai is in its infancy.
Unlike Traditional painters who have a whole language for
critiquing images.
Nothing like that exists in Bonsai.
Just rote and cookie cutter information.
At some point, Picasso will be mentioned and "Classical" look.
Put up a tree and ask for a constructional critique.
See what you get.
Most folk in the beginning have a problem with - Health
Watering, pruning and the desire to wire into a shape.
Forget Design.
In the past I have suggested an Art teacher.
Same problem down here - falls on deaf ears.
So it is just left alone.
Good Day
Anthony
know that Bonsai is in its infancy.
Unlike Traditional painters who have a whole language for
critiquing images.
Nothing like that exists in Bonsai.
Just rote and cookie cutter information.
At some point, Picasso will be mentioned and "Classical" look.
Put up a tree and ask for a constructional critique.
See what you get.
Most folk in the beginning have a problem with - Health
Watering, pruning and the desire to wire into a shape.
Forget Design.
In the past I have suggested an Art teacher.
Same problem down here - falls on deaf ears.
So it is just left alone.
Good Day
Anthony
I’m sorry, but this forest is really poorly done. All the trunks are the same size. The overall shape (Silohette) of the foliage is formless and makes no sense. The pot is too deep. Especially given the thinness of the trunks. There’s no apparent “mother” tree. In short, this planting is not “show worthy”.
Forsoothe, you remind me of a guy we have in our club who tries to argue that “American Bonsai” doesn’t need to follow the conventions of Japanese bonsai. So, instead of covering the soil of his tree with moss, he applied a covering of builder’s sand instead! Yes, the kind of sand I had in in my sandbox as a kid! Anyway, he’s defiant of convention, and insists that everyone is “doing it wrong”, except him.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Huh? I have no such "rigid standards" that I'm looking to impose on anyone. Just look at the trees I've posted. And FWIW, those who post the best trees here DO encourage beginners and have been for years. They take the time to explain HOW they do it with series of photos and detailed explanations of the hows and whys of what they do. I've seen no such posts from you.
Simply stating you hate others' work and imbuing it with some kind of mysterious power over others is not constructive. Care to remedy that with a detailed explanation of the work you did on your trees (pick one)? Photo progressions of development have historically been the most powerful teaching tool here --ask some of the readers here about that.
Americans doing it "their way" has been a big problem for American bonsai, at least until the mid 90s when a lot of people realized that we were stuck with a lot of bad and mediocre bonsai and the "damn it, it's MERICUN bonsai" attitude was mostly an excuse for, well, bad and mediocre bonsai. The Japanese-schooled instructors that have come back to the US have shown that the MERICUN way can be taken to the next level with the discipline and design sense that Japanese bonsai embodies. Those 'rigid standards' could be read by cooler heads as "effective techniques that have proven over time to produce great trees"
The "My way" attitude is mostly on the dust bin of American bonsai and replaced with a more dynamic, less rigid approach that accommodates the spirit of American trees, but with decent artistic and technical know how. Aspiring for mediocrity produces mediocre...I don't know of anyone here--in spite of the monstrous, brutal half-dozen old timers--who don't want to learn how to make better trees.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
To put my money where my mouth is with progressions--the first photo was where I was going with my oak roughly 10-12 years ago. The second is from a couple of years ago--I can't photo the tree now because it is still in winter storage in a greenhouse 50 miles from my house.
At the time, I was tied to the "damn it, it's an AMERICAN tree" attitude. I mistook attitude for vision. The thing was overgrown and had no real direction. In my mind, however, it embodied wild and untamed spirit. In fact it was a mess--that was pointed out to me by some very good, experienced and knowledgeable friends who steered me in a better direction. I listened and finally had a perspective other than my own on the tree. I hadn't stepped back from it with a critical eye since I loved it so much. Those friends had no such emotional investment in it and had no hesitations in removing sometimes very old wood on the tree. It needed all of the pruning and reduction it got.
At the time, I was tied to the "damn it, it's an AMERICAN tree" attitude. I mistook attitude for vision. The thing was overgrown and had no real direction. In my mind, however, it embodied wild and untamed spirit. In fact it was a mess--that was pointed out to me by some very good, experienced and knowledgeable friends who steered me in a better direction. I listened and finally had a perspective other than my own on the tree. I hadn't stepped back from it with a critical eye since I loved it so much. Those friends had no such emotional investment in it and had no hesitations in removing sometimes very old wood on the tree. It needed all of the pruning and reduction it got.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Ok, so this isn’t really a request to be “enlightened” at how “our brains work” with regard to admiring sumo trunks like you originally posted. This is you staking a controversial position against some of the studied guys so you can offer your “experienced” and unsolicited critique. Fair enough, game on.
I didn’t post my trees to seek your opinion or approval; I don’t need or want it, the J Maple has been shown at the US Nationals and is nearly all my work. I posted them to answer your request. I have seen enough of your trees to form my opinion of your style of bonsai: old-school, self-taught, decades of effort in isolation, with nursery trees that have gotten older, but not better through any real skill or technique because you are too cute for school.
Peter Warren (look him up, he’s a teacher, certified by Nippon Bonsai Association afte apprenticing under Master Kunio Kobayashi, and also doesn’t love sumo trunks) said it best standing in my back yard almost 10 years ago: “There are people who practice Bonsai for 30 years, and people who practice Bonsai for 1 year, 30 times over.” Think about this: if you are the loudest, longest-running, senior-most member of your club, it’s likely you are setting the ceiling. Is that good for Bonsai? You won’t be setting it here.
I have yet to benefit from any of the thousands of words and dozen or photos you’ve posted, so we won’t miss each other at all when you land on my ignore list.
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baron
Shohin
Don't want to hijack the topic, but I see all the white deadwood on the pictures @Adair M posted of the Junipers in the mountains.
I always thought the white coloring on deadwood came from treating it with Lime sulfur. Does this happen because of the exposure to the elements?
We don't have native Junipers here...
As for the tater discussion; I think it depends on the tree and is sometimes necessary to achieve a certain goal.
Whenever you chop a trunk for movement, you end up with a possible tater, no?
At least that's what I've been told.. To achieve a big trunk, you have to grow it out and chop it back when it has the desired thickness.
I'just a matter of what you do after the chop. I'm sure those big olive's you see here (like Adair's) were all taters at some point.
I'm not a huge fan of sumo's either, but I wanted at least one to add to my collection. Do you consider this a tater?
I always thought the white coloring on deadwood came from treating it with Lime sulfur. Does this happen because of the exposure to the elements?
We don't have native Junipers here...
As for the tater discussion; I think it depends on the tree and is sometimes necessary to achieve a certain goal.
Whenever you chop a trunk for movement, you end up with a possible tater, no?
At least that's what I've been told.. To achieve a big trunk, you have to grow it out and chop it back when it has the desired thickness.
I'just a matter of what you do after the chop. I'm sure those big olive's you see here (like Adair's) were all taters at some point.
I'm not a huge fan of sumo's either, but I wanted at least one to add to my collection. Do you consider this a tater?
D
Deleted member 21616
Guest
Up in the mountains, at high elevations, the air is dryer, the UV rays are stronger, there’s no mold, mildew, algae, or fungi to attack the deadwood to induce rot. So, yes, the deadwood is white, naturally. (Or a very light grey.)
When we bring the collected trees down from that environment, the deadwood is now subjected to all those potential rotting elements, and it will start to rot! Lime sulfur is used to help prevent the rot, and it dries white, so it has the same look as the tree had in the mountains. There is some manner of skill necessary to make the line sulfur look natural. If painted on straight on dry wood, it will just look like white paint! The technique I use is to wet the deadwood, then let it dry out for about an hour. Then I apply a 50/50 mix of lime sulfur/water using a paint brush. The lime sulfur tends to absorb into the wood. When it dries, it won’t be as stark white, and the texture is the wood grain will still be evident.
baron
Shohin
Thank you for the explanation Adair, did not know that!
choppychoppy
Chumono
So for me this is a tree that just looks like it's been hedged for a number of years but no real Bonsai techniques applied. This is just how they grow and looks like a shrub.
If you take this one below and just trimmed the top shorter and flat you would get the result showed. But I don't see any design, styling, leaf control etc.
This one was tatered and then potted and set. Then again and again and will prob be another time or two to continue to ramify and tighten.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
You mean boon doesn’t take gallons of LS up in the mountains and make you SOBs paint the deadwood with tiny paintbrushes??
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Ok good, just checking to be sure Bjorn wasn’t the only one making his students do this type of activity...?
namnhi
Masterpiece
This is how the old sifus teach his students to be patience. That will automatically remove lazy ones from the pact. Still very valid technique.
JoeR
Masterpiece
I wonder if this style originated from super old collected Tibetan Juniperus indica. Would make a lot of sense for the founders to model it after this
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Seiju Elm from a pencil in ~2002, RIP 2015, and Tamarack forest assembled in 2003 from trees collected by a friend in ~1995. I started bonsai in 1999, Master Gardener, 1978. These qualification questions have no place in a discussion of likes and dislikes. By asking them you imply that someone with some ~acceptable~ level of understanding decides what is good and what is not good. That, is exactly what I object to. And it's why many clubs have Best of Show awarded by judges and People's Choice Award chosen by the attending public, and they only rarely chose the same tree.
