Treeblers verses 'Taters...

[Brian Van Fleet]

Both. For very different reasons. The binary option is nonsense and arbitrary.

The natural look is to be appreciated for being natural. Anyone can look at a tree outside and compare it’s features to this first maple.

The sumo look is meant to be appreciated for the extreme application of Bonsai cultivation techniques. Those who have applied these techniques are more likely to appreciate the sumo look.

Incidentally, I got these two trees on the same day around 17 years ago. They were about the same size. The J. Maple is about 32” tall now, and the trident is 6” tall, and about 2” wider than the J. Maple at the soil line.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

I'm a stick in pot collector.
They are healthy and well loved though.
No taters or trees yet.

Same here friend...I am hoping this thread ends up in a battle of awe inspiring detailed tree pics though. A Pinus pulling contest,if you will. ?

 

[Anthony]

@Forsoothe!

becareful, bonsai is a simple hobby.

But some develop good eyes for extracting trees from the wild or
purchasing from a grower.
They then top dress or apply as we call it a green hat.

Buybonsai or Rotebonsai or other.

If you like to grow from scratch, this discussion will only lead to
depression.

Some here are also about selling trees or services.

On our side we grow for enjoyment and relaxation. In relaxing
the mind, ideas come and are applied to projects.
We treat the bonsai as children.

"Bonsai are the playthings of the idle rich."

"We grow our Bonsai for BEAUTY not lumber or produce."

Have you realised that the akadama / inorganic soil mix is
yet another attempt to freeze the design.
Like another Nutter said about removing leaves from a branch
to slow the thickening in Autumn.
Or the yard shed of dead trees in a professional Japanese grower's
home.

Be careful you lose your interest in Bonsai.
Best wishes,
Anthony

 

[Forsoothe!]

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about with the "full tackle box" stuff. If you have something to say, skip the BS and get down to it. And BTW, fish or cut bait, post some individual close ups of your trees and lets talk comparisons...

You asking me for photos is your standard ploy to avoid intelligent banter. Do you want me to list the strings where you descend into "show us your trees", then I list my past posts of trees and then you change the subject? Keep waiting, because you and I aren't going to have an intelligent exchange because you can't defend your view, you need to attack my view. Go fly a kite.

 

[rockm]

You asking me for photos is your standard ploy to avoid intelligent banter. Do you want me to list the strings where you descend into "show us your trees", then I list my past posts of trees and then you change the subject? Keep waiting, because you and I aren't going to have an intelligent exchange because you can't defend your view, you need to attack my view. Go fly a kite.

It's not a plow. You throw out veiled insults about others' trees, then hide behind these kinds of excuses. You don't have to refer back to past posts. Go out and take some pics of your trees...

There's nothing like a photo to prove your point and illustrate what you're talking about.

For instance, the oak trunk was indeed what you have termed a "tater" when it was initially collected. It was just a limbless stump hacked out of the mid-Texas chaparral. It's proportions were weird--it's base is over a foot across tapering to two inches within two and a half feet of height. However, that compressed trunkline was the basis for a very compact, but large bonsai. That exaggeration in diameter was the heart of the tree'design (as it is for "taters"). All this wasn't all that apparent at the time, but with some help from folks with no emotional investment in the tree, it was reduced in places and grown out in places.

The initial branching was short thin and not much. Same for the top third of the tree. This was for quite a while after initial collection. It took time and a lot of effort to get it to where it is now--and more work remains to bring branching into proportion. The big trunk needs very big branches coming off of it. They're on their way, but I suspect when they're adequate, I will not be around. That may be for someone else to work on...

 

[bonsaidave]

I like all types of trees as long as they are full of wire scars.

 

[Smoke]

I like all types of trees as long as they are full of wire scars.

Oh...I got those too....

 

[Adair M]

Forsoothe, as usual, I have no clue what you’re talking about.

Is this tree a “tater”?

 

[Smoke]

Hey @Forsoothe!
I'll go first. You post tree for tree.

I'll throw out the first potato you show me what you got. I made the tree, and the stand, and the tatami.



I make my trees. I don't purchase them quasi semi finished. I buy a trunk, remove the branches, and start styling the tree. Pay special attention in this profile picture of the trunk with only two turns. Then when you get to the next profile without leaves, check out what I was able to do to the trunk in a season and a half with some tater skills!!




Then as it gets near finish, I may or may not layer the tree off it's roots to better fit the pot I need. In this case I did that. One can see the stubs below and the new roots being held up with a wire so I can safely cut it off.




It may go through a couple pots till I find the one I like. First this Yamaaki in Winter. Another Keppler stand. Wow this guy is talented.



So big mouth post up your best. I'm even going to take you off ignore for this.

 

[Smoke]

You asking me for photos is your standard ploy to avoid intelligent banter. Do you want me to list the strings where you descend into "show us your trees", then I list my past posts of trees and then you change the subject? Keep waiting, because you and I aren't going to have an intelligent exchange because you can't defend your view, you need to attack my view. Go fly a kite.

The posts of your tree was a yard sale of a bunch of bonsai people. The pictures are from so far away no one can tell what they are. If you have a weenie between your legs post a picture of a tree in a suitable picture like everyone else does.

Remember a picture is worth a thousand words and just bantor will usually end quickly as soon as you post a pic. My fortune telling instinct says that is the reason you don't post. I been here since the beginning and 10 years before that. I have seen your kind a hundred times. All mouth and no trees. When finally a tree is posted, the thread just goes away. Of course if your a whiny snowflake democrat, even the truth is not enough for someone like you. Next thing you will want me to submit seven years of tax records.......

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

And...

 

[Smoke]

Sorry Anthony....your still on ignore. I just don't understand anything you say anymore. WTF

 

[Smoke]

Holy mackerel...I'm so stupid.

The challenge was a tree that looks like a tree. I posted a green helmet informal upright. Hell everyone's got some of those.

I counter with this potato. I think this looks like a tree, and it's a freebie.


...and I REALLY made this one.

 

[Adair M]

I believe this is a matter of taste. I used to despise dead wood, I used to dislike junipers because they all looked so artificial. I still do. They still do.
So I bought a bench full of junipers, and I bought a pint of lime sulfur. I'm either going to do it better, or worse, or equal. That's still my goal. I've been going down that road for a year and a bit now, and the more I progress, the more I can see why people do what they do, why they make certain design decisions and completely ignore some other options.
I can't read minds and there's too few people to talk to in real life about this, even fewer that could convince me. So I started my own journey.

I'm doing the same thing for potatoes. I don't expect others to provide me a good explanation, or a start to finish progression thread. So I just make my own.
I think parents can tell you that all other babies look like dried shrimps after they've been born, but not their own. Theirs is beautiful. I'm testing if that's true for trees as well. But I already know the answer.

Re: the deadwood junipers... you live in the Netherlands, so there’s no native deadwood junipers where you live. Here in the southeast United States, there aren’t any here, either. I was much like you, I really didn’t appreciate the deadwood junipers because we don’t have them in my environment.

When I started studying with Boon, he had many in his garden. Some finished bonsai and a lot of raw material. Seeing the raw collected material gave me a better idea of what they look like “for real”.

And then, Boon took a couple of us up into the mountains to see the trees:



That deadwood doesn’t look so artificial to me now!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Both. For very different reasons. The binary option is nonsense and arbitrary.

The natural look is to be appreciated for being natural. Anyone can look at a tree outside and compare it’s features to this first maple.
View attachment 235368
The sumo look is meant to be appreciated for the extreme application of Bonsai cultivation techniques. Those who have applied these techniques are more likely to appreciate the sumo look.
View attachment 235369
Incidentally, I got these two trees on the same day around 17 years ago. They were about the same size. The J. Maple is about 32” tall now, and the trident is 6” tall, and about 2” wider than the J. Maple at the soil line.

The top one is handsome. The bottom is a "Tater. I'm sure it took great effort and skill, but it's not handsome. It's really not handsome.

 

[Anthony]

Apologies Al,

these arguments that come by about trees - are so
shallow and disruptive.
Trees in nature have many, many, shapes.
Some please many eyes, some don't.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Forsoothe!]

FWIW,

Oak stump -- trunk is 260 years old. Branching is 25
View attachment 235364



Cedar elm stump--trunk is 50, all branching including the top third of the trunk is less than 25 years old

View attachment 235365


Boxwood stump--apex and all branching less than 15 years. Trunk is from a 50 year old hedge chopped down in Arlington...
View attachment 235366

All a little too tall for my tastes. But I have some too tall, too.

Siberian Peashrub from club auction, 2001. Green Mound from 2008 workshop. Forest, saplings ~2001.

 

[Forsoothe!]

@Forsoothe!

becareful, bonsai is a simple hobby.

But some develop good eyes for extracting trees from the wild or
purchasing from a grower.
They then top dress or apply as we call it a green hat.

Buybonsai or Rotebonsai or other.

If you like to grow from scratch, this discussion will only lead to
depression.

Some here are also about selling trees or services.

On our side we grow for enjoyment and relaxation. In relaxing
the mind, ideas come and are applied to projects.
We treat the bonsai as children.

"Bonsai are the playthings of the idle rich."

"We grow our Bonsai for BEAUTY not lumber or produce."

Have you realised that the akadama / inorganic soil mix is
yet another attempt to freeze the design.
Like another Nutter said about removing leaves from a branch
to slow the thickening in Autumn.
Or the yard shed of dead trees in a professional Japanese grower's
home.

Be careful you lose your interest in Bonsai.
Best wishes,
Anthony

Some do and some do not. I do not automatically admire great age. I admire graceful form. Squat is not graceful regardless of how much skill and time it takes to produce it. Others have different standards of "beauty", which I respect for what it is. Great age along with graceful form is a worthwhile goal, for me.

 

[Forsoothe!]

For instance, the oak trunk was indeed what you have termed a "tater" when it was initially collected. It was just a limbless stump hacked out of the mid-Texas chaparral.

The top is still strange and too unlike the lower trunk. The Cedar Elm has the same discontinuous top and bottom trunk lines that do not look like they were created in the same conditions. Whatever design we impose on trees, collected or otherwise, should impress the viewer as a continuous time-line. The best trees have a taper which is believable. If you want a tree that looks like it was broken in two half way through its life, that's fine, but it's not a reflection of a graceful form. To each, his own.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I believe this is a matter of taste. I used to despise dead wood, I used to dislike junipers because they all looked so artificial. I still do. They still do.
So I bought a bench full of junipers, and I bought a pint of lime sulfur. I'm either going to do it better, or worse, or equal. That's still my goal. I've been going down that road for a year and a bit now, and the more I progress, the more I can see why people do what they do, why they make certain design decisions and completely ignore some other options.
I can't read minds and there's too few people to talk to in real life about this, even fewer that could convince me. So I started my own journey.

I'm doing the same thing for potatoes. I don't expect others to provide me a good explanation, or a start to finish progression thread. So I just make my own.
I think parents can tell you that all other babies look like dried shrimps after they've been born, but not their own. Theirs is beautiful. I'm testing if that's true for trees as well. But I already know the answer.

I like graceful deadwood, too.