Think you need a teacher?

[Smoke]

While I have no desire to push my agenda on this topic, it does interest me. It interests me to the point that I would love to hear what others think. I am not here for the debate just love reading.

For the purposes of this thread names do not really matter and the monetary values I use will be fictitious, but it should make a point.

During my tenure in bonsai I have had many bonsai friends, many right here on the boards and many in real life. I have seen lots of trees from people over the years and many collections. Many trees at exhibits and many trees at conventions. What strikes me is the amount of effort that is made in finding a suitable teacher, be it a bonsai professional fresh from Japan, or a more traveled teacher that has been doing this for decades and has made a name for themselves. Many times it can even be a teacher that has spent only three months in Japan and that somehow qualifies them to pull in hundreds of dollars teaching bonsai.

My point is that I see people, even in my own city, that spend thousands on teachers of very high skill levels and yet bring the same old tired material that they have worked on for decades expecting a miracle to happen with a good teacher. While I have no doubt that a good teacher is someone that can indeed pass on many techniques that can surly transform mediocre bonsai into more beautiful bonsai.

It seems as though some can justify spending a thousand dollars a year or more on a teacher but would never spend a thousand dollars on a piece of material. In my opinion I think anyone with a desire to spend a thousand dollars on a teacher could probably handle a thousand dollar piece of material and probably do justice to that on their own with out a teacher, but that's my opinion.

Is there an attitude that by spending huge sums of money on a teacher that you will magically ascertain the ability to continue with working with crappy cheap material and turn it into something special?

or....

is one spending the money on the education bringing crappy material to workshops and teaching environments knowing full well that after the education they will dump the crap and begin spending money on the material they should have bought in the first place?

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

 

[gergwebber]

no I don't know what you are talking about.

but thankfully there are a lot of great artists out there working dilligently on their blogs and thats helping a lot.

 

[stacy allen muse]

Not sure if this will actually be seen, since I am having trouble with
posts not showing...

But, I agree with you.

I would say that I think everyone learns differently though.
I personally have found that I learn best through trial and error.
And couldn't think of a worse thing than studying underneath
a teacher.

For others, they learn best through someone showing them what
to do, and what not to do. Would I say this is wrong ??? No, not
at all, if this is what works for someone, then by all means...

I think where the problem is, and what you are hinting at is that
they are not taking this experience and expanding on it... They
are not taking it to the next level, and are just "Reproducing"
identical trees...

I think the question is how does one teach how to take these
fundamental guidelines, that they have just been taught, and
build on them. Often this building means just throwing them
out the window and just being creative.

 

[bonsai barry]

I am uniquely unqualified to speak to this topic since I've never spent thousands on material or instruction. If I did spend the money on training, I would assume my goal would not be to bring "the same old tired material" to the master in order for it to be turned into a miracle tree. My goal would be to increase my knowlege of horticulture and bonsai aesthetics so that I could utilize that newly gained wisdom in working with either my tired old stuff or new stuff costing infinitely more.

 

[Brian Underwood]

Personally when I know I will be working with a teacher for a long workshop, I will buy a new, high quality piece of material specifically for that workshop in order to learn as much as I can, as can be seen here; http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7698-Workshop-with-Ryan-Neil-February-2012

However, I rarely spend more than a couple hundred bucks on any one piece of material, with the exception of my few $400 purchases. If I had the money, and I absolutely fell in love with a tree and had to have it, I could see myself spending more. Other than monetary issues, I think spending time with a knowledgeable teacher on quality material is very valuable. Even just sitting in and watching/listening to a workshop is time well spent if you learn something. I attend monthly workshops with my teacher, and I still learn something every time.

I guess that answered your question...

 

[Brian Underwood]

Oh, to address the other question; Yes, I think some people expect a teacher to somehow work a miracle out of their crappy material. And yes, some others think that they will somehow come away with years of knowledge from one day with a "master," but not everyone has these silly dreams.

 

[lordy]

I think it goes a long way to point out that the material is key. If you start with substandard material, even a "bonsai god" cant make it into something much more. With a good starting point most moderately proficient bonsai practitioners should be able to come up with a decent example of what many strive for.

 

[JudyB]

I have the exact opposite approach. I'm almost completely self taught. I mean that in the sense that I've not had a teacher per se. I've learned it all from books, forums, websites...and had a few online tutoring sessions with a teacher, to help me with the learning curve on pines. I've been lucky to have gotten great advice from generous people here and other places. If I lived closer to an area where there were schools available, I may have gone that route. I only this Jan. joined a club, but I'm not sure how much I'll "learn" there.

I spend all my budget on good material. (except for the money for wire, soil, pots etc...)

I think there is a general feeling out there, that you should have a teacher, join a club....

 

[october]

I have an example running parallel to this. I used to be a certified personal fitness trainer. People would come to me to get in very good physical shape. Most people would do 2 sessions of week. Sometimes it seemed like they would think that by spending 2 hours a week with a trainer. It was going to magically transform them into this lean, physically fit person. However, most would not do anything conducive to the fitness lifestyle outside the sessions. They would skip cardio for the week and not watch their diet. Yet, they would continue to come to me and struggle through the workouts. As a trainer, I would continuously stress that if they are ever going to get any benefit from these sessions, they would need to do things outside of the sessions. On one hand, I could not understand why, if you are paying the money to get healthy and in shape, why would you do nothing to achieve that. Ironically, enough, some did not even care. They knew they weren't progressing and they did not seem to care. In fact, I cared more about their results than they did. I think that might be the case in bonsai sometimes. People just don't care. They have an ok tree, one step above a stick in a pot and they are fine with that.

Just like being a trainer, I believe a bonsai teacher needs to be supportive, but also has to let the student know that it is important to pick out good material and study. The teacher should be nice, but make a strong point. The point being that unless you learn more and become able to pick out better material. Then your bonsai will not progress or excel. Spending a couple of hours every few months with a bonsai teacher and then doing nothing outside of that yields very little and very slow results. Just like the person that workouts with a trainer 2 hours a week, but eats whatever they want and slacks on the workouts when the trainer is not around.

Rob

 

[Nybonsai12]

I have no doubt a teacher could provide a wealth of information, but one piece of advice I have heard over and over is "spend the money and get yourself a really nice piece of material to work with". And while I may enjoy messing around with my $15 quince from Home Depot, I know it can't compare to much more expensive material that has been trained for bonsai. I'm not saying a teacher can't help because face to face communication is great, but with blogs, forums, websites, books, there is a great deal of information available for a fraction of the cost.

 

[ABCarve]

For me, the joy is in that act of doing bonsai. Clipping and chewing it into a vision that's mine. I have never exhibited, other than my home and I'm very comfortable with that. Some people like their hand held. All of us do once in a while. They may not have a vision and are looking to continue someone elses. Hopefully they're enjoying the beauty in the trees and community of bonsai. Just like this forum!

 

[chris38383838]

It does indeed ring a bell for me. Some people spend their time on mixing new bonsai soils, trying new fertilizers, concocting some concrete recipes for root over rock plantations, air layering some stuff that has no potential, attending special bonsai classes on specific topics, collecting ''yamadoris'' that have the trunk size of my little finger. Some even run their own website and give their own bonsai classes to beginners. When it comes to their trees, well it shows that they spent all their time and money on the previous activities. Most of their trees are unworked and/or have absolutely no potential. What strikes me the most is that even after 30 years in bonsai, they still have some trees that will never give good bonsai: firs, pinus strobus and canadian maples are good examples.

That being said, I love these people. If it weren't for them, we'd have no bonsai association in my city. I definitely am in learning process: I'm still young (25) and I've been doing bonsai for 4 years now. I can say I learn a lot from the mistakes they made and still make.

The good thing is that I have some true bonsai ''masters''(I like to call them like that) that I can rely on here. I can compare the path they chose to get to where they are. Some even made it into the Rochester exhibition this year. I think the main difference is in the amount of work they put into their trees. I think that I can't stress enough how it's important to wire your trees. Another thing is that they always work on material that has potential: appropriate species, trunk size, etc. Lastly, they gather with other experts and do workshops. That way they can get other opinions on their trees and discuss possibilities to improve them.

So my plan for the next years is to work on my pre-bonsai stuff the most I can, learn how to keep them alive, learn how they respond when being worked on, and save my money to buy some nice stuff once in a while! Thanks for this post, it was a nice brainstorming to have!

 

[Poink88]

I've never paid for a bonsai class yet but love to play with my trees...several times a day (schedule permitting). I am new but I (believe) can see and learn from other people's work...both from good and bad. I can tell which ones I like and what's wrong (or I don't like) on others.

I also never paid much for trees. I believe $200 is my most expensive and majority are actually free. I am a member of a club but not very active (probably attended less than 5 meetings last year) and honestly, did not learn much from them either. I rely on books, mags, online articles, blogs, and forums. For me, I believe it works but this style is not for everyone.

I do a lot of reading...even before my first purchase. I had a game plan (right or wrong) before I jumped. It hasn't changed yet and I am happy with my results so far. It doesn't hurt to have luck too.

One world pistol shooting champion once said he believes in luck but find that the more he practice (he shoots several thousand rounds a day)...the luckier he gets.

I am not in anyway belittling the importance of good teacher/workshop/class/material...they are for sure great if you have access to them, have time, or can afford them. Just so happened that I don't have any of the 3 so I make do.

My analogy is a racecar and a driver. It is almost useless to have an F1 (if it is legal to drive) on a street. You need to go to the the racetrack for it to shine. Likewise, the driver have to have the skill to take advantage of what it offers. A great race driver also can only push a street car so much...even on a race track. You need to match both to get the most out of it.

 

[dick benbow]

Throwing money at anything, in any field often ends in things less than to be desired. I have been fortunate to be accepted into some highly talented teachers study groups and have been able to pick up
something from each of them, technique and knowledge wise. I think this type of opportunity
opens up one's eyes to seeing what is possible.
I also value getting together with friends and working on trees and discussing tweaks that can make our trees better. It seems the longer you have something the more difficult it is to really see the possibilities. Sometimes just another set of eyes helps.
Regarding trees, I learnd a good lesson after retiring on a strict budget . I used to always buy the best yamadori I could afford for each new class. One to get something really good and another to find something I heard the teacher liked to work on (thier favorite). This last time I had nothing allocated $$$$ wise, so went and purchased a blue atlas cedar at about a qtr of the price i used to spend, justifying it all that I needed something blue among my green group. There were five others in the class with this teacher ( kimura trained) and if I do say so myself, I felt my offering was on the same equal parr desing wise as a really beautiful ponderosa pine.
If I've learned anything along the way by studying other students, there are those that like to keep a well developed tree and that is their satisfaction. And there are others who love
bring a tree to fruition under their own skill set. When I go to visit other personal collections, the thing that speaks to me is seeing a set of trees that speaks highly of the care and grooming of the owner. They may not be show trees in all respects, but they represent the knowledge and effort given them by their owner.
I quess that's all I'd like to hear from those that have visited my collection. That the trees looked good and healthy, and well cared for.

 

[Beng]

I think it really depends. I for one live in Brooklyn, we don't have much if any bonsai community to learn from as most people don't live in residential areas or have the space for a garden. There is a club in long island but it's not for me.

Every once and awhile I get down to the Washington area to take part in Bonsai activities with a few of the members of the Arlington club. I was out in Portland this past fall and had the opportunity to met lots of talented people at a BSOP xmas party. Great bunch of people and information. Since we don't have collectable material or bonsai nurseries in my city I find I travel to learn, or find specimens to work on. Years ago a friend and I would travel to Massachusetts to take lessons with Suthin Sukosolvisit. The information from those classes just couldn't be found in books. You can look at a million diagrams for proper wiring, grafting, repotting, deadwood creation and so on but it's a whole other thing to see it done in person. Although i've been doing bonsai for many years now there's always more to learn. Late this spring i'm taking a class with Marc Noelanders at Natures Way, looking forward to it. If I had a great local club I may not pay for classes as a good club will have lots of members to learn from and activities involving talented teachers.

I'll continue to pay for good instruction. If you only learn from the net and books you really only have your view on things. There is a lot to learn from the way others think about styling.

 

[Fallen_Reality]

Of course it always depends on the teacher, but I believe it's not just knowledge that a good teacher can impart.

Knowledge is a component that must be taught to a certain degree, but much of what can be taught about growing and pruning is available in one form or another. Not all, obviously, but a great percentage.

The quality that is just as important as knowledge is an eye for the artistic beauty of a tree, or the lack thereof. It takes years to find the ability to see a tree's potential, and I believe that can be hastened with the tutelage of a seasoned teacher. Much of what I see online that people call "bonsai" is lacking any artistry or knowledge. It's not enough to know the "rules" of bonsai design, but you must also know how and when to break these rules to compliment the way a tree will look best.

Unfortunately, people who fill both of these roles are exceptionally rare in any nation except the birthplaces of bonsai and penjing, Japan and China. Even in these nations, I hear there are less of them than there once was.

There is a series of Youtube videos that show what I am trying to convey. The Bjorvala Bonsai Studio Channel shows videos from a student (Bjorn Bjorholm) who went to Japan and learned from just such a Master, Keiichi Fujikawa. Kouka-en (the nursery) takes bonsai that have not been maintained well and transform them into works of art. We need more people with this kind of knowledge instead of what we currently have for much of our bonsai teaching options.

 

[Vance Wood]

No amount of money can improve your bonsai, unless you purchase completed bonsai from a recognized master, if you lack the imagination, motivation, and skill to work with great stock or a great master. I know someone who has worked with a highly respected Master for nearly ten years and still has nothing to show for his/her efforts.

As for me with the exception of 1960-62 when I was mentored by a local master in Northern California back in the day when a master was defined as someone who has been doing bonsai long enough to have survived more mistakes than I, I am pretty much self taught.

Would I like to be able to afford really geat world class material? Absolutely, I would also like to fly and live for ever but that's not going to happen either. Would I like to have studied with a great master? Absolutely, but if you look into that issue with the exception of Yoshimura, and Naka, until recently, maybe the last thirty years, those people were not available. Would a good teacher have helped me develop quicker? Yes that would or should be probable, but sometimes you have to play the cards you have been dealt.

 

[gergwebber]

It does indeed ring a bell for me. Some people spend their time... air layering some stuff that has no potential.... trees are and/or have absolutely no potential... they still have some trees that will never give good bonsai...

Another thing is that they always work on material that has potential: appropriate species, trunk size, etc. Lastly, they gather with other experts and do workshops.... and save my money to buy some nice stuff once in a while!

I AM NOT PICKING ON CHRIS.

but can anyone tell me what the rules are for trees with potential? I would hate to spend any of more time in my trees to find out none of them have any potential. But I hear these types of phrases and sometimes wonder: are there really trees with no potential? It would be nice to have some basic guide-lines to follow on this as I think I may have to fire up the composter and thin out my forrest a bit.

 

[Poink88]

I AM NOT PICKING ON CHRIS.

but can anyone tell me what the rules are for trees with potential? I would hate to spend any of more time in my trees to find out none of them have any potential. But I hear these types of phrases and sometimes wonder: are there really trees with no potential? It would be nice to have some basic guide-lines to follow on this as I think I may have to fire up the composter and thin out my forrest a bit.

For me all trees have potential...some just need more time and work. If a seed or a small cutting have why won't a established plant? That is my belief at least.

 

[bonhe]

For me, coming to bonsai class every month is an excellent time even though at this time, I almost squeezed out all of my sensei's knowledge!

I paid very minimal annual fee ($100), but fee is for the treat in the end of class (not sake, but some Japanese cookies, soft drink, coffee). But that is not important! The critical point is that I really have a good time with other students in class (by the way, I am a youngest one in the class! Others are over 70 y.o.). I have been learned not only their bonsai knowledges but things outside of bonsai! For me, it is invaluable!

Talking about the bonsai stock? Many my excellent prebonsai stocks are coming from the my sensei's garden and they were absolutely free of charges! No kidding!
Bonhe