Boxwood Styling 101 (I need a teacher!!)

[samalaut]

Hey folks!!.

New to the forum. Been on a couple other forums but this one seems a lot more Active.

Looking for some "styling tips" on this little boxwood. I've been staring at it for Weeks and I haven't been able to come up with a plan for it. I think it has a good nebari, nice trunk, but It has imho, way to many vertical trunks and I just can't envision what this little guy wants to be (or what I want to will it to be).

Most of the exposed branches are pretty stiff. I can get maybe an "Inch" of movement from them.

It has 3 Main branches in the front, and 3 in the back. I'm not sure whether I should cut the rear branches? Cut the front center branch? As I said, i'm just not seeing a lot I like, other than the nebari and main trunk.

This is what I started with


Got it to here:


And this is where I'm at now:


Thanks for any Insights!!

 

[sorce]

You're not in a terrible spot for a broom start....

Keep staring and let it go a bit.

I read. Don t know how true......that If you take off that much of the top of box,you gotta cut the roots down too.

I know I hacked the s out of both ends of one and it came through.

Sorce

 

[milehigh_7]

First of all, welcome to the Nut House!

Second, I don't know very much but here is what I do know:

I've been staring at it for Weeks [...]

This is the key keep staring, don't get in a hurry.

what this little guy wants to be

Again another key. It's ours to bring out the tree that is already there. Not force it into our mold. So you are doing good here.

i'm just not seeing a lot I like, other than the nebari and main trunk.

Pretty much this is the biggest part of where we start. Everyone says the branches and top come later but we must grow trunks and work the roots.

Now I have also heard that you have to reduce the roots and top by equal amounts when chopping back. I am hoping you get some additional advice because boxwood and I don't get along real well.

I did see something interesting I intend to try one day and that is grafting onto an boxwood trunk. It seems so much easier to find a nice base than correct those big thick branches. You might be able to bend them incrementally with turnbuckles and the like.

 

[samalaut]

You're not in a terrible spot for a broom start....

Keep staring and let it go a bit.

I read. Don t know how true......that If you take off that much of the top of box,you gotta cut the roots down too.

I know I hacked the s out of both ends of one and it came through.

Sorce

Hmmmm....I thought leaving it in the nursery container would allow it to "grow" a better at this stage. So I assume your suggesting root pruning and getting it into a training pot with 'bonsai' soil?

I've been "doodling" some idea's. maybe I'll post those when I get a chance. I have some carving skills...was thinking about maybe adding some deadwood? thoughts?

thanks

 

[jk_lewis]

You have a good start here.

There is no need to trim the roots if you don't want to. But, assuming you are in the northern hemisphere, spring is a coming in, and that's the best time to do the roots.

We, of course, have NO idea where you live, so PLEASE fill out your profile to give us some idea of the region of the wold you occupy.

Boxwood has the advantage of having no well-defined "natural" shape, so you can go pretty much in any direction with them. One well-known Japanese who moved here (USA) many years ago builds boxwoods along the lines of many old junipers we've all seen -- complete with copious deadwood. They're very effective.

Others of us who do boxwoods and live in the Southeastern USA (and out in the West Coast) like to do boxwoods that resemble the broad umbrella shape of the live oak. And there are all kinds of shapes in between.

Your tree doesn't holler "Juniper!" and "deadwood!" to me at all, so maybe you could study pictures of the broad evergreen oaks on both of the USA coasts (see the Coast Live Oak, Quercus virginiana, below). Or, if you live in Croatia or Iceland, or Italy, or South Africa, perhaps there is a local tree shape that would do for you.

Your tree seems to have branches that still are bendable to begin the broad shape of one of the oaks. Use heavy wire!

Wherever you live, please looks for a bonsai club near you. Someone there can give you real, hands-on advice.

I've also posted a picture of one of my "live oak" boxwood bonsai.

But first, fill out your profile! Thanks.

 

[samalaut]

You have a good start here.

There is no need to trim the roots if you don't want to. But, assuming you are in the northern hemisphere, spring is a coming in, and that's the best time to do the roots.

We, of course, have NO idea where you live, so PLEASE fill out your profile to give us some idea of the region of the wold you occupy.

Boxwood has the advantage of having no well-defined "natural" shape, so you can go pretty much in any direction with them. One well-known Japanese who moved here (USA) many years ago builds boxwoods along the lines of many old junipers we've all seen -- complete with copious deadwood. They're very effective.

Others of us who do boxwoods and live in the Southeastern USA (and out in the West Coast) like to do boxwoods that resemble the broad umbrella shape of the live oak. And there are all kinds of shapes in between.

Your tree doesn't holler "Juniper!" and "deadwood!" to me at all, so maybe you could study pictures of the broad evergreen oaks on both of the USA coasts (see the Coast Live Oak, Quercus virginiana, below). Or, if you live in Croatia or Iceland, or Italy, or South Africa, perhaps there is a local tree shape that would do for you.

Your tree seems to have branches that still are bendable to begin the broad shape of one of the oaks. Use heavy wire!

Wherever you live, please looks for a bonsai club near you. Someone there can give you real, hands-on advice.

I've also posted a picture of one of my "live oak" boxwood bonsai.

But first, fill out your profile! Thanks.

Thanks JKL....Profile is filled out!!

Your boxwood looks great. But mine just screams "I'm confused, so I want to look like a bush" (which is smart, since he is!!).

Since I'm from Pennsylvania (Eastern and western) we have many an Oak tree. And I'm sure with a lot of wire I can start her down that path. I'm not a fan of the formal broom style and I'm still thinking there are way too many big branches coming off the trunk. I do have some carving skills (rusty skills, but skills non the less), so I might think about some oru/shari/etc...

I think I'll sit down with a bottle wine and see if I can come up with some ideas. What kind of wine goes with Boxwood? Any Sommeliers out there?

 

[Vin]

I'm not trying to butt in but you've removed quite a bit of foliage. Boxwoods are pretty tough but you really need to let the tree rest for a bit before you start working on it again. A bit means a few months or more at the very least. Some wiring of the smaller branches won't hurt but that's it for now. I lost a really nice one last year because I worked it just one time to many. When you do start pruning again, always remember to prune for taper. Good luck and nice boxwood.

 

[jeremy_norbury]

Hey folks!!.

New to the forum. Been on a couple other forums but this one seems a lot more Active.

Looking for some "styling tips" on this little boxwood. I've been staring at it for Weeks and I haven't been able to come up with a plan for it. I think it has a good nebari, nice trunk, but It has imho, way to many vertical trunks and I just can't envision what this little guy wants to be (or what I want to will it to be).

Most of the exposed branches are pretty stiff. I can get maybe an "Inch" of movement from them.

It has 3 Main branches in the front, and 3 in the back. I'm not sure whether I should cut the rear branches? Cut the front center branch? As I said, i'm just not seeing a lot I like, other than the nebari and main trunk.

This is what I started with
View attachment 66335

Got it to here:
View attachment 66336

And this is where I'm at now:
View attachment 66337

Thanks for any Insights!!

You made some typical beginner mistakes:

- of not having a plan or a drawing of what you were trying to achieve
- removing entire branches when you should be shortening them
- removing lower foliage and over exposing the trunk
- trying to use the whole tree in the design.

When you take a piece of raw material like this, the bonsai tree is somewhere in the lower 1/2 to 1/3rd of the plant, closest to the soil.

- that means that the lowest branches are the most valuable on the tree (they are typically the hardest to replace or grow back, so should not be removed lightly)

Here's something I wrote for reddit /r/bonsai subreddit

Simple raw-plant/bush to bonsai pruning advice


- You need a plan BEFORE you start - it's highly unlikely that the bonsai tree inside the bush simply jumps out at you and absolutely not as a beginner.
- It's best to make a drawing of what you think it will look like first
- Try to remove as little foliage as possible to achieve the design
- My guess is that every 20% of the mass you remove is at least a whole year's worth of growth!

Focus initially on getting the proportions right:

- The target height is something you decide based on the girth and movement in the trunk. A rule of thumb is 6:1 - trunk girth to height.
- before you remove anything you need to rotate the plant and look at it from all angles, moving branches aside to get a good idea of what's there.
- Move foliage around and shield pieces with your hand to imagine what the tree would look like without that piece of foliage/branch.
- Target height will almost never be more than 1/2 of the original plant.

- Low branches are more important than high branches - you need to have at least one which starts no higher than 1/3 of the target height.
There is an implication here, that since the original height is 2-3x taller than the target height, your lowest branch must start in the first 1/10th to 1/6th of the original height!
get your head round that for a second - if I have a raw tree 25cm/10inches tall, I need a branch which starts somewhere between 3-5cm/1 to 2inches from the soil! That's why good material is hard to find.
Failing to get this proportion correct (i.e. choosing the wrong starting material) is a fundamental failure amongst most beginners. They see the original plant as the whole thing and later the proportions are all wrong.

And then simple pruning advice:

- don't remove branches, just shorten them - you can always remove them later but you can't stick them back on.
- work your way from the outside to the inside, reducing the length of the branches (and thus the amount of foliage).
- wire branches into place if they are not perfectly positioned, don't remove them!
- never remove all the foliage from a Juniper branch - it will kill that branch
- do not remove secondary and tertiary branches which are close to the trunk - these can/will be vital later.
- The tree needs branches all the way round - so shorten a branch a bit and then spin it round and do the next one and then spin it.
- do not expose the trunk on one side - that's a mistake.
- do keep spinning the tree - it is best to leave all your options open on the "front" until later into the pruning.

Hope this helps.

 

[jeremy_norbury]

Here's an example - not me, I'm "small_trunks" on Reddit

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/1d2oyj/finally_finished_after_3_days_my_first_buxus_from/

 

[edprocoat]

The Idea to trim top and bottom the same is for when you trim the roots. The reason is that the roots needs to supply nutrients and more importantly hydration to the leaves, when you trim off say half the roots and it has much more leaves the plant struggles to feed the leaves and may die. But more roots than leaves is fine. As mentioned it is a great looking broom start right now and if it were mine I would try a broom style with it. Leave it alone this year, next year it shows sign of new healthy growth its time to do some styling or root reduction.


ed

 

[samalaut]

The Idea to trim top and bottom the same is for when you trim the roots. The reason is that the roots needs to supply nutrients and more importantly hydration to the leaves, when you trim off say half the roots and it has much more leaves the plant struggles to feed the leaves and may die. But more roots than leaves is fine. As mentioned it is a great looking broom start right now and if it were mine I would try a broom style with it. Leave it alone this year, next year it shows sign of new healthy growth its time to do some styling or root reduction.


ed

That was my inclination. Since the tree was originally 30" inches tall, and there was SO much "Internal" clutter, I decided to clean it up and let it recover/grow in the nursery container for the summer. And i'm hoping when it's time to repot, the branches would be a little more flexible and I would be able to move things around a bit easier.

I still have a problem with too many branches? It seems if I removed the center front branch, i can cover that by carving a hollow....thoughts?

Thanks

 

[samalaut]

You made some typical beginner mistakes:

- of not having a plan or a drawing of what you were trying to achieve
- removing entire branches when you should be shortening them
- removing lower foliage and over exposing the trunk
- trying to use the whole tree in the design.

When you take a piece of raw material like this, the bonsai tree is somewhere in the lower 1/2 to 1/3rd of the plant, closest to the soil.

- that means that the lowest branches are the most valuable on the tree (they are typically the hardest to replace or grow back, so should not be removed lightly)

Here's something I wrote for reddit /r/bonsai subreddit

Simple raw-plant/bush to bonsai pruning advice


- You need a plan BEFORE you start - it's highly unlikely that the bonsai tree inside the bush simply jumps out at you and absolutely not as a beginner.
- It's best to make a drawing of what you think it will look like first
- Try to remove as little foliage as possible to achieve the design
- My guess is that every 20% of the mass you remove is at least a whole year's worth of growth!

Focus initially on getting the proportions right:

- The target height is something you decide based on the girth and movement in the trunk. A rule of thumb is 6:1 - trunk girth to height.
- before you remove anything you need to rotate the plant and look at it from all angles, moving branches aside to get a good idea of what's there.
- Move foliage around and shield pieces with your hand to imagine what the tree would look like without that piece of foliage/branch.
- Target height will almost never be more than 1/2 of the original plant.

- Low branches are more important than high branches - you need to have at least one which starts no higher than 1/3 of the target height.
There is an implication here, that since the original height is 2-3x taller than the target height, your lowest branch must start in the first 1/10th to 1/6th of the original height!
get your head round that for a second - if I have a raw tree 25cm/10inches tall, I need a branch which starts somewhere between 3-5cm/1 to 2inches from the soil! That's why good material is hard to find.
Failing to get this proportion correct (i.e. choosing the wrong starting material) is a fundamental failure amongst most beginners. They see the original plant as the whole thing and later the proportions are all wrong.

And then simple pruning advice:

- don't remove branches, just shorten them - you can always remove them later but you can't stick them back on.
- work your way from the outside to the inside, reducing the length of the branches (and thus the amount of foliage).
- wire branches into place if they are not perfectly positioned, don't remove them!
- never remove all the foliage from a Juniper branch - it will kill that branch
- do not remove secondary and tertiary branches which are close to the trunk - these can/will be vital later.
- The tree needs branches all the way round - so shorten a branch a bit and then spin it round and do the next one and then spin it.
- do not expose the trunk on one side - that's a mistake.
- do keep spinning the tree - it is best to leave all your options open on the "front" until later into the pruning.

Hope this helps.

I agree with most (if not all) of what your saying. And I do appreciate your suggestions/knowledge.

In actuality, I didn't remove any lower branches (ok, one!!) . The picture of the original tree was the back. My current front had a single crossing branch that was also coming straight out, which I felt really needed to be removed.

Do you think it was a mistake to "thin" out this boxus? I left all the "exterior" branches and pruned the main shoots to a smaller branch to create taper. The branches on the tree now were 18" longer than they are now. .

And agian, being new to Bonsai, I almost needed this trimmed down and thinned out to be able to see what I actually had....

 

[M. Frary]

What Mr. Norbury is getting at is you should have left foliage close to the trunk to cut it back to. You should only cut back to green on boxwoods to be safe and insure growth of new branches near the trunk.
If it were mine I would cut it way back to get some back budding and get taper in the branches.

 

[milehigh_7]

Samalaut, just to tell you the quality of help you are getting, check out some of Jeremy's stuff :

https://www.flickr.com/photos/norbury/sets/72157607802493717/


It has always been one of my favorite parts of the bonsai community in that noobs like us can get help from people who are really accomplished. I remember when I started thinking how cool it was to have checked out books from the library then get questions answered online from the authors of the books I had just checked out. Anyway sorry to go off topic.

 

[KennedyMarx]

I agree with Frary. I would let it growth healthy to build up vigor, then cut back hard (everything back to th first two sets of leaves). That would get you some back budding and start getting some taper on the branches. After that you can start branch selection and work on wiring while the growth is still limber. Old boxwood branches get stiff and impossible to move with wire.

 

[samalaut]

Samalaut, just to tell you the quality of help you are getting, check out some of Jeremy's stuff :

https://www.flickr.com/photos/norbury/sets/72157607802493717/


It has always been one of my favorite parts of the bonsai community in that noobs like us can get help from people who are really accomplished. I remember when I started thinking how cool it was to have checked out books from the library then get questions answered online from the authors of the books I had just checked out. Anyway sorry to go off topic.

AWESOME Trees!!! And no apologies needed, and obviously Jeremy is most accomplished and his work says it all.

I guess one of the hard parts of getting into Bonsai (and using forums) is that if I posted the first picture and asked for some "styling advice" you would of laughed me off the board since you can't see anything in the Pics...... I learn quickly and I'll Most Definitely take all your comments in to account on my next project. I'll see if I can get some taper in the existing branches and let her grow for the year.

Thanks Again!!

 

[jeremy_norbury]

AWESOME Trees!!! And no apologies needed, and obviously Jeremy is most accomplished and his work says it all.

I guess one of the hard parts of getting into Bonsai (and using forums) is that if I posted the first picture and asked for some "styling advice" you would of laughed me off the board since you can't see anything in the Pics...... I learn quickly and I'll Most Definitely take all your comments in to account on my next project. I'll see if I can get some taper in the existing branches and let her grow for the year.

Thanks Again!!

Thanks. I wouldn't laugh you off the board by asking for advice with a new tree. I would laugh you off the board for not listening, however

Here's an example of a Juniper procumbens nana - your archetypal US mallsai : https://www.flickr.com/photos/norbury/sets/72157625883061534

I work my way down and inwards toward the trunk and the roots, not up and out. It's important to realise your future bonsai is somewhere in the lower 1/3rd of the starting material. You should hardly every even try to use the whole plant as the bonsai.