Ok--now that azalea justification is just flat weak. Every time I see a pine tree azalea I cannot escape its contrived odd-ballness. The Japanese competition books are full of elegant and mysterious azaleas that are dark and captivating--they seem so at ease.
The "Rules" of bonsai
- Thread starter Adair M
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Coh, there are JBP with deadwood features. It's not forbidden, but it's not the the usual styling. As I said, "It depends".
As for alternate styling models for azalea... azalea are evergreens. Well, there ARE some that lose all their foliage in winter, I was referring to Satsuki. So, I think a good model for an azalea might be a Southern Magnolia.
Actually, I was having a bit of fun with the whole concept of the Naturalists view that the bonsai should look like the tree does in nature. And the triangular forms we force the trees into is artificial, manmade and "cookie cutter". And of course, they're right. Particularly with the bushes we force into being "trees". Quince, cotoneaster, privits, box woods, are woody shrubs left to their own.
Oh, there's all kinds of ways to style azaleas. The point I was making that they're naturally a bush. Not a tree.
Maybe the crux of this conversation about rules of design is less about,"how to" and more about "why". Some folks are keen to ascend to a mark, they compete a lot, they strive to a certain excellence, they work hard, when in their gardens they look about at objectives and creations, they get stuff done and are proud--this all is good, I suppose, but I don't really personally know, because I don't lean this way too far, it certainly is a most productive and systematic way to accomplish something.
I only know what I do. I have raised and nurtured trees, for pushing 40 years, and in my trees, I find myself caring about and noticing playful nuances, telling lines, and interesting iteration. Trees without some connection or story are a bore to me. I have bought trees a couple times and every time I regret it. The time I spend with my trees is reflective. It is a part of me, a joy, and a strife and the most ironic and herculean consumption of what little life I have left after chasing a subsistence. I have come to covet the small flourishes(like the Grouper tree), tragedies and comedies, the anomalous, and the stricken--somehow preconceived rules never are in the front of my mind. After a while, train wheels just fall off by themselves, I think.
I only know what I do. I have raised and nurtured trees, for pushing 40 years, and in my trees, I find myself caring about and noticing playful nuances, telling lines, and interesting iteration. Trees without some connection or story are a bore to me. I have bought trees a couple times and every time I regret it. The time I spend with my trees is reflective. It is a part of me, a joy, and a strife and the most ironic and herculean consumption of what little life I have left after chasing a subsistence. I have come to covet the small flourishes(like the Grouper tree), tragedies and comedies, the anomalous, and the stricken--somehow preconceived rules never are in the front of my mind. After a while, train wheels just fall off by themselves, I think.
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amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
I am very proud of myself for being able to follow along with @Adair M and it let's me know that I have learned the rules and a sense of style along the way. As he is describing the trees in this thread an image appears in my mind and changes with the description. I haven't read too many threads lately but I am enjoying this one.
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There is an article in Bonsai Today where they (Japanese) styled an Azalea with every branch sharply upright like a flame. Pine tree Azaleas are on the way out.
...................................Booooooooooooooo
.................................Yaaaaaaay (except for the exaggerated low branch)
...................................Booooooooooooooo .................................Yaaaaaaay (except for the exaggerated low branch)Each of us enjoys bonsai for different reasons. For that, there are no rules.
I was wiring my JWP yesterday, I guess I started wiring around 10:30 in the morning, and I kept at it until about 3:30. At one point, I noticed I was a bit hungry, and told myself, "I'll get some lunch when I finish this branch...". Next thing I knew it was 3:30!
I really enjoy wiring. I'm not fast. I try to do it using the correct size wire, avoid crossing wires, avoid having too many parallel wires on one spot, etc. I feel that the wiring should itself be a work of art. (some may insist it's "craft". Ok. Whatever.) But the wiring should be as unobtrusive as possible, yet effective.
I was "in the zone" of hyperfocus. Lost in the maze of branches, twigs, tufts of needles... applying wire, bending, shaping... time flew past.
I'm looking forward to the next time I can spend a few hours wiring the next couple of branches!
Different styles have different sets of rules. Why is it that people so often insist on applying the rules from one style to others?
Formal upright is a style. It follows curtain conventions. If you deviate from those when making a formal upright tree, the material should have given you a reason why you should do so.
Naturalistic is a style. It follows different conventions. If you deviate from those when making a naturalistic tree, the material should have given you a reason why you should do so.
It is true that styles can be grouped into categories, but that doesn't mean that simply because several styles share curtain rules that all styles have to use them. Japanese styles tend to have similar rule sets, but other style sets, for instance Chinese styles, don't necessarily follow them. That doesn't make those styles bad.
We are still figuring out what American bonsai styles, or European bonsai styles, etc. are going to look like. Naturalistic is one concept or ideal that could play into how some or all of those styles develop. That doesn't mean, however, that someone making a bonsai in a Japanese or Chinese style is somehow "doing it wrong."
We are all going to prefer certain styles over others. I love junipers with tons of twisting deadwood. I find formal uprights rather uninspiring. I know others who have the exact opposite view. They are different styles, and that is neither good nor bad, in spite of our preferences.
Styles are determined by what ideals are being striven for. A bonsai is good or bad to the extent that it exemplifies the ideals of its style.
Just my two cents...
Formal upright is a style. It follows curtain conventions. If you deviate from those when making a formal upright tree, the material should have given you a reason why you should do so.
Naturalistic is a style. It follows different conventions. If you deviate from those when making a naturalistic tree, the material should have given you a reason why you should do so.
It is true that styles can be grouped into categories, but that doesn't mean that simply because several styles share curtain rules that all styles have to use them. Japanese styles tend to have similar rule sets, but other style sets, for instance Chinese styles, don't necessarily follow them. That doesn't make those styles bad.
We are still figuring out what American bonsai styles, or European bonsai styles, etc. are going to look like. Naturalistic is one concept or ideal that could play into how some or all of those styles develop. That doesn't mean, however, that someone making a bonsai in a Japanese or Chinese style is somehow "doing it wrong."
We are all going to prefer certain styles over others. I love junipers with tons of twisting deadwood. I find formal uprights rather uninspiring. I know others who have the exact opposite view. They are different styles, and that is neither good nor bad, in spite of our preferences.
Styles are determined by what ideals are being striven for. A bonsai is good or bad to the extent that it exemplifies the ideals of its style.
Just my two cents...
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@ Mach5,
I really like your tree, the variation of colours in that picture make it really interesting... do you have a pic with it in full foliage?
I really like your tree, the variation of colours in that picture make it really interesting... do you have a pic with it in full foliage?
i think they are both nice.. but none of the 2 is great.
There is not a Japanese style, there are many Japanese styles (by which I mean styles whose rules/conventions were developed within the cultural context of Japan and reflect an aesthetic that is or was popular in that region).
As to the examples you gave, one might say they are bad bonsai if they do a poor job of exemplifying the ideals of their style. That is why some of the rules and conventions for those styles specify what species are appropriate to the style.
Which, I guess, is just another way of saying that, yes, some people's interpretation of a style can be "a little off," as you put it. I wasn't saying that there are no bad bonsai, only that a bonsai needs to be evaluated in the context of the ideals that its style is trying to achieve. For instance, one of the primary ideals of driftwood styles is how well they convey the struggle to survive. If you were to evaluate a formal upright by that criteria, however, you would erroneously conclude that many excellent specimens were "bad" because they showed no signs of struggle.
Comparing a "Formal Upright" vs "Naturalistic" is mixing apples and oranges. Two different classifications.
One way bonsai can be classified is by the shape of the trunk. These would include, Formal Upright, Informal Upright, Slant, Cascade, Semi-cascade, Clump, Twin Trunk, Forest, Clump, etc.
All those styles can be made in the Naturalistic mode, or in the Classical Japanese style. Chinese Bonsai have a different style, in fact their art isn't called "bonsai". Bonsai is a Japanese word. The Chinese call their trees Pejing.
Simply because two languages have different words for something doesn't mean they are different things. What we call a fork in the US they call a tenedor in Spain, but that doesn't mean it is a different thing. We call tenedors forks and they call forks tenedors. After all, if English and Spanish had all the same words then they wouldn't be different languages.
Likewise Japan has pejing, which are referred to as bonsai in Japanese, and China has bonsai, which are referred to as pejing in Chinese. Same thing, different words.
I was using bonsai as a loan-word, encompassing Bonsai, Pejing, Cay Canh, etc., because for whatever reason when the concept was imported into the English language, the Japanese word was chosen to represent the concept rather than inventing a whole new word for it.
If there is some other English word that I should use to encompass the practice of placing trees in shallow pots to control their growth for the purpose of displaying them, let me know, but I'm not aware of it.
Maloghurst
Chumono
Cliff burton.
Solange
Shohin
In fact their art isn't called "Pejing". That is not a word. The Chinese call their trees Penjing.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Much agreement with learning basic rules starting off and remembering. After using to evaluate trees/bushes in nurseries, gardens, yards and nature for years these became naturally part of my thinking difficult to dismiss. After introduction to wild collected conifer Yamadori trees all this turned upside down but could still not be forgotten nor completely dismissed from thinking/evaluating process. However the wildness and improbableness of contortions, branch locations and seemingly "unnatural" bends are what make these so attractive to some of us. Rules work well and "it depends" is part of most every tree in final design I suspect. The rules and knowing(or "feeling")of when to bend or break them are important to any future masterpiece tree and to all of our learning or "how to".
As spoken earlier wiring is an art in itself(with rules)and a thing some love and some not so much. Personally I find it not so much but still strive to do right. The new world of Yamadori finds me having inspiration some times on what to do with a particular branch and then do just that one at that time. Oftener than not these inspirations come when in bed and visions of trees dancing thru my head. Perhaps is personal muse working
. Regular nursery trees easier to wire at once as not so special and not end of world if done wrong first time
. Some of us hate rules and some more comfortable with but these are still important at end of day.
As spoken earlier wiring is an art in itself(with rules)and a thing some love and some not so much. Personally I find it not so much but still strive to do right. The new world of Yamadori finds me having inspiration some times on what to do with a particular branch and then do just that one at that time. Oftener than not these inspirations come when in bed and visions of trees dancing thru my head. Perhaps is personal muse working
. Regular nursery trees easier to wire at once as not so special and not end of world if done wrong first time. Some of us hate rules and some more comfortable with but these are still important at end of day.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I have absolutely nothing to add to this thread other then the fact that those highly refined "pine tree" styled azaleas really float my boat, and I'll take them over a "bush" styled azalea every day and twice on Sunday.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I forgot about Cliff. Rest his soul.
Tentakelaertje
Omono
Lemmy Kilmister
