Sun/shade requirements of Acers

[ConorDash]

@don b
Hey, these are what the new growth look like.
Can you see how they look a bit... weird? Some shows signs of the issue but most don't, however a lot are distorted..

http://imgur.com/a/DrN4V

 

[don b]

I am aware of this problem, some of my JMs get this. Mostly the very young ones. I'm not exactly sure why this happens, but my guess is that it's caused by either over hydration, or a high humity environment. The ones that get this in my collection are very young so they live in a shaded mini green house, and even with all the vents open, it gets pretty humid in there. Again, I'm not positive that this is the cause.

 

[don b]

Also, this leaf deformation doesn't seem to point to poor health of the tree in my experience. Some will have it, then some perfectly healthy leaves pop right above them.

 

[coh]

I've kind of lost track as this thread has gotten so long. Can you post in one place, a couple of photos of the tree when you received it (if you have any), before the leaves started acting strangely, and now? Did you ever state what cultivar it is, or maybe that is unknown?

If the leaves were uniformly green and healthy-looking when you got it, and have become faded/yellowish with time, I still think it's most likely a nutrient issue (iron chlorosis, lack of nitrogen, for example) but that could very well be secondary to a root problem - roots kept too wet (more likely) or too dry...or perhaps alternating too dry/wet. I've had maples develop messed up leaves for a while in response to not being watered enough. It could have been a combo of too much sun for the amount of water/fertilizer it was getting. I think you weren't fertilizing much at the beginning, right?

These kinds of problems can be very difficult to sort out. If the tree hasn't been repotted, the best course may be to not change too much this season, then repot into a fresh batch of bonsai soil in the spring and see what happens. Kind of like rebooting a computer.

Chris

 

[ConorDash]

I am aware of this problem, some of my JMs get this. Mostly the very young ones. I'm not exactly sure why this happens, but my guess is that it's caused by either over hydration, or a high humity environment. The ones that get this in my collection are very young so they live in a shaded mini green house, and even with all the vents open, it gets pretty humid in there. Again, I'm not positive that this is the cause.

Im not too worried about the deformation, just would be interesting to know what causes it. Our English weather is very up and down but it doesn't go to either extremes, of too windy, too rainy, too hot etc.
Over watering does seem to be a running trend in this topic, so I'm not discounting it but I am doing quite a bit in order to make sure I'm watering the right amount so I'm hard pressed to see where I'm going wrong. But none of this is urgent, I believe it's happy at the moment, just that big leaf problem but as I said, it may just need time for the fert to get through it.

 

[ConorDash]

I've kind of lost track as this thread has gotten so long. Can you post in one place, a couple of photos of the tree when you received it (if you have any), before the leaves started acting strangely, and now? Did you ever state what cultivar it is, or maybe that is unknown?

If the leaves were uniformly green and healthy-looking when you got it, and have become faded/yellowish with time, I still think it's most likely a nutrient issue (iron chlorosis, lack of nitrogen, for example) but that could very well be secondary to a root problem - roots kept too wet (more likely) or too dry...or perhaps alternating too dry/wet. I've had maples develop messed up leaves for a while in response to not being watered enough. It could have been a combo of too much sun for the amount of water/fertilizer it was getting. I think you weren't fertilizing much at the beginning, right?

These kinds of problems can be very difficult to sort out. If the tree hasn't been repotted, the best course may be to not change too much this season, then repot into a fresh batch of bonsai soil in the spring and see what happens. Kind of like rebooting a computer.

Chris

I will do that tomorrow Chris. I have some pics of before it was bought and probably a day or 2 after whilst at my house.
I did ask but Graham Potter never knew the cultivar, I'm hoping after some time and when I get a fresh spring of healthy leaves, i might be able to ID the cultivar.

The majority of this topic has pointed at exactly that, the nutrient deficiency, so 2 weeks ago, on Tuesday, I started it on a normal dose (dose recommended on the box) of miracle grow water soluble fert. It's 24-8-16 I believe, or 24-6-16, it's one of the common ratios. 20-20-20 was recommended but couldn't be found for me, so I went with that. It has iron as a trace element, I made sure.
I gave it it's last watering today and hope to give it the second dose of fert tomorrow, when it requires water (I also am trying to get it a little extra dry before fert, and leaving it a little extra dry afterwards, to make sure it absorbs as much as possible, before watering again and fert being lost, but I'm being very careful with this. It's something a member on here mentioned and I wanted to try it, it makes a lot of sense).

So I hope you, and others are correct in the nutrient deficiency, it is just a matter of time to allow the fert to do its job, I'm hoping within a month, this is enough time to allow it to do so and then HOPEFULLY I'll not see the issue on any new growth. Of course, all the old leaves will be left to drop off, no saving them now. And yes you are right, when I got it, I did not fertilise it for about 2-3 weeks, but still, it's difficult to imagine that short period causing such an issue?

My WORST FEAR is that it is a root problem, as I imagine most of you would also fear most of all, because it's unseen, difficult to diagnose and no way to know for sure except repotting, which isn't something people should do anytime they feel like it. It has been in its pot for 2 years, it's roots are certainly plentiful because a good number of them are above the soil and go in and out a bit madly. Graham recommended to repot in spring and I do intend to do that (I am hopefully going to try the colander technique, or maybe planting it on a plank for a thinner, widespread nebari, but undecided).

So in summary, I'll post tomorrow with those pics, I hope it is the nutrient deficiency, however over watering or under watering, is also a suspect (although I don't feel like I am doing that, my gut doesn't agree with that being the issue).

There's nothing pressing about this current issue, it's being treated, just kept the thread alive a bit with how it's coping, new pics, getting anyone's fresh opinions etc.
Thank you for your post @coh

 

[ConorDash]

This was the first image of it that was given to me by Graham, not great quality and a bit far so can't see the leaves much.



Taken a few days later, can see more.



A week after that..



A week or so after again.



And this was today.



This link is to a little album of 4-5 pics.
https://imgur.com/a/ke4f4

I think the new growth is good, but as to whether the issue is gone, I couldn't say.

The problem clearly started when I got bought it, because it was fine before that, and I don't mind being to blame for that as long as I can correct whatever mistake I made. However... I do find it also hard to think of how such an issue started so quickly after purchase? Surely a nutrient deficiency issue would take a good number of weeks or months to show such signs, or at least not 1 week?

I have given it the second dose of fert today, we are currently having a heat wave, temperature is about 25-30c which is the hottest we will see this year, so I've put it in the shade, because with all the new growth (which it badly needs!) it's delicate and might burn in this sun.

 

[LanceMac10]

Oh man, your going to give yourself an aneurism! There's nothing wrong here! Trees seem to get accustomed to their growing environment, and this one has been tasked to adjusting to your care. This tree was probably under Graham's care for a long time. And grown in certain conditions. For all we know, it could have been in a very protected area, maybe even in a greenhouse.
As far as watering? Well, nine times out of ten, most problems a tree has, when owned by an inexperienced grower, is a result of overwatering. I can't say if its your problem here, because I'm not there. It's hard to take advice from folks who don't grow in the same climate as you....just informed guess is the most you can hope for!

Experience comes with time spent observing and caring for your trees, not from books or random lunatics like me on the interwebby!
You don't just become a master of horticulture in a growing season, although I have heard that idea posited right here on B-Nut!!
Ferts don't work quite the way you seem to think they do. Heavy feeding this year is about next springs growth. The results in-season seem fairly minimal.

 

[ConorDash]

Oh man, your going to give yourself an aneurism! There's nothing wrong here! Trees seem to get accustomed to their growing environment, and this one has been tasked to adjusting to your care. This tree was probably under Graham's care for a long time. And grown in certain conditions. For all we know, it could have been in a very protected area, maybe even in a greenhouse.
As far as watering? Well, nine times out of ten, most problems a tree has, when owned by an inexperienced grower, is a result of overwatering. I can't say if its your problem here, because I'm not there. It's hard to take advice from folks who don't grow in the same climate as you....just informed guess is the most you can hope for!

Experience comes with time spent observing and caring for your trees, not from books or random lunatics like me on the interwebby!
You don't just become a master of horticulture in a growing season, although I have heard that idea posited right here on B-Nut!!
Ferts don't work quite the way you seem to think they do. Heavy feeding this year is about next springs growth. The results in-season seem fairly minimal.

Lol it's ok, I'm honestly not that stressed. I worry but that's just the person I am.
I usually type a lot and it makes me look more concerned than I am. I just like to go in detail and depth about something I'm motivated with.
Coh asked for more of an update, that's only reason I typed those last 2 big posts, if he hasn't, I would have just let more time go. But if he would like to give his opinion more, I'm not going to argue. All good knowledge .

Thanks though, I will monitor watering closer, maybe leave it an extra few hours after I would usually water.

 

[LanceMac10]

Totally consumed with acquiring horticultural skill is not a bad thing to be!!
But it's like kissing for the first time....no idea, just dive in and it feels great!! But honestly, it gets better, once you figure out how to do it better!! Cuz' face it, if you had video of your first kiss you would probably have a good laugh!!! And luckily, trees are 10 times more forgiving, literally and figuratively!

 

[ConorDash]

Totally consumed with acquiring horticultural skill is not a bad thing to be!!
But it's like kissing for the first time....no idea, just dive in and it feels great!! But honestly, it gets better, once you figure out how to do it better!! Cuz' face it, if you had video of your first kiss you would probably have a good laugh!!! And luckily, trees are 10 times more forgiving, literally and figuratively!

Lol! That's very funny.

 

[coh]

Conor, don't be so sure that it started when you got it. Something could have happened to the tree before that (too wet, too much fertilizer, who knows, even pro's occasionally have issues like this). On the first 2 pics, there appear to be some leaves that looked a bit yellowish, so it may have been that no matter what you did, this would have happened.

I do still think it's most likely a watering/exposure issue as the root cause (pun not intended ) perhaps compounded by lack of fertilization. It may seem unlikely, but if this tree is growing in a standard primarily open/inorganic mix, and is in a quick growth phase, a couple of missed fertilizations can cause leaf problems to quickly occur...as the soil really doesn't hold nutrients very well.

So, my advice still stands...unless there is a serious downturn and you think you are going to lose the tree, just stay the course...water well but not too much, fertilize regularly, and plan a repot next spring.

BTW, a healthy maple should be able to stand a decent amount of sun and 30 C temps (86 F) without problems.

Good luck,

Chris

P.S. Get some more trees!

 

[don b]

These two images may be cause for concern. See the discoloration of the base/nebari? This is fine for a few hours following watering, but if that dark or black discoloration persists to the next day you may have a root problem.

 

[petegreg]

This picture from imgur... isn't it a mud?

 

[ConorDash]

View attachment 111219 View attachment 111218

These two images may be cause for concern. See the discoloration of the base/nebari? This is fine for a few hours following watering, but if that dark or black discoloration persists to the next day you may have a root problem.

It had just been watered, less than 10 mins before the pic but I'll make sure to check.
I did just go check, it's not been in the sun all day, so it's still most moist and that nebari is still the same black. I'll check it tomorrow once it's dried out a bit.
Thank you for pointing that out

This picture from imgur... isn't it a mud?
View attachment 111234

Yes it is a bit, it was just watered quite thoroughly.

 

[ConorDash]

Conor, don't be so sure that it started when you got it. Something could have happened to the tree before that (too wet, too much fertilizer, who knows, even pro's occasionally have issues like this). On the first 2 pics, there appear to be some leaves that looked a bit yellowish, so it may have been that no matter what you did, this would have happened.

I do still think it's most likely a watering/exposure issue as the root cause (pun not intended ) perhaps compounded by lack of fertilization. It may seem unlikely, but if this tree is growing in a standard primarily open/inorganic mix, and is in a quick growth phase, a couple of missed fertilizations can cause leaf problems to quickly occur...as the soil really doesn't hold nutrients very well.

So, my advice still stands...unless there is a serious downturn and you think you are going to lose the tree, just stay the course...water well but not too much, fertilize regularly, and plan a repot next spring.

BTW, a healthy maple should be able to stand a decent amount of sun and 30 C temps (86 F) without problems.

Good luck,

Chris

P.S. Get some more trees!

Thank you for the post. I've always been told varying things about the sun requirements of the Maple, some say partial shade and others full sun always (and that full sun is in a lot more intense sun than I experience). But due to the leave issue and I do really want these new fresh leaves to come through well, I decided to shade it because they are new leaves. It may be over thinking it or being too safe but some have said partial so I'll do that for now .

I will just give it time, let these leaves drop. What did you think of the nebari pic in the link, if you saw it? It's very dark. As don b, pointed out. It had just been watered, but still. The idea of a root issue has been thrown around quite a bit in this topic. I will check it tomorrow morning and see if it's dark.

This picture was taken 3 weeks ago. @don b



It still looks the same dark... Although to be fair, it may have just been watered in that pic too, the soil does look moist. When it's dry, I'll see tomorrow.

Edit:

This was a week ago. It's night time, so the soil will be drier and it looks it dry from what I can see in the pic. The same black around the nebari.

 

[petegreg]

No Conor...mud - circled in yellow looks like the remainings of garden soil if it was field grown..., maybe only looks.

 

[ConorDash]

No Conor...mud - circled in yellow looks like the remainings of garden soil if it was field grown..., maybe only looks.

Oh, well no it's not something like that. It was just because the soil was well watered, some of the smaller bits had clumped together to form some mud.