Summer repotting scots pines?

[Giga]

I would NEVER repot a mugo pine or Scots pine in June. This means death in Central Europe most probably. I have had more than one thousand mugo and Scots pines. They were all collected. If you as my opinion: only repot from beginning of April t o beginning of May and from end of August to middle of September in areas like Pennsylvania, new England Washington, Colorado etc. In warmer areas a couple weeks earlier and in colder areas a couple weeks later. The mugos shown will have to be potted into good containers soon. I would rather hack a hand off than do that in early summer.

I am very jealous of your tree's! Some day I'll find some yamadori on this lvl as my wallet can't afford this lvl.

 

[Walter Pall]

In Norway, Sweden and Finland Scots pines grow like weeds. They found that a very good time to collect and repot them is NOW until mid.August. This is due to their climate up north where it gets cole very quickly more and more while the days are shiringking visibly already. While Michigan is by far not that up north (they are at the sourth bof Hudson Bay!) it could be the answer to this puzzle.

 

[Vance Wood]

I am very jealous of your tree's! Some day I'll find some yamadori on this lvl as my wallet can't afford this lvl.

What's not to like the guy is a true artist and his trees are beyond World class, they verge of Godly in quality. He may be right about the repotting but we shall see.

 

[coh]

...In warmer areas a couple weeks earlier and in colder areas a couple weeks later...

Do you have that backward? I would think you'd want to repot a couple of weeks earlier in the colder areas, to give the trees more time to root before winter.

 

[Vance Wood]

Do you have that backward? I would think you'd want to repot a couple of weeks earlier in the colder areas, to give the trees more time to root before winter.

Here is what I know, and I have related these stories before: Here in Michigan, until very recently, no one in Michigan was growing Mugos as bonsai. They were and are a durable landscape tree but bonsai was unseen except by me. Most every body I had talked to said they didn't like to have their roots messed with and everybody tried to do them in the early spring. I was doing demonstrations with them that included everything you could think of; wiring, heavy pruning, triming and root work all on the same day in the middle of the summer, usually after Father's day. All of the trees I treated in this way prospered and kept growing without skipping a beat.

Here once more is my Zombi Mugo Pine. Obtained in 1985 there about and repotted in the spring. The tree almost died. It sat and sulked on my bench for two full seasons. I, at one point felt the tree was dead. At the beginning of the third season is started to grow.

This is the tree in around 2000 and the tree seems to be doing fine, This tree was repotted in the summer.

The same tree in 2009 or there about. Summer repot. About 2010 and the first major restyle.

 

[klosi]

The climate is for sure one reason that repotting may work in different times of year. Probably the major one.
The other reason is also the age of the tree I think. Mugos shown by Walter are much, much, much older then trees Vance is working on (or am I mistaken?). Since Vance sadly can't get his hands on yamadori, he make nursery stock into fine bonsai. Walter on the other hand has hundred + years old mugos on his hands. Older trees (specifically yamadori) tolerate repoting and other insults much harder then younger. Hence the repotting in summer might work better for younger mugos, but not for older.
Or this is totaly wrong, I'm just giving my insight
Anyway, I've read many posts about repoting mugos and scots in summer, also from people in UK and other central Europe countries, and there were some in favor of summer repotting.
This might just be the new soilliketabu

 

[Vance Wood]

The climate is for sure one reason that repotting may work in different times of year. Probably the major one.
The other reason is also the age of the tree I think. Mugos shown by Walter are much, much, much older then trees Vance is working on (or am I mistaken?). Since Vance sadly can't get his hands on yamadori, he make nursery stock into fine bonsai. Walter on the other hand has hundred + years old mugos on his hands. Older trees (specifically yamadori) tolerate repoting and other insults much harder then younger. Hence the repotting in summer might work better for younger mugos, but not for older.
Or this is totaly wrong, I'm just giving my insight
Anyway, I've read many posts about repoting mugos and scots in summer, also from people in UK and other central Europe countries, and there were some in favor of summer repotting.
This might just be the new soilliketabu

Thank You for considering all sides of the issue.

 

[DhD47]

I just repotted a mugo based on Vance recommending it. The only thought I had about it as I was doing was the difference AG Zones Vance and I live. I'm in a much warmer area but I figured that wasn't going to be a problem. I hope not because the nursery tree I got was a really nice looking tree to bonsai. I plan to take my time and work the tree over years. I'll try to post a photo as soon as I get one.
D

 

[Walter Pall]

Do you have that backward? I would think you'd want to repot a couple of weeks earlier in the colder areas, to give the trees more time to root before winter.

I speak about the spring period. In late summer it is the ither way round as you noticed.

 

[coh]

I speak about the spring period. In late summer it is the ither way round as you noticed.

Got it, thanks.

 

[michaelj]

Well so far we know Fathers day is the 3rd Sunday in June in the Netherlands.
You could probably Google the rest.

In a bunch of those icy countries around the Netherlands, it's in November.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father's_Day#Dates_around_the_world

This is a good illustration of why one should always note an advice giver's location when getting advice in an online forum.

When someone posts about something they do on a particular calendar date or event, I make note of their location, lest I take advice from someone in South Africa and do something six months too late. Or six months too early. I'd apply the same rule to recommendations about Father's Day or Mother's Day or election day or anything else like that.

Actually, that's a good idea for almost anything. Even referencing solstice or equinox. Someone in Canada might be able to repot something in June that would mean a quick death for one of my trees in 95 degree Southern California heat in June. If they are saying it's perfectly okay to repot species X after the summer solstice, and I see that they posted from a place near the Arctic Circle, I'm going to want to hear the opinions of people closer to my latitude and climate type.

 

[Dalmat]

In a bunch of those icy countries around the Netherlands, it's in November.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father's_Day#Dates_around_the_world

This is a good illustration of why one should always note an advice giver's location when getting advice in an online forum.

When someone posts about something they do on a particular calendar date or event, I make note of their location, lest I take advice from someone in South Africa and do something six months too late. Or six months too early. I'd apply the same rule to recommendations about Father's Day or Mother's Day or election day or anything else like that.

Actually, that's a good idea for almost anything. Even referencing solstice or equinox. Someone in Canada might be able to repot something in June that would mean a quick death for one of my trees in 95 degree Southern California heat in June. If they are saying it's perfectly okay to repot species X after the summer solstice, and I see that they posted from a place near the Arctic Circle, I'm going to want to hear the opinions of people closer to my latitude and climate type.

I'm in 9b, did it in February, May, Jun and July this year. I really wanted an answer to this issue.

 

[DhD47]

All good points about noting where a post is from. An it is a good idea to mention to someone if you are answering to a question if you know their AG Zone. I have noticed Vance is good about pointing this out when he replies to me.
Dave

 

[DhD47]

I just repotted a mugo based on Vance recommending it. The only thought I had about it as I was doing was the difference AG Zones Vance and I live. I'm in a much warmer area but I figured that wasn't going to be a problem. I hope not because the nursery tree I got was a really nice looking tree to bonsai. I plan to take my time and work the tree over years. I'll try to post a photo as soon as I get one.
D

Here are some photos of the tree I worked on. You can see that some of the tree has died lower and I had a lot of needles inside I cleaned out. I cut small pie slices and a small section off the bottom. I would guess I cut less than a third off the bottom. You see the roots on the surface from cleaning off all the soil on top. I didn't remove much of the soil mix it had as I didn't want to disrupt more than the cuttings.

 

[leatherback]

What kind of Pine are you talking about?

I was actually not thinking Mugo, but Scots Pine

You live close enough to Walter Pall in his environment and maybe you should do it his way. However I am still curious why you, and a couple of others from Europe, would query me as to how I do Mugos when you are close enough to those who are considered the best in the World? That's fine I have always shared my information freely, and I suppose I could be setting myself up for a World wide trip to the stocks; it's too late to turn back now.

I personally believe someone learns most by listening to a wide range of people who know what they are doing, and hearing their individual opinion & reasons behind the chosen course of action. Although Walter also lives in Europe, and even also in Germany, he is a full day of driving (700+ KM (~450 miles)) south from me. A VERY different climate there. Unfortunately he lives too far to go visit there often. I have only been to his garden once, some 3 years ago.

if what you do works for you and you have been doing it for years then don't change what you are doing. The old proverb: If it ain't broke don't fix it applies here.

That is my problem; I seem to have a the blck thumb of death for pines. I can grow all species without too much effort, but pines live for 2, 3 years and then pass away. Must be something in the way I treat them, but I am not sure what it is.

As far as the one insult per year rule? I have, in my experience, found that I can do as I have described in my writings; that in the summer you can do all sorts of things at the same time.

OK thx, will keep this in mind, and try what happens if I only do wiring & repotting in summer.

 

[Vance Wood]

Contrary to what some may think I really do care about your success with this tree. Any thing I can do to help I am available.

 

[jeanluc83]

I managed to get my scots pine repotted. As it worked out I split the difference between Walter and Vance in terms of timing. I'm somewhere between Walter's and Vance's climate, a little ahead of Vance but behind Walter. I repotted a couple of mugos last summer with good success so I'm confident that my timing is sound.

I was a little disappointed at the state of the roots. The tree was planted in a rootmaker pot so I was hoping for more roots than it had. As far as I could tell the substrate was a combo of grit, turface and something organic. It was compact and did not come away from the roots easily. I removed as few roots as I could but had to remove a large tap root.

If I was smart I would have put it into a colander for couple of years to develop a better root system. At the very least I could have put it back in the rootmaker pot but for better or worse I put it into a training pot. Time will tell if this was a mistake or not.

I will need to completely get rid of the old substrate eventually. Is it safe to do a half bare root next year than the other half the following year or should I wait longer between repots?

I'll try to get a picture tonight.

 

[Vance Wood]

If you are planning to do a total soil replacement do it in stages. You have already done the bottom half, now you have to work the rest of the soil ball. Give you tree at least three years to recover from what you have already done to it. In three years remove the tree from the pot and remove one third of the soil by volume by picking two areas on opposite sides of the trunk and remove the soil from those areas. Virtually like making a couple of pie shaped wedges into what's left of the soil mass. Let the tree recover and repeat the process three years latter. Repeat ant remove the last of the old soil in this last repot. Hopefully you have managed to replace all the soil and rebuilt the root structure.

 

[jeanluc83]

Here is a a picture of it potted up. I'll. Hopefully get some better pictures when I get a chance to get it wired.

 

[jeanluc83]

I got some wire on the tree this morning. The apex needs some work still but the tree has the start of some backbudding so I decided to leave it be for now.

I decided to go ahead and remove the back scratcher branch. There was just no way to incorporate it into the final design.

It will be interesting to see how the tree progresses next year.