Some facts about bonsai soil

[A Random User]

Smoke,
A question regarding your new feeding regimen using the injection/suction device you mentioned in another thread.

If you are feeding daily by watering with the diluted solution, do you still need clay/akadama/bark/organics to "hold onto" the nutrients? Or put another way, does CEC of the substrate no longer matter with your method of fertilizing?

Thanks

Frank

Oh... now you went and did it !!!
You are now going to get a lecture of how you didn't read page one hundred
and thirteen, chapter 9 of Smoke's dissertation...

 

[dkraft81]

I don't have personal experience with a tree in the same soil for 20 years, but I have discussed this with someone who does. A friend of mine, Harold Sasaki, has some very nice, very old white pines he received from Japan. (I'm fairly certain he said 20 years ago, though it may have only been 15... only?) He had not Repotted these trees in the 20 years since they were imported. (He told us that he never believed akadama was worth the price... until he repotted his pines last year. He was certain they would be severely root bound. But they weren't! Fine roots were growing very happily through completely broken down/caked akadama, and not ringing the pot. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the soil mix was pumice and akadama.

(Dusty, if you could check my facts next time you talk with Harold I'd appreciate it. -- If you read this...lol)

I will ask him when I go down next. I do know last week when I was there he discovered one of his black pines was suffering from root rot. It was a pine he has had for about 20 years he said. He told me it was repotted last year. He ended up repotting it into 100% turface while I was there. There was also a couple of white pines that might be suffering the same fate as the black pine.

 

[clic8991]

Soil provides absolutely nothing to the plants ability to grow and thrive. Those requirements are met by water, nutrients, and air.

Though modern growing methods and substrates may overwhelm their influence, doesn't soil provide a more complete medium for beneficial symbionts and microbes? Does anyone know of the extent of the effect symbionts have in different substrates, or how completely people understand the influence of different communities of symbionts on overall plant health?

 

[Poink88]

Though modern growing methods and substrates may overwhelm their influence, doesn't soil provide a more complete medium for beneficial symbionts and microbes? Does anyone know of the extent of the effect symbionts have in different substrates, or how completely people understand the influence of different communities of symbionts on overall plant health?

I am one of those who believe that we do not know as much as we thought we do. Some profess they know everything the plant needs...I do not believe so. But I am just a dumb newbie...

 

[davetree]

Yes, but do they love "aeroponics"...

Aeroponics has been around for a long time. And you don't need any humates or anything else except basic fertilizer to grow perfect plants.

 

[KennedyMarx]

Total side note... it was mentioned before, if one is in the very early stages
Of development when they are trying to thicken a trunk , or grow it out, what
Would you guys use ??? Obviously, if you were not growing in ground...

Reason why I ask, is that there are alot of folks who are always suggesting that
People put beginner trees in a bonsai soil mix, and grow it out. For me this is
Actually counter productive... A bonsai soil mix I have found really only works
When one is moving to the next step. By this I mean starting to work on branches,
And ramification... more fine feeder roots equals more fine branching. They
Kinda go hand in hand...

Often we tell folks who are new to bonsai that come here to get their Charlie Brown
Tree out of the nursery mix that it is in and into a bonsai soil mix, and grow it
Out...My personal opinion, would be that as long as it is fast draining, but obviously
Not root bound, that they would be better off leaving it in the nursery soil...
I have found that my beginner trees put on alot more pounds in a nursery soil.

Reason why I put this argument out for debate, is that alot of newbies are now
Going to run out and buy expensive soil, to try and accomplish what I personally
Would say doesn't seem to accomplish.

Then there is the discussion of putting in colanders or anderson flats to grow a
Tree out, which here again seems to me to be counterproductive...once again,
If one has a peice of material that is where they want it as far as trunk size and is
Now wanting to begin developing, then fine the extra air will help develop finer roots.
But, will not encourage roots to grow long and add weight to the trunk... at least from
My personal observations.This however is off the path, but I feel is somewhat
Relevant when discussing the reasoning behind using such soils in bonsai.

One more thing, wanted to add that since sand had been brought up, alot of folks
Find a straight sand mix to be very beneficial in helping establish cuttings to root.
Obviously, once this has been established, they are then moved on to a different
Type of soil.

For me... I personally feel that to much time is often spent discussing what is a best
Soil, and not enough time is spent explaining why such a soil is used, and for what
Purposes. What is the goal that is trying to be achieved by using such
A soil, and when and where it should be used. This is usually very vague,
And a hard thing to come to terms with when one is new and just starting out.

I was under the impression that the roots mimicking the top foliage was a myth like watering burning leaves in midday. Tap roots don't take up nutrients like fine feeder roots. They extend in search of water. It seems to me that extending thick roots wouldn't really create more top growth, but the fine feeder root mass would from all the nutrient uptake. Which makes me think of the reason bonsai soil is advised for developing trees. The more water, air, and nutrients the roots have access to the more healthy strong growth they will exhibit. In turn, it would seem to me that a vigorously fertilized and watered plant in a pond basket filled with bonsai soil would have more strong growth than one in nursery dirt. This isn't from experience, nor is it scientific, but it seems logical to me. I could be wrong.

 

[A Random User]

I was under the impression that the roots mimicking the top foliage was a myth like watering burning leaves in midday. Tap roots don't take up nutrients like fine feeder roots. They extend in search of water. It seems to me that extending thick roots wouldn't really create more top growth, but the fine feeder root mass would from all the nutrient uptake. Which makes me think of the reason bonsai soil is advised for developing trees. The more water, air, and nutrients the roots have access to the more healthy strong growth they will exhibit. In turn, it would seem to me that a vigorously fertilized and watered plant in a pond basket filled with bonsai soil would have more strong growth than one in nursery dirt. This isn't from experience, nor is it scientific, but it seems logical to me. I could be wrong.

I am not an expert in this field....
As previously mentioned, so I will try and explain in a somewhat
Logical manner... and I am sure somewhere I might get this wrong, and
Someone will jump all over me, but here goes...

Two things, the first being that obviously constant cutting is going to
Reduce size, branches or roots, and will continue to divert energy
making more roots, more branches, so this is going to play a major factor.
This is why we call this process growing out, For the tree is being allowed to run free...
The larger the roots grow the larger the trunk grows.

Second which address the soil question, Is that the more air within the soil the tree
Will produce more roots. The trees energy is now being drawn in from multiple
Locations, so the size of the roots will take longer to increase. The more roots, the more
Branches and foliage the tree will now be able to substain. Roots on a tree often are
Compartmentalize, where a specific root will help to feed a specific portion of the tree.
So, the new branches and foliage will draw energy from the new roots that has been created.

In the early days of a tree, the few roots that it has are compartmentalized to the top branch, to help it grow tall.
With the goal of helping push the tree higher and higher in order for the tree to now obtain more sun. So that
It may then begin to branch out. The make-up of a nursery soil usually will hold more moisture, which
As said before does not encourage new roots, but instead helps to feed the roots that have been
Assigned to the leader of the tree, to make it grow taller. The leader which is usually directed above
The trunk, will be quicker and a more direct path to pull nutrients up from
The soil, greatly increasing the trunks size in a short amount of time.

Once the desired size is obtained, and one now wants to begin developing the
Material into a bonsai, I would then suggest it be removed from the nursery soil and
Planted in a more traditional bonsai soil, which is better suited for the next step...
Development of more roots, more branches, more foliage.

I hope some of this makes some sense...
I know I am always told by folks here I don't know what I am talking
About... and it may be all BS... but, it seems logical, and seems to work !!!

 

[A Random User]

This is what I am talking about...
We spend an awful lot of time arguing on crap that most,
Myself included... haven't really totally come to terms with !!!
I think it would be much more useful to those here to try and
Explain why something works the way it does, and how something
Could be benificial, or not... in a given situation, then telling people
What to do, because they had heard it was what to do.
Or better yet... insulting folks, merely for a lack of understanding.

 

[Paradox]

Soil Wars 2014

 

[A Random User]

Soil Wars 2014

People seem to be vary passionate about their soils !!!
Some for very good reasons and some perhaps for not so good reasons...
I think there are quite a few factors that are reallly going to
Play a role...
The first being what is trying to be achieved.
Next, location and weather conditions...
And most importantly, since most of us have day jobs,
The amount of attention one can give to your bonsai...

There is no doubt that often we are walking a very fine
Line with the watering of our trees, the faster a soil drains
And allows more air to reach the roots, the more refinement
A tree is going to achieve... but, if one lives in a desert, or in windy
Conditions, or anything else that may further speed up the drying
Time, much more attention will be needed to properly tend to
Your trees... and if you can't provide it, then you will need to make
A compromise somewhere... a tree with fewer branches is far
Better than one that is dead.

My own personal feelings are like eating food... how do you know
If you like it if you don't try it.

 

[nathanbs]

Soil Wars 2014

like with any war, there a few that truly even know why they are arguing, the rest are just bandwagoning and fighting just to fight.

 

[Adair M]

I have not read this entire thread...

But I have an interesting picture to share:

This tree was half bare rooted a year ago. It had been in the typical commercial bonsai mix with some pumice, pine bark and sand. Half of the rootball was washed out and replaced with Boon Mix.

Here are the results, a year later.

 

[A Random User]

I have not read this entire thread...

But I have an interesting picture to share:

This tree was half bare rooted a year ago. It had been in the typical commercial bonsai mix with some pumice, pine bark and sand. Half of the rootball was washed out and replaced with Boon Mix.

Here are the results, a year later.

I think this just made Nathan's statement that much more relevant.

 

[nathanbs]

I have not read this entire thread...

But I have an interesting picture to share:

This tree was half bare rooted a year ago. It had been in the typical commercial bonsai mix with some pumice, pine bark and sand. Half of the rootball was washed out and replaced with Boon Mix.

Here are the results, a year later.

I for one am a fan of Boons mix but I only see that exactly half of the root ball was scraped prior to this photo. The debris is on the table and the rake is in hand. What are we looking at here and what point does it make? Sorry but just being a stickler

 

[KennedyMarx]

I have not read this entire thread...

But I have an interesting picture to share:

This tree was half bare rooted a year ago. It had been in the typical commercial bonsai mix with some pumice, pine bark and sand. Half of the rootball was washed out and replaced with Boon Mix.

Here are the results, a year later.

So... Which half is the Boon mix and which is the other?

 

[Adair M]

Yes, I just pulled the tree out of the Anderson flat. And yes, I was just about to start scraping the bottom of the rootball when I noticed the stark difference between the two halves.

Now, you tell me...

Which half is the good half, and which is the bad?

 

[nathanbs]

Yes, I just pulled the tree out of the Anderson flat. And yes, I was just about to start scraping the bottom of the rootball when I noticed the stark difference between the two halves.

Now, you tell me...

Which half is the good half, and which is the bad?

whats the debris on the table and in the rake? It looks like half has already been scraped. If I am wrong I apologize.

 

[Adair M]

I may have pulled one or two pulls across the roots. That's when I really noticed the stark difference. And I pointed it out to Boon, who thought it was worthy of a photo. He posted it on his Facebook page.

But, I went much much farther into the roots when I did the rootwork. I probably reduced the depth of the rootball by half. At least.

Now, let's have a vote: Which half has the good roots?

 

[nathanbs]

I may have pulled one or two pulls across the roots. That's when I really noticed the stark difference. And I pointed it out to Boon, who thought it was worthy of a photo. He posted it on his Facebook page.

But, I went much much farther into the roots when I did the rootwork. I probably reduced the depth of the rootball by half. At least.

Now, let's have a vote: Which half has the good roots?

bottom half looks healthy with micorrhizae(sp?) cant really see the roots

 

[coh]

So if you have a tree in which half the soil is "junk" and the other half has been replaced with "Boon mix", how are you watering? Because that would affect the root growth in this kind of situation. I presume the side with "Boon mix" would drain/dry faster so if you're watering when that side needs it, you'd probably be over-watering the other side...which would pretty much make the comparison invalid in my opinion.

Show me two trees...one potted completely in "Boon mix", the other in standard nursery mix for the same time period (and watered appropriately). How do those root systems compare?

Chris