Some facts about bonsai soil

[Vance Wood]

Smoke, I am curious how pumice and lava are not in essence the same thing ???

The mixture that I use does have an organic component to it, which is pine bark.
I use it for one reason and one reason only. To allow me to go longer spans between
watering. That's it.

If I had the ability to be able to water more often, as well as the additional cost of
doing so, then I would change to a mix completely free of organic, and would replace
lost nutrients trough a liquid fertilizer. No Poo Balls !!! The racoons around here already
think they own the place.

Volcanic elements can be totally different from each other if you think about it. Obsidian is totally different from lava rock as it is from Pumice. All are volcanic but that just defines the source not the nature of the beast. Good question though.

 

[Vance Wood]

I do not use Akadama because I have no (affordable) access to it. I am not in any way questioning the effectivity of it.

My only qualms are when someone tells me I cannot grow plants in my mix...which clearly works for me. Whether it is too fine, junk components, too much organic, etc. is immaterial to me. I know most that was mentioned here but I am not that intelligent to know the best for my plant (and others). All I know is that my plants are thriving on what I am growing them into. To me that matters the most.

I also do not have any tree close to being a bonsai so their needs are different. I am encouraging them to grow...FAST, not maintaining them.

In time, hopefully before my trees become real bonsai, I hope to settle and use the best available soil component. Honestly, I won't be surprised if it includes akadama (even expect it).

I never questioned the effectiveness of the stuff except for reports received from areas with my kind of winters turns it into mucus.. What I was questioning was the absolutism voiced in adherence to the product and the claim you cannot produce a decent bonsai without it.

 

[Vance Wood]

I thought about that, but then I realized the freezer experiment only works for replicating the winter conditions of someplace like Virginia. A freezer stays at the same temperature level, and freezes at the same rate every time. You'd have to make the freezer go 15-30 degrees colder and factor in a sort of wind chill to replicate the temps I get and the rate they are achieved.

You would also need to completely saturate with water before freezing because, sometimes that's the way things happen in nature; especially around here. Then you would have to thaw it out and freeze it again dry. Then thaw it out and repeat and see what happens. Michigan has some of the most variable winters you could hope to encounter. Our winters here will destroy something that cannot maintain it's structure over several years of use.

 

[Vance Wood]

bottom line is if you have more than 200 by a significant amount then something is happening. My point of using 400 is that I personally would be turned away from akadama if my particles even went from 1/8" to 1/16" in one season, game over.

Once again an additional thought. I think sometimes week chase dreams and dig at the bases of rainbows. We would all like to say we have the ideal soil mix and we go out of our ways to make our own version of the same. The truth is trees are capable of growing in some really god-awfull soil and under some horrible conditions. A great soil will help but just because it is not as good as mine, (the best there is of course) that does not mean your tree is going to die. As long as you are able to comprehend the concepts of watering, too much, too little, and fertilizer, you should be able to grow you trees in dog poop. Most species of trees are unbelievably adaptable and will endure and flourish in pure junk for a soil.

 

[A Random User]

Im curious who actually says this specifically? Referring to putting young trees in a akadama mix or dont do it at all?

I agree its very important to differentiate between a seeding, a young nursery tree, a mature nursery tree, a mature nursery tree that's pot bound, a freshly collected tree, a collected tree from 3 years ago, a developed piece of bonsai material that you are already working on branch refinement, on and on. Each one of these scenarios could potentially have a severely or slightly different soil recommendation based on needs, wants, etc. Dont forget costs.

I did not say that people suggest putting young trees in akadama specifically...
I merely stated that if one reads any newbie post regarding their tree that very
Often the first thing that is stated is that they should repot it in a bonsai soil,
And let it grow out to thicken the trunk.

My experience has been that with most of the younger material I have grown
Out in a pot, that they have put on much more growth in a shorter time
Being in nursery soil, however it must be freely draining.

 

[Vance Wood]

I did not say that people suggest putting young trees in akadama specifically...
I merely stated that if one reads any newbie post regarding their tree that very
Often the first thing that is stated is that they should repot it in a bonsai soil,
And let it grow out to thicken the trunk.

My experience has been that with most of the younger material I have grown
Out in a pot, that they have put on much more growth in a shorter time
Being in nursery soil, however it must be freely draining.

Again it always come back to that age old question: How do you define a bonsai soil. Actually I believe what they really mean, at least those who are not simply parroting what they have heard, is precisely what you just described. In my experience; a soil mix that is a lot of Pine Bark Mulch is far better at promoting the growth of young trees than a super bonsai mix that has more grit than a platoon of Navy Seals. Understanding that I grow a lot of young nursery plants for resale I can affirm that the fast growth needs a lot of organic substrate. You are correct they do need to be free draining. So in essence nursery soil is OK as long as the trees in it drain well. If they do not, then you have to make your own nursery soil as described above.

 

[Smoke]

Again it always come back to that age old question: How do you define a bonsai soil. Actually I believe what they really mean, at least those who are not simply parroting what they have heard, is precisely what you just described. In my experience; a soil mix that is a lot of Pine Bark Mulch is far better at promoting the growth of young trees than a super bonsai mix that has more grit than a platoon of Navy Seals. Understanding that I grow a lot of young nursery plants for resale I can affirm that the fast growth needs a lot of organic substrate. You are correct they do need to be free draining. So in essence nursery soil is OK as long as the trees in it drain well. If they do not, then you have to make your own nursery soil as described above.

Seems the debate always revolves around organics. What if you could have a soil mix that didn't need actual organics in it to act like a soil with organics in it?

We all know that optimum growth is achieved by elevating the CEC of the soil we grow potted plants in. Why not just elevate the soil mix you use with additions of humic acid to keep the static charge fresh. Like the addition of lime to sulpher to achieve a dormant spray, we all know that the calcium is very hard to keep in solution. It falls out very quickly. The preciptate forms large chunks of calcium carbonate very quickly. Chelation helps in keeping the calcium in solution but not for very long. The same thing happens with CEC. It falls away very quickly in a pot of soil with a plant growing in it. That is why I am very happy with dosing and additions daily. I have already seen a change in thirty days.

Please keep in mind that my reason for posting this is to show that it has nothing to do with the soil per se. It has to do with keeping the CEC high. That can be achieved very easily with clay. The only clay I know of for now with a naturaly high CEC is turface and akadama. For me, turface is too small. Any clay soil with a slightly acid Ph would be a very good alternative to akadama as long as it reasonably held its shape while wet and didn't just melt.

Something to ponder which may shed some light on the subject....
Think about cash crop farmers. You know that grow marijuana so high and so perfect in their basement with nothing but fifty ten gallon aquariums and 20 pounds of inert rock wool. For some reason the fertilizer that they applied to the water to run over the substrate to water the plants some how did not exactly produce the results that they needed to turn a buck quickly. Then some nerd botony professor that grows this stuff on the side remembers back in collage days about farmers in the San Joaquin valley adding huge amounts of humates to heavy clay soil to render it useful again.

The guy adds it to his sump and voila, the rockwool mysteriously starts to retain the nutrients in the rockwool and the plants can now utilize the fertilizer because as it flows thru, it clings to the wool due to a static charge. I didn't just make this shit up, it works, and if you neglect to try it so be it. I work my plants hard, I mean hard and I think I have shown ample documentation to bear that out. I could not do that growing plants in turface and bark alone. If you don't try it you can have absolutely no skin or opinion in this game since you have no idea what your plants could really do if they could breath.

I am just sharing some positive information and I don't really understand the debate. ITS NOT ABOUT AKADAMA. Akadama is just a means to an end. No fricken magic, just soil science.

If you have never used akadama and wish to try it, I will send five people a small 7 x 7 x 6 flat rate box of my soil mix with akadama in it. About half a gallon, enough for a medium size plant. Send me the PM's and I will pick five. Give me some background of what you are using currently and I would also like to have the five be someone that has not repotted yet so they can try it this year.

Have fun, I am serious as a heart attack about this. I have always been very generous with my hobby and sometime I get a bad rap, thats what can passion can do. I wish five people to use it that have never tried it before and let the forum know how it does for you.

 

[Smoke]

I meant to say: Very well written and informative thread Al! With your permission I would like to print the text for our club. Credited of course.

With pleasure. I think this is something that should be shared with every club.

 

[A Random User]

Smoke, in all actuality none of us really need to grow our bonsai in anything...
By this, I mean it is actually possible through hydroponics to grow plants in thin air,
With no soil of any kind at all.
There is an awesome exhibit at Disney's Epcot, in a portion called the land, where plants
Are suspended in air with their roots totally exposed, on a conveyor setup, that periodically
Runs them through a spaying setup, that obviously not only keeps the roots from drying up,
But also feeds them as well.

It would make displaying and viewing our bonsai a tad bit more complicated though...
You would keep having to wait for them to come back around.
Not to mention put alot of pot and stand guys out of work.

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, in all actuality none of us really need to grow our bonsai in anything...
By this, I mean it is actually possible through hydroponics to grow plants in thin air,
With no soil of any kind at all.
There is an awesome exhibit at Disney's Epcot, in a portion called the land, where plants
Are suspended in air with their roots totally exposed, on a conveyor setup, that periodically
Runs them through a spaying setup, that obviously not only keeps the roots from drying up,
But also feeds them as well.

It would make displaying and viewing our bonsai a tad bit more complicated though...
You would keep having to wait for them to come back around.
Not to mention put alot of pot and stand guys out of work.

No shit...I had no idea.

 

[A Random User]

No shit...I had no idea.

Do a Google search... quite fascinating !!!

 

[A Random User]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics

Sorry, was on my phone earlier and haven't quite got the hang of
cutting and pasting web url's

 

[Smoke]

Smoke, in all actuality none of us really need to grow our bonsai in anything...
By this, I mean it is actually possible through hydroponics to grow plants in thin air,
With no soil of any kind at all.
There is an awesome exhibit at Disney's Epcot, in a portion called the land, where plants
Are suspended in air with their roots totally exposed, on a conveyor setup, that periodically
Runs them through a spaying setup, that obviously not only keeps the roots from drying up,
But also feeds them as well.

It would make displaying and viewing our bonsai a tad bit more complicated though...
You would keep having to wait for them to come back around.
Not to mention put alot of pot and stand guys out of work.

Is this the definition of an uninformed voter?

 

[Smoke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics

Sorry, was on my phone earlier and haven't quite got the hang of
cutting and pasting web url's

Obviously you didn't read the second paragraph of my opening post.

Scroll down to the bottom of your link and click on "plant nutrition" to read the rest of the story.

 

[A Random User]

Obviously you didn't read the second paragraph of my opening post.

Scroll down to the bottom of your link and click on "plant nutrition" to read the rest of the story.

Oh... I see you are trying to make a funny !!! Ha,Ha,Ha...
No, I actually gave up reading after it seemed like I was being preached too...
Still, at least the "Aeroponics" link will be of use to some one, seeing that it
does as you say show it with pics.

 

[Smoke]

Oh... I see you are trying to make a funny !!! Ha,Ha,Ha...
No, I actually gave up reading after it seemed like I was being preached too...
Still, at least the "Aeroponics" link will be of use to some one, seeing that it
does as you say show it with pics.

Sounds like the swamps is the right place for you to be then....

Thanks for the picture and the link, I love it when someone unknowingly reinforces my position.

 

[M. Frary]

Smoke, in all actuality none of us really need to grow our bonsai in anything...
By this, I mean it is actually possible through hydroponics to grow plants in thin air,
With no soil of any kind at all.
There is an awesome exhibit at Disney's Epcot, in a portion called the land, where plants
Are suspended in air with their roots totally exposed, on a conveyor setup, that periodically
Runs them through a spaying setup, that obviously not only keeps the roots from drying up,
But also feeds them as well.

It would make displaying and viewing our bonsai a tad bit more complicated though...
You would keep having to wait for them to come back around.
Not to mention put alot of pot and stand guys out of work.

Pot guys love hydroponics

 

[FrankP999]

Smoke,
A question regarding your new feeding regimen using the injection/suction device you mentioned in another thread.

If you are feeding daily by watering with the diluted solution, do you still need clay/akadama/bark/organics to "hold onto" the nutrients? Or put another way, does CEC of the substrate no longer matter with your method of fertilizing?

Thanks

Frank

 

[A Random User]

Sounds like the swamps is the right place for you to be then....

Thanks for the picture and the link, I love it when someone unknowingly reinforces my position.

But Smoke, is their any other way to reinforce your position ???

So... I once had someone ask me if I grind and mix my own ink when
painting my brush paintings. I told them no I use a premade ink
out of the bottle, for I am not in the grinding and mixing Ink business...
I am in the painting business.

For some there will always be a particular part of an art that really is
important to them. For others this isn't so... it is only a means to an end...
I personally am not going to scour the earth trying to find the best growing medium.
I would rather folks like yourselves tell me what to plant it in. I will try it... If my plants do
not die, I will continue to try it... If it produces better results than what I was
using before than fine, I would make the change.

Sorry, I myself am not in the soil business... I am an artist foremost, not a
gardener and I am really am not that concerned about what is the hippest
soil of the hour.

 

[A Random User]

Pot guys love hydroponics

Yes, but do they love "aeroponics"...