Some facts about bonsai soil

[Adair M]

Chris: Boon has a sprinkler system on timers to water his trees. In addition, he has individual spray heads with directional sprayers to precisely control how much water each tree gets, and for big pots, this may require two or three of these directional sprayers.

So, Boon is able to water one half of the tree more than the other half!

Your objection is unfounded.

By the way, the reason there is some white debris on the table is I had made one or two scrapes along the bottom. It wasn't until I started that I noticed the two tone root ball. When we lifted it out of the pot, we lifted it straight up, then pulled the Anderson flat ou and set it back down. Then I tilted it to start the root work, and there it was.

You start at the bottom edge when scraping. Otherwise, if you start at the top, the soil falls down onto the table, and it blocks the bottom!

 

[coh]

OK - even assuming that this tree was so precisely watered all year that each side maintained the proper level of moisture (and that's a big assumption)...look at your experimental design. You take a tree that has been in a nursery mix with a decaying organic component for X years. You unpot, rake out/prune the roots on half of the tree, and replace the soil on that half with a premium, well draining mix. Then a year or two later you unpot again and see "better" root growth on the new soil side. What exactly is that supposed to prove? The old organic soil on one side has continued to decay for another year or two, and those roots were not stimulated by pruning. Of course the roots will look better on the more recently replaced side! I bet they would look better (maybe not as good) if that side had been replaced with fresh nursery mix as well.

I'm not trying to argue that the Boon type mix doesn't work well - there has been plenty of evidence from plenty of people that it does. I'm just saying that this type of comparison doesn't really prove anything. There are too many variables.

Chris

 

[A Random User]

OK - even assuming that this tree was so precisely watered all year that each side maintained the proper level of moisture (and that's a big assumption)...look at your experimental design. You take a tree that has been in a nursery mix with a decaying organic component for X years. You unpot, rake out/prune the roots on half of the tree, and replace the soil on that half with a premium, well draining mix. Then a year or two later you unpot again and see "better" root growth on the new soil side. What exactly is that supposed to prove? The old organic soil on one side has continued to decay for another year or two, and those roots were not stimulated by pruning. Of course the roots will look better on the more recently replaced side! I bet they would look better (maybe not as good) if that side had been replaced with fresh nursery mix as well.

I'm not trying to argue that the Boon type mix doesn't work well - there has been plenty of evidence from plenty of people that it does. I'm just saying that this type of comparison doesn't really prove anything. There are too many variables.

Chris

I agree with this ... and have no dog in the fight over either soil either.
Do find it funny though how everyone got really excited and started posting
A mile a minute !!! As though it was a sign from the promise land...

 

[Adair M]

Wow. Just wow.

This tree was grown the the ground. Then dug up by the nursery, and put in the Anderson flat for a year. Then, it went to Boon's and half bare rooted. So, it has two years in the old soil, one year in Boon mix.

Look, I can't do a double blind, audited peer reviewed scientific test. I show the best evidence of the superior root growth using Boon mix over a mix that is commonly used, and yet you still complain it doesn't mean anything.

Perusing this thread reminded me of this pic, I thought everyone would find it interesting, if not enlightening.

 

[fourteener]

Opening this thread is like driving by an accident. You know you won't really see anything, yet you are compelled to look...and then wonder why you did!!


Good roots, good shoots! May it be true for all!

 

[coh]

Wow. Just wow.

This tree was grown the the ground. Then dug up by the nursery, and put in the Anderson flat for a year. Then, it went to Boon's and half bare rooted. So, it has two years in the old soil, one year in Boon mix.

Look, I can't do a double blind, audited peer reviewed scientific test. I show the best evidence of the superior root growth using Boon mix over a mix that is commonly used, and yet you still complain it doesn't mean anything.

Perusing this thread reminded me of this pic, I thought everyone would find it interesting, if not enlightening.

The pic is interesting, but without the additional context you've finally provided, it wasn't all that enlightening. Were we all supposed to just know that the tree had only spent a single year in the nursery mix after being dug up? That little tidbit of information makes a big difference in how the picture is interpreted. So thanks for providing the clarification.

Chris

 

[A Random User]

Adair, I must be missing something cause I never really understood
This fight over "boons mix"... or even better the amazement of its followers
To try with such determination to prove how unbelievably great it is.

Ok... it's great, and how could it not perhaps be. I mean for all intensive
Purposes isn't it pretty much the same mix that alot of Japanese have been
Using for years ?

The only argument I have heard regarding any of the mixture here at
B-Nut, has been some up north talking about akadama breaking down due
To their weather.

But you act as though someone just shot your dog over what most of us
Might actually agree with. I just think that a pic with one side growing better
Proves as much as one of those cleaning commercials that cleans hard baked
On food that really just looks like some spilt ketchup.

I have to agree with Coh on this one... I would even go so far as to say if you
Were to take a tree out of some broken down boon mix, and put it in some
Commercial grade bonsai soil, you would more that likely end up with a mass
Amount of new roots.

This does not mean boon's soil isn't perhaps great, or even awesome...
It just means this really doesn't make a case one way or another.

 

[FrankP999]

Smoke,
I would like to hear your thoughts on this when you have a moment.

Frank

Smoke,
A question regarding your new feeding regimen using the injection/suction device you mentioned in another thread.

If you are feeding daily by watering with the diluted solution, do you still need clay/akadama/bark/organics to "hold onto" the nutrients? Or put another way, does CEC of the substrate no longer matter with your method of fertilizing?

Thanks

Frank

 

[A Random User]

Ok.....
Sorry was typing on phone and I am slow.
I didn't see your new post.
So, where you are going with this is that one side
Has 2 years growth in its soil and the one that has 1 years
Growth is much more substantial...

I think this crucial point that was left out better makes
Your case and obviously makes more sense.

 

[Adair M]

Look... Boon didn't invent this mix. It IS the mix the Japanese have been using for years. (Or as close to it as we can make it. The Japanese use "River Sand" instead of lava rock. Their river sand is different from our river sand, and lava rock is a good substitute. )

But, until Boon popularized it, it wasn't used here in the US. It's totally inorganic. Which is still very controversial, apparently.

I thought the picture was pretty illustrative of the difference between growing a JBP in soil with organic components vs soil growing in inorganic components.

The white half (the Boon Mix) was completely filled with roots and mychorazae. There were fewer roots in the dark soil and no mychorazae. Same tree.

If you would rather I keep this information to myself, I'll be happy to.

 

[nathanbs]

Look... Boon didn't invent this mix. It IS the mix the Japanese have been using for years. (Or as close to it as we can make it. The Japanese use "River Sand" instead of lava rock. Their river sand is different from our river sand, and lava rock is a good substitute. )

But, until Boon popularized it, it wasn't used here in the US. It's totally inorganic. Which is still very controversial, apparently.

I thought the picture was pretty illustrative of the difference between growing a JBP in soil with organic components vs soil growing in inorganic components.

The white half (the Boon Mix) was completely filled with roots and mychorazae. There were fewer roots in the dark soil and no mychorazae. Same tree.

If you would rather I keep this information to myself, I'll be happy to.

The river sand is Kiryu correct? House of bonsai just started selling it. Let me know if you know if that's the correct name

 

[edprocoat]

Look... Boon didn't invent this mix. It IS the mix the Japanese have been using for years. (Or as close to it as we can make it. The Japanese use "River Sand" instead of lava rock. Their river sand is different from our river sand, and lava rock is a good substitute. )

But, until Boon popularized it, it wasn't used here in the US. It's totally inorganic. Which is still very controversial, apparently.

I thought the picture was pretty illustrative of the difference between growing a JBP in soil with organic components vs soil growing in inorganic components.

The white half (the Boon Mix) was completely filled with roots and mychorazae. There were fewer roots in the dark soil and no mychorazae. Same tree.

If you would rather I keep this information to myself, I'll be happy to.

What would make you think totally inorganic is controversial ?

ed

 

[A Random User]

Look... Boon didn't invent this mix. It IS the mix the Japanese have been using for years. (Or as close to it as we can make it. The Japanese use "River Sand" instead of lava rock. Their river sand is different from our river sand, and lava rock is a good substitute. )

But, until Boon popularized it, it wasn't used here in the US. It's totally inorganic. Which is still very controversial, apparently.

I thought the picture was pretty illustrative of the difference between growing a JBP in soil with organic components vs soil growing in inorganic components.

The white half (the Boon Mix) was completely filled with roots and mychorazae. There were fewer roots in the dark soil and no mychorazae. Same tree.

If you would rather I keep this information to myself, I'll be happy to.

Adair, I don't want you to keep the information to yourself, I think it is a very
Beneficial part of any soil discussion... all I am saying is that I would think it is
Safe to say that most in the Bonsai community would agree that a non organic
Mix is the best... I don't think that the boon mix is that controversial anymore,
Perhaps it was years ago when it first came out, but then again, so was the car,
And the lightbulb. I think that most have moved on from here, and from my personal
Observation, the only one's who really seem to be carrying this torch are boon mix
Supporters...

Now, one might argue why then are people still using a soil then that isn't
As good, and why then is such a soil still being pushed as a recommended soil
For use in bonsai... and I think that the answer would be multi fold. First,
Accessibility to certain elements of the boon mix, price, which kinda goes
Hand in hand with accessibility... if it's hard to get, it is going to cost more. For
Some, as mentioned they say portions of the mix break down, which is obviously
Debatable, and if is the case, I am sure a relative substitute could be found.
Lastly, for alot of folks it is a water management issue. Some of us haven't been
Able to financial or time wise been able to make the jump over yet, to be able
To increase a watering regiment.

I currently use an organic mix and actually water every other day, even in the
Hottest times of the year. Now I am lucky because I live in a very humid climate,
Which certainly helps... but, by allowing my plants to go longer between waterings,
I am still allowing air to get down into the soil, and most of my trees need to be repotted
Every year, not because I want to, but because they are actually pushing up out of the pots,
because of the amount of roots that are being established. So, they are not suffering...
Could they be doing better ? Of course... and when I am able, I will make the jump
Over as soon as I can. Just not there yet, but still doing bonsai...

 

[FrankP999]

If you would rather I keep this information to myself, I'll be happy to.

Adair,
On the contrary, I REALLY appreciate that you share what you have learned at Boon's intensives. I know you spend lot$$$ to attend, and are gracious to share.

For others, I personally know Adair thru the Atlanta Bonsai Society and watched Boon and Adair graft a pine at one of our club's meetings last year. That was very informative. Adair is a gracious Southern Gentleman and I appreciate his willingness to take the time to share his knowledge.

Frank

 

[Poink88]

Look... Boon didn't invent this mix. It IS the mix the Japanese have been using for years. (Or as close to it as we can make it. The Japanese use "River Sand" instead of lava rock. Their river sand is different from our river sand, and lava rock is a good substitute. )

But, until Boon popularized it, it wasn't used here in the US. It's totally inorganic. Which is still very controversial, apparently.

I thought the picture was pretty illustrative of the difference between growing a JBP in soil with organic components vs soil growing in inorganic components.

The white half (the Boon Mix) was completely filled with roots and mychorazae. There were fewer roots in the dark soil and no mychorazae. Same tree.

If you would rather I keep this information to myself, I'll be happy to.

I too appreciate you sharing.

Please do not interpret my depending Turface as an attack to Boon's mix, akadama, lava, or pumice...because it is not.

 

[Adair M]

Dario,

Try to find something other than turface. I used to use it, years ago. Lava rock is better. The lava rock I use is used by sports facilities, it is used for baseball pitcher's mounds.

Maybe you could find a source searching for it that way.

 

[coh]

Is it the beam clay lava? I'm able to get that locally in 50 pound bags and have started experimenting with it.

 

[Poink88]

Dario,

Try to find something other than turface. I used to use it, years ago. Lava rock is better. The lava rock I use is used by sports facilities, it is used for baseball pitcher's mounds.

Maybe you could find a source searching for it that way.

Adair,

Scott (markyscott) already gave me a lead and we are checking our bonsai club if others are willing to buy so we can split 2 tons (1 ton lava, 1 ton pumice). It is a bit slow with a local show going but we should be discussing it more the next few weeks.

Thank you.

 

[FrankP999]

Dario,

Try to find something other than turface. I used to use it, years ago. Lava rock is better. The lava rock I use is used by sports facilities, it is used for baseball pitcher's mounds.

Maybe you could find a source searching for it that way.

Adair, Where do you buy this in Georgia? Thanks

Frank

 

[Adair M]

It is the Beam Clay lava.

I got mine from Plant City Bonsai in Clermont, GA.

I dont know if Steve has any right now. I bought several bags last year that I'm using.

By the way, I gave a workshop today on some zelkova Steve brought in from California. They turned out pretty well! SERIOUS root work!

And, I repotted my little zelkova that I had screwed to a board. Sandy took some pics. I'll start a new thread about it.