SI have decided to go back into bonsaiNut seclusion.ee ya guys.

[sorce]

What exactly have you contributed?

Try not to fall victim to the evilness of this thread.

How does someone so bent up on being the greatest teacher, care what people contribute?

The demand for contribution is not to find the best new person, but to discredit other teachers.

Discrediting other teachers will make teachers leave a forum before a couple bratty kids that don't want to learn. Ask any grown sensible teacher!

Truth.

Teaching under cover of PM. That's where I smell BS.

Sorce

 

[Smoke]

Hi Clorgan nice to meet you. I see you understand that your material is not up to par. What will you be doing about that. There is lots of material for sale all over the net. Is there something I am missing as to why you can't be LEARNING on better material?
Sincerely Al Keppler

Let me change it up...What does better material mean to you? What do you think I mean by better material?

These are questions you have to answer for yourself, because the answer to the questions is the indicator if you have reached a level of moving to the next step. It's a thing I do in workshops that I give, It's sometimes hard to face up to the truth, but it can make you better if you embrace it for why it was told to you. If you just think it's mean, then you are not ready to move forward. ...and yes, this is a mentality thing.

 

[_#1_]

Try not to fall victim to the evilness of this thread.

How does someone so bent up on being the greatest teacher, care what people contribute?

"evilness" is relative. Depends on which side of the isle you're on?

Ex:
New student: Teacher, why you such a dick? You know your stuff but...
Teacher: We all have our faults. But this class is the only one still standing, and going strong. Do you have a material to show us so we all, myself included, can help you make your tree the best it can?
New student: No, I don't. But I will tell you you're a dick and a problem to this great site. You are not needed here cause we have more teachers. Even though you contributed tremendously here.
Teacher: Only way for new students to learn is to show everyone what they have. That way they can get tips and hands on experience on improving their material(s). And yes I can be a dick. We all can...
New student: You are a major player here BUT, you're still a dick.
Teacher: ........

I was always under the assumption this was a bonsai site with general horticulture as well. Not a psychology site where people discuss social interactions and what not.

Would you agree though, that all the complaining newbs should just post up their stuff and a plan to improve the material? At that point, it's all about the tree right?

 

[Clorgan]

Hi Clorgan nice to meet you. I see you understand that your material is not up to par. What will you be doing about that. There is lots of material for sale all over the net. Is there something I am missing as to why you can't be LEARNING on better material?
Sincerely Al Keppler

If only I didn't suspect that was sarcastic, I'd be really happy with that response. But I will gladly answer your questions.

Money is a big factor - I'd say I earn a reasonable living and am really lucky in that sense, however spending a lot on material when I may make mistakes and not have the knowledge to keep them alive, is a waste in my opinion. It seems more productive to get cheaper material to make the mistakes on. I got 5 very cheap plants probably for the price I could pay for one decent piece of material, maybe even less (that is a guess - do not quote me on it). These plants have helped me to learn a little about pruning, soil, repotting, roots and timings. They are a stepping stone into the world of bonsai. I fail to see how this is a problem?

If they survive (yep caveat again, because I realise they may not) once I think I have learned from them - they will likely move to another destination. I plan on acquiring some planters for the garden at some point - some could go in there. Some could be used in my school to help kids learn and enjoy nature. I would probably then go about buying better material, which from what I've found is a lot more expensive.

It's also the wrong time of year (or so I believe) to go and collect material, and I don't yet have the knowledge to do this successfully either. Again, once I have more knowledge of how to look after and style plants, I will likely look into this. I wouldn't want to risk collecting great material until I had some confidence that I knew how to help it thrive.

I am also new to my area so do not have many contacts and therefore don't have a handy neighbour who is clearing out their garden and offering free or cheap plants.

I also live on a new build estate - my garden (and everyone else's gardens) consist of lawn and nothing else.

You say there is a lot of material available on the net - if you could direct me to some UK sites which you think sell better material and some examples that would be really appreciated

 

[anon user]

What exactly have you contributed?

Well, since this is an "open" community that polices itself, I've called out the shit of poorly behaving member

 

[Clorgan]

Let me change it up...What does better material mean to you? What do you think I mean by better material?

These are questions you have to answer for yourself, because the answer to the questions is the indicator if you have reached a level of moving to the next step. It's a thing I do in workshops that I give, It's sometimes hard to face up to the truth, but it can make you better if you embrace it for why it was told to you. If you just think it's mean, then you are not ready to move forward. ...and yes, this is a mentality thing.

I don't think they're mean questions at all, I actually think they're sensible, interesting and important ones. I hope you realise that I really am open to thought-provoking questions and do not need everything sugar coating. My only objection is rudeness - that has been my point all along.

I want to answer your questions, and I'm actually really glad you asked them and would be interested to see what you think to my response. Because I know you know a lot, and realise that you are a valuable resource in this forum.

So...to me the most obvious sign of better material is that which has a good and developed trunk - good thickness, taper, not scarred. Then there's visible roots which are evenly spread, good branch structure as having to cut branches causes scars and possibly infection. I'm aware that doing as little structural work as possible is the way to go. Then there's the general is the material healthy stuff - are the leaves healthy (green at this time of year), are there visible blemishes, is it in good soil/are the roots taking up the soil so there is no good soil left?

That's what I would currently be thinking about. I don't know if these things indicate I have reached a level of moving to the next step or not. If I have then that's exciting, if not, that's OK - it means I've just got some more learning to do before I get there. I'm happy with either scenario.

 

[anon user]

Everything is. You lost me on some of the rest. I think you are not arguing, but ignorants argue so much I can't tell when people ain't! lol! But seriously!

Yeah, I'm not arguing...not in the hothead must have my way stomping my feet sense anyway

BNut is an older community but that doesn't mean it's a healthy one. It doesn't feel healthy to me anyway.

One the one extreme you have Smoke...who does have some validity behind his stomping and smashing. These people seem to want a "high end" bonsai forum where masters call the shots because they've "earned it" and don't bother coming here if you are not interested in competition level bonsai because that stick you have in a pot is crap and I can't fathom any other reason for you to _want_ to spend time on a tree other than for it to be the most bestest fucking tree that ever was! It's a narrow point of view...valid, but extreme.

On the other end of the spectrum you have trolls like me who can't avoid this fucking place to save our lives because, like it or not, stick in a pot = bonsai even when bonsai != stick in a pot! I have some quercus virginiana I grew from acorns I picked up on a family vacation in New Orleans. What I grow is more of a memory garden than a pretense at bonsai. However, when I search "repot live oak" because now I need to repot them...the very first result is a list of threads from where? Yeah, here! So here I sit at the other end of the extreme. I want information BNut has...but not for the reasons BNut has it.

In a healthy public forum with as wide a swath of interest as this forum gathers, there would be enough of a middle class...people who think they may want to be bonsai masters some day, people casually doing "bonsai" but not interested in competition level other than something to do on a Saturday, etc.., etc.., etc...Ideally there would be enough of those people that the masters and the more casual are insulated from one another. That's the value of sub-forums...people interested in subtopics are somewhat isolated from threads they don't care about. The masters have enough "real enthusiasts" to fill their expectations and the misfits like me have enough casuals struggling along in a similar manner but towards their own destinations.

Instead, what I see is a ruling class trying to impose their will upon those who just want to do their own thing. So, here I sit. I'd like to engage with the community, but I do so cautiously because I know my interests are tangential and I see how the ruling class treats the commoners. Do I really need to post my tree so that it can be torn apart for not being what I don't want it to be in the first place just because somewhere in this group of diverse people lies the knowledge of how to safely transplant it? That doesn't sound like an open and inviting community willing to share knowledge and learn to me!

As for all my shit posts...well, one doesn't need to be black to support the black lives matter movement and the racial injustice towards people of color. I see what I feel strongly is one individual behaving very badly in a self policed community...I'm gonna call that shit out!

 

[anon user]

...with general horticulture as well.

If this were true I would engage more here with no qualms what-so-ever. General horticulture is pretty much my sole interest in this forum...because Google is constantly shoving me here.

However, posts by Smoke and others have given me strong indications that whatever tree I post here will be shit and I should throw it out because it will never be quality bonsai. So it's really not "general horticulture"...it's high end bonsai horticulture advertised as general horticulture.

 

[_#1_]

Well, since this is an "open" community that polices itself, I've called out the shit of poorly behaving member

What if I told you the poorly behaving members are the ones just shit talking that never posted a single tree to meaningfully discuss?

If this were true I would engage more here with no qualms what-so-ever. General horticulture is pretty much my sole interest in this forum...because Google is constantly shoving me here.

However, posts by Smoke and others have given me strong indications that whatever tree I post here will be shit and I should throw it out because it will never be quality bonsai. So it's really not "general horticulture"...it's high end bonsai horticulture advertised as general horticulture.

If your one and only purpose was to get info, than you're nothing but a taker. As someone has said, if you're a taker, take and shut up. But if you want to contribute to the site, post a tree or two as well as your plan on what to want for it's future.

 

[Smoke]

Yeah, I'm not arguing...not in the hothead must have my way stomping my feet sense anyway

BNut is an older community but that doesn't mean it's a healthy one. It doesn't feel healthy to me anyway.

One the one extreme you have Smoke...who does have some validity behind his stomping and smashing. These people seem to want a "high end" bonsai forum where masters call the shots because they've "earned it" and don't bother coming here if you are not interested in competition level bonsai because that stick you have in a pot is crap and I can't fathom any other reason for you to _want_ to spend time on a tree other than for it to be the most bestest fucking tree that ever was! It's a narrow point of view...valid, but extreme.

On the other end of the spectrum you have trolls like me who can't avoid this fucking place to save our lives because, like it or not, stick in a pot = bonsai even when bonsai != stick in a pot! I have some quercus virginiana I grew from acorns I picked up on a family vacation in New Orleans. What I grow is more of a memory garden than a pretense at bonsai. However, when I search "repot live oak" because now I need to repot them...the very first result is a list of threads from where? Yeah, here! So here I sit at the other end of the extreme. I want information BNut has...but not for the reasons BNut has it.

In a healthy public forum with as wide a swath of interest as this forum gathers, there would be enough of a middle class...people who think they may want to be bonsai masters some day, people casually doing "bonsai" but not interested in competition level other than something to do on a Saturday, etc.., etc.., etc...Ideally there would be enough of those people that the masters and the more casual are insulated from one another. That's the value of sub-forums...people interested in subtopics are somewhat isolated from threads they don't care about. The masters have enough "real enthusiasts" to fill their expectations and the misfits like me have enough casuals struggling along in a similar manner but towards their own destinations.

Instead, what I see is a ruling class trying to impose their will upon those who just want to do their own thing. So, here I sit. I'd like to engage with the community, but I do so cautiously because I know my interests are tangential and I see how the ruling class treats the commoners. Do I really need to post my tree so that it can be torn apart for not being what I don't want it to be in the first place just because somewhere in this group of diverse people lies the knowledge of how to safely transplant it? That doesn't sound like an open and inviting community willing to share knowledge and learn to me!

As for all my shit posts...well, one doesn't need to be black to support the black lives matter movement and the racial injustice towards people of color. I see what I feel strongly is one individual behaving very badly in a self policed community...I'm gonna call that shit out!

Long post, you must like to type. Think about it like this for a moment. Bonsai is not mainstream, never has been and never will be. Let's think about bonsai and TV for a moment. Who do you think the networks would be willing to pay and have be the person teaching their shows. Forget personality cause for the most part it could be done with out sound as far as that goes, that's how I tolerate Ryan Neil video's, by turning the sound off.

I'm not saying you aren't right, I'm just saying let your trees be your calling card. when you look at trees on the internet do you look for the shittiest place on the web to see trees. No, I'm sure you could go to hundreds of places to see great trees. There is a place for everyone here.

How did we get to black lives matter? we don't have the karaoke bar anymore...

Sounds like a snowflake to me...stop whining. Post a tree and relax. For a guy who thinks I got social issues......

Anything worth doing is worth doing right...

 

[Adair M]

Anything worth doing is worth doing right...

I agree. And, I think it’s ironic you posted that! Because a lot of the disagreements you and I have had over the years have been about that!

Take, for example, the pine you posted on that other thread where you invited critiques. I didn’t mention the wiring, which I think is pretty sloppily done. BVF mentioned it, and how it would be better to use copper, etc. And I concur. I didn’t mention it because you have argued in the past that you can do everything you want with copper, and it doesn’t matter how it looks since “it gets the job done”. Well, yes, and no. Since copper holds so well, you can “do more with it” than you can with aluminum. You can put in more subtle curves. Using thinner wire. It visually disappears, so you can show a tree wired with copper. Using copper on conifers is “worth doing right”.

 

[Smoke]

If only I didn't suspect that was sarcastic, I'd be really happy with that response. But I will gladly answer your questions.

Money is a big factor - I'd say I earn a reasonable living and am really lucky in that sense, however spending a lot on material when I may make mistakes and not have the knowledge to keep them alive, is a waste in my opinion. It seems more productive to get cheaper material to make the mistakes on. I got 5 very cheap plants probably for the price I could pay for one decent piece of material, maybe even less (that is a guess - do not quote me on it). These plants have helped me to learn a little about pruning, soil, repotting, roots and timings. They are a stepping stone into the world of bonsai. I fail to see how this is a problem?

If they survive (yep caveat again, because I realise they may not) once I think I have learned from them - they will likely move to another destination. I plan on acquiring some planters for the garden at some point - some could go in there. Some could be used in my school to help kids learn and enjoy nature. I would probably then go about buying better material, which from what I've found is a lot more expensive.

It's also the wrong time of year (or so I believe) to go and collect material, and I don't yet have the knowledge to do this successfully either. Again, once I have more knowledge of how to look after and style plants, I will likely look into this. I wouldn't want to risk collecting great material until I had some confidence that I knew how to help it thrive.

I am also new to my area so do not have many contacts and therefore don't have a handy neighbour who is clearing out their garden and offering free or cheap plants.

I also live on a new build estate - my garden (and everyone else's gardens) consist of lawn and nothing else.

You say there is a lot of material available on the net - if you could direct me to some UK sites which you think sell better material and some examples that would be really appreciated

Another long typer.....

Let's do an experiment. here is a tree.



I have no idea what it's worth, It's in a cheap Chinese pot, that it was in when I got it. I went to a show five years ago, might have been Santa Cruz, and a guy selling trees asked me to help him out, he hadn't sold much and frankly most of it was worthless. He needed money and hadn't worked for a few years and was trying to make a living selling trees. He asked me if there was anything I could see that I might like. I chose the pine. He said he would take 30.00 for it cause he needed the money. I said sure I'll help out. So I bought the tree. I have not worked it, it's the way it was when I bought it, never candle pruned it, it has the wire on it when I bought it. Some of the shoots are beyond the wire so I know they have elongated since then but it still a crappy tree.

What if I said you can have it for fifty dollars, just the way it is. You might say, dude I don't have that kind of money. I can sympathize with that. I did my time raising a family and not having money to throw away on trees over diapers, please don't think I know where you are coming from when you say money is a big part of what you have....I know. I am retired on SSI and a fixed income. I have no money for trees either. But I scratched and saved to get the things I have so when I did retire I had things to play with.

So the tree...I posted it in another thread hoping some newbies, which is why I posted it there, (but the pine rockstars all came in and gave their suggestions for the tree), would give their take on it and we could discuss that. With the other suggestions there now, it will be pretty hard for anyone new to come and comment freely. The tree has been rewired a week ago before I even posted this image. I just chose this tree because I have never posted it here and I already worked it so it is ready to be posted there.

So now the tree looks like this:


Still in the shitty pot, the tree is 6 inches tall and has a 7/8 inch trunk. Lots has been done to it, see if you can pick out the items by looking at the two photo's. I'm thinking about putting it on FB auctions. Someone there will give two hundred for it, some of those people have way more money than brains. No matter what....It's still a shitty tree, and my point is....
Money spent is not the issue, what is the issue is "WHAT" you buy. Or....even dig up.

 

[Smoke]

I agree. And, I think it’s ironic you posted that! Because a lot of the disagreements you and I have had over the years have been about that!

Take, for example, the pine you posted on that other thread where you invited critiques. I didn’t mention the wiring, which I think is pretty sloppily done. BVF mentioned it, and how it would be better to use copper, etc. And I concur. I didn’t mention it because you have argued in the past that you can do everything you want with copper, and it doesn’t matter how it looks since “it gets the job done”. Well, yes, and no. Since copper holds so well, you can “do more with it” than you can with aluminum. You can put in more subtle curves. Using thinner wire. It visually disappears, so you can show a tree wired with copper. Using copper on conifers is “worth doing right”.

I agree...

If you knew more about the tree...you might not have said anything....

 

[Clorgan]

Another long typer.....

Let's do an experiment. here is a tree.

View attachment 308891

I have no idea what it's worth, It's in a cheap Chinese pot, that it was in when I got it. I went to a show five years ago, might have been Santa Cruz, and a guy selling trees asked me to help him out, he hadn't sold much and frankly most of it was worthless. He needed money and hadn't worked for a few years and was trying to make a living selling trees. He asked me if there was anything I could see that I might like. I chose the pine. He said he would take 30.00 for it cause he needed the money. I said sure I'll help out. So I bought the tree. I have not worked it, it's the way it was when I bought it, never candle pruned it, it has the wire on it when I bought it. Some of the shoots are beyond the wire so I know they have elongated since then but it still a crappy tree.

What if I said you can have it for fifty dollars, just the way it is. You might say, dude I don't have that kind of money. I can sympathize with that. I did my time raising a family and not having money to throw away on trees over diapers, please don't think I know where you are coming from when you say money is a big part of what you have....I know. I am retired on SSI and a fixed income. I have no money for trees either. But I scratched and saved to get the things I have so when I did retire I had things to play with.

So the tree...I posted it in another thread hoping some newbies, which is why I posted it there, (but the pine rockstars all came in and gave their suggestions for the tree), would give their take on it and we could discuss that. With the other suggestions there now, it will be pretty hard for anyone new to come and comment freely. The tree has been rewired a week ago before I even posted this image. I just chose this tree because I have never posted it here and I already worked it so it is ready to be posted there.

So now the tree looks like this:
View attachment 308898

Still in the shitty pot, the tree is 6 inches tall and has a 7/8 inch trunk. Lots has been done to it, see if you can pick out the items by looking at the two photo's. I'm thinking about putting it on FB auctions. Someone there will give two hundred for it, some of those people have way more money than brains. No matter what....It's still a shitty tree, and my point is....
Money spent is not the issue, what is the issue is "WHAT" you buy. Or....even dig up.

You really are making this difficult - it seems like you are just looking for ways to further belittle me. I wrote a lot as I was answering your questions, which I didn't need to do, but gave you the benefit of the doubt that you was actually trying to help. You haven't even acknowledged my comment, let alone offered anything useful in response.

You might be a master in the art of bonsai, but I think you've got a long way to go to be a master of teaching.

I saw the thread, I didn't comment for many reasons:

1. It came across like you were (again) undermining those not as skilled as you - not trying to help
2. It was confusing that you posted it in the newbie section, without stating the reasons that you just explained above, when you clearly aren't a beginner
3. The whole thread is just very odd
4. I have no interest in pines at the present time
5. You've made it quite clear that people who have shit trees shouldn't advise people on their trees


So no, I don't want to be part of your experiment thanks. I've said everything I wanted to say, so good day to you.

 

[Smoke]

So...to me the most obvious sign of better material is that which has a good and developed trunk - good thickness, taper, not scarred. Then there's visible roots which are evenly spread, good branch structure as having to cut branches causes scars and possibly infection. I'm aware that doing as little structural work as possible is the way to go. Then there's the general is the material healthy stuff - are the leaves healthy (green at this time of year), are there visible blemishes, is it in good soil/are the roots taking up the soil so there is no good soil left?

Are you currently doing this? I don't see it so why waste the time typing.

Share the last piece of material you bought or dug. If you wish, if you don't why do you continue to type? Just let this die...

 

[Clorgan]

Are you currently doing this? I don't see it so why waste the time typing.

Share the last piece of material you bought or dug. If you wish, if you don't why do you continue to type? Just let this die...

I've already posted what I've bought (haven't dug anything). Feel free to look at my posts. I'm not going to do so again here just for you to belittle me.

I have said my peace and I really am done now, like I said, feel free to look at my posts and give any constructive criticisms you like. As long as you're respectful, I will respond respectfully.

 

[sorce]

complaining newbs

It's these people that I think are made up.

If they do complain, it's because of how they are treated, not because they don't Believe or heed the advice.

It's Smoke And Mirrors. Not just mirrors.

Unless someone can show me the threads where these Newbs ONLY say Eff the advice.

I'm not arguing the numbers, I don't read everything, but my count is like 1 actual bitch ass complainer.
And about 7 people who were talked down to.

It's not that this IS a

psychology site

But if we focus on the things that make this, or any forum fail and suck, it's usually because of a lack of attention to the psychology that makes it suck.

Forgive me if I'm boastful, but I think it's specifically because of a People First approach that we have grown so strong.

Everyone is here, so we are doing something right!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

These people seem to want a "high end" bonsai forum

Forgive my jumping on this before I read the rest, but "these people" are made up by Smoke too.

Just because he says these people exist, doesn't mean they do, they may have in The past, it just simply isn't the truth anymore.

Of course, I am Open to, hell, I invite pointing of these people out, cuz I feel like cussing them out.
If they existed, I would have already cussed them out.

I will continue to read your post now.

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

So the tree...I posted it in another thread hoping some newbies, which is why I posted it there, (but the pine rockstars all came in and gave their suggestions for the tree), would give their take on it and we could discuss that. With the other suggestions there now, it will be pretty hard for anyone new to come and comment freely.

My bad, didn’t see it was in the “New to Bonsai” forum, I rarely pay attention to forums, just whether or not a thread has new posts.

Be nice, be mean, be bonsai savvy, be any way you wish to be, You will not hurt my feelings and there will be no retaliation

And I was all set to give you grief about moving the goalposts...

 

[TN_Jim]

another random grab after work...

began bottom-up selective defoliation today, also some leaf response