Sekka Hinoki trouble

[Japonicus]

Just off the tele with Steve at PCB. These are as cold hardy as any hinoki per my prior guesstimate, but agreed on the frost damage,
so if it doesn't move by April he will ship another @ 1/2 price. Of course the nebari won't be replaced
but that's as fair a shake as I could ever ask for.

He did say the roots were not messed with, but was slip potted when I bought it.
I guess that was enough to make it frost sensitive.

Just a heads up, unless you can treat it like a tropical, don't slip pot or worse after say early August,
but my guess is Mothers Day is best and pampered at that, for the heat.

 

[Vance Wood]

If it is a bronze color you don't have a problem unless you decide its dead and throw it out.

 

[Japonicus]

So while I'm waiting to get some input from @JudyB on her seedling mats...
expecting temps in the teens Sunday night and Winter chilling in again,
I'm still confused on how to go about protecting this late potter upper with obvious damage to the foliage.
Kicks my butt that I'm even at this point with this tree, but here I am.

I thought I'd heal it into the ground which would be beneficial for the root zone
but not so much for the foliage, so I'm still doing the frost shuffle having a delayed Winter onset.
February is to be near to slightly below avg here, so single digits (Fº) should be easy to come by soon enough.
I'm thinking about putting it under my sunroom where it's dry, but outdoor temps prevail with some wind protection
and on a heat mat of sorts, but I don't know what to be looking for when such cold temps are typical.
Heat mats I've looked at keep the temp 10-20ºF above the ambient temp. but cannot set the temp below 32º.
I assume this means the unit is designed to operate in a more controlled environment?
I should not have this issue of Winter protection for a Hinoki!!!

I even thought about healing it in, between 2 wooden 2x4 stakes with a make shift lean-to
made out of plywood to cover the foliage, but the roots will still freeze at some point.

 

[Japonicus]

So if the soil freezes that the probe is in, it is no longer moist and may/would overheat
indicating this is for a controlled climate use.

 

[JudyB]

So while I'm waiting to get some input from @JudyB on her seedling mats...
expecting temps in the teens Sunday night and Winter chilling in again,
I'm still confused on how to go about protecting this late potter upper with obvious damage to the foliage.
Kicks my butt that I'm even at this point with this tree, but here I am.

I thought I'd heal it into the ground which would be beneficial for the root zone
but not so much for the foliage, so I'm still doing the frost shuffle having a delayed Winter onset.
February is to be near to slightly below avg here, so single digits (Fº) should be easy to come by soon enough.
I'm thinking about putting it under my sunroom where it's dry, but outdoor temps prevail with some wind protection
and on a heat mat of sorts, but I don't know what to be looking for when such cold temps are typical.
Heat mats I've looked at keep the temp 10-20ºF above the ambient temp. but cannot set the temp below 32º.
I assume this means the unit is designed to operate in a more controlled environment?
I should not have this issue of Winter protection for a Hinoki!!!

I even thought about healing it in, between 2 wooden 2x4 stakes with a make shift lean-to
made out of plywood to cover the foliage, but the roots will still freeze at some point.

Not sure of your question yet, but here is a link to a thread where I list out the components I use in my greenhouse, page 3 links to mats and thermostats with probes. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-cold-green-house.10624/page-3

 

[Japonicus]

Not sure of your question yet, but here is a link to a thread where I list out the components I use in my greenhouse, page 3 links to mats and thermostats with probes. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-cold-green-house.10624/page-3

Thank you Judy. Artificial environment providing heat kinda scares me, both for the tree
and for the fire potential. I’ll have a look around your thread again today.

 

[JudyB]

Thank you Judy. Artificial environment providing heat kinda scares me, both for the tree
and for the fire potential. I’ll have a look around your thread again today.

I do not think any of the components I use are going to cause me any fire problems. Although if you get a different type of heater it can be problematic. The one I use is an infrared heater, so not a worry about fire using that type. The heat mats are serious mats, those propagation mats are used in commercial operations, and the thermostats are also reliable. I understand your qualms, but for a sick tree, the heat mat my give you a little edge in treatment. Many people use bottom heat for root growth and recuperation.

 

[Japonicus]

I do not think any of the components I use are going to cause me any fire problems. Although if you get a different type of heater it can be problematic. The one I use is an infrared heater, so not a worry about fire using that type. The heat mats are serious mats, those propagation mats are used in commercial operations, and the thermostats are also reliable. I understand your qualms, but for a sick tree, the heat mat my give you a little edge in treatment. Many people use bottom heat for root growth and recuperation.

Wont be online much tonight, but sounds expensive. Hope there's links in that thread or at least brand names
Thanks for stopping by. Shoot if it costs that much I could just run it up to you and hope for the best LOL.
Even expensive stuff comes with a margin of error and can fail. Like nuclear reactors/coolers etc...

 

[JudyB]

Wont be online much tonight, but sounds expensive. Hope there's links in that thread or at least brand names
Thanks for stopping by. Shoot if it costs that much I could just run it up to you and hope for the best LOL.
Even expensive stuff comes with a margin of error and can fail. Like nuclear reactors/coolers etc...

Yes there are links to brands. There are a number of different sizes, small ones are less for sure. The thermostats are cheap but good. Feel free to contact me if you need to, or just stop by and drop off. I have space!

 

[Japonicus]

Yes there are links to brands. There are a number of different sizes, small ones are less for sure. The thermostats are cheap but good. Feel free to contact me if you need to, or just stop by and drop off. I have space!

OMG aren't you just awesome. Sweet as honey on a bees wing I say.
Thank you, but I think I'll try one of these mats and ride the storm out.
Rather confusing or bewildering to give Winter protection to a zone 5 tree in zone 6
and hopefully the extent of the damage is done, but I think it continues to brown and crisp deeper.
I won't bounce you back n forth between threads any more. I had seen your setup before
just not the one from 2013 that showed the links and all. Very impressive, and thank you
for taking the time to share! Carry on...

 

[Japonicus]

@JudyB
Cant read the ambient temperature very well but reads 26ºF, was 22 with an outdoor low of 17 last night.
10 Tomorrow night which is important because a week ago is hit 80º outdoors.
The heat tape, though not 100% up to snuff on safety precautions, is plugged into a GFCI and kept the root
zone above 40ºF. Heat tape is double wrapped and I think a single wrap would lower the temp to a better place.
I'm liking the idea of the heat mat all the more now, but in a pinch this did work quickly enough and effectively.


Same tape on adjacent maple (not following safety precautions) wrapped more loosely allowed the
temp to drop below freezing when not cycling on. It's a start, this is inside of our sunroom.

 

[JudyB]

View attachment 279747
@JudyB
Cant read the ambient temperature very well but reads 26ºF, was 22 with an outdoor low of 17 last night.
10 Tomorrow night which is important because a week ago is hit 80º outdoors.
The heat tape, though not 100% up to snuff on safety precautions, is plugged into a GFCI and kept the root
zone above 40ºF. Heat tape is double wrapped and I think a single wrap would lower the temp to a better place.
I'm liking the idea of the heat mat all the more now, but in a pinch this did work quickly enough and effectively.

View attachment 279748
Same tape on adjacent maple (not following safety precautions) wrapped more loosely allowed the
temp to drop below freezing when not cycling on. It's a start, this is inside of our sunroom.

If nothing else the experimenting has shown you possibilities.
You should look into getting this weather thing, they are super durable, and I have one station outside that is fine. there is also one you can get to add to these, that has a soil probe. I did have to get a new system this year, as the other one was too old to read as far as it used to to my indoor station. But it lasted quite a long time.

Ambient Weather WS-10 indoor outdoor 8 channel Amazon has them for $43.

 

[Maloghurst]

Embarrassed to picture this, but we all get into issues now and then.
I am open with my troubles and show the not so good side of honest mistakes
even if it's fatal.
View attachment 274154

View attachment 274155
^ This was my purchase mid October this year. I was informed this hinoki had been repotted 2 weeks prior.
View attachment 274156

View attachment 274157
This is now as of the last month of struggles. I tried to protect from the winds, but one day we got an unexpected windy day
and it had already looked pitiful before that, so not the wind really. The cold no doubt was the issue after talking to International Bonsai
and even got a moment on the tele with @William N. Valavanis through my limited research of Seka or sekka.
There is so little info I don't even find the climate or cold hardiness of this cultivar, but I'm betting zone 5 but that's a guess.
That is why I did not protect from the 1st few frosts, and now the crown appears to be all but decimated .
There's still some green in the crown, but it's a... h i n o k I, so no back budding.

The lady at international bonsai.com said it entirely is not my fault given a tree potted 2 weeks prior
but I was comfortable enough with my own care that it didn't phase me making the purchase.
She also said to bring the tree indoors for the rest of the dormant season, which in my hands is sure death.

The owner where I got this seka, said not to prune the dead tips of the branches...DEAD TIPS (a clue) (but all the seka they had looked like that or worse)
and wait till Springtime when new growth was starting and just crumble the old away. It was still too intact to do so then and still is.
I do not like pruning going into Winter, so stay the course and hope for the best in regards to pruning.

I did just bring this into our sun room where I had it for the harder frosts and windy days,
but the ambient temperature out there is mirrored to the outdoors often.
Right now it's 37º F. near the ground under the sunroom and 41.5º in the sun room at the days end (maximum differential).

My thoughts were to heal the pot into the ground and mulch heavily. Compared to my indoor capabilities I think
that is my best alternative, and will provide more light, but less wind protection.
A shame with such a nice nebari. My 1st pre-bonsai purchase in years.

I bought a extremely dwarf hinoki at a nursery. It had some browning tips and was put in clearance. I bought it and repotted it and it did the same thing as yours and died. I would be shocked if some wind and frost killed this tree.
If all you did was take care of it for a 3 months then I would think you deserve a refund.

 

[Japonicus]

I bought a extremely dwarf hinoki at a nursery. It had some browning tips and was put in clearance. I bought it and repotted it and it did the same thing as yours and died. I would be shocked if some wind and frost killed this tree.
If all you did was take care of it for a 3 months then I would think you deserve a refund.

That's it, just cared for it, and I certainly abhor babying a plant for Winters' sake, turns my gut.
The bonsai nursery owner agreed to 50% off a new Seka come Spring/April, if this one dies.
A replacement won't have the nebari this one has I guarantee you, and developing such is not
a given talent in my deck of cards.

So when did you repot yours and to what extent?

 

[Vance Wood]

Take your tree to the nursery where you bought it, However; it may be that the tree was reduced in price and sold without warranty.

 

[Japonicus]

Take your tree to the nursery where you bought it, However; it may be that the tree was reduced in price and sold without warranty.

Hi Vance, I got this on my way home from vacation mid October in Georgia.
They have seen the pictures and are aware of the struggles, so they've offered 50% off another one
if this one does not come out of Winter alive. They will ship it if it comes to that, one in a nursery can no doubt.

I'm curious when Maloghurst potted his up. Needles to say, I will not be buying any freshly repotted hinokis in the future.

I have sprayed it with insecticidal soap since beginning this thread, though there were no mites to be seen, nothing
I could find in that category, no scale...but it was exposed to a couple heavy frosts in November ~1 month post potting.

Water is not passing through the soil well now, and the potter upper told me (edit: now tells me) she merely slip potted it.
However the flimsy plastic nursery can was quite snug, uncharacteristic of my type of freshly potting up
and without any anchoring. I know it doesn't add up, but ...I don't know...maybe some root was lopped off
and crammed into the can in a snug manner as the nursery can is a tad oblong from day 1 for me.
Maybe I'll get a couple more this year and try my own hand at potting them up when I and the plant are ready.
It stands reiterating that my ability to render such fantastic nebari is not my calling
and is the sole reason I purchased this plant when I learned that it was a Hinoki variety.

 

[Maloghurst]

Take your tree to the nursery where you bought it, However; it may be that the tree was reduced in price and sold without warranty.

This is the case with mine. I think mine had a disease of some kind and the 50% price meant no warranty.

 

[Maloghurst]

That's it, just cared for it, and I certainly abhor babying a plant for Winters' sake, turns my gut.
The bonsai nursery owner agreed to 50% off a new Seka come Spring/April, if this one dies.
A replacement won't have the nebari this one has I guarantee you, and developing such is not
a given talent in my deck of cards.

So when did you repot yours and to what extent?
[/quote
I repotted in fall and more then just a slip pot. The tree had started browning before that though. I repotted because it seemed sick. I thought maybe root rot. It had some branches die and cut off before placing in clearance. I think it was doomed from the beginning. Mine was a gemstone, extremely dense variety.
Maybe climate acclimation is the cause for yours but your first pic looks like it already has browning at the ends of branches when you bought it. Usually hinoki inner branches brown not the ends.

I repotted in fall and more then just a slip pot. The tree had started browning before that though. I repotted because it seemed sick. I thought maybe root rot. It had some branches die and cut off before placing in clearance. I think it was doomed from the beginning. Mine was a gemstone, extremely dense variety.
Maybe climate acclimation is the cause for yours but your first pic looks like it already has browning at the ends of branches when you bought it. Usually hinoki inner branches brown not the ends.

 

[Japonicus]

...I think mine had a disease of some kind

This is a golden variety I've had from the time it was the size of my fist as a cutting or layer.
Both this, and the Seka shared the same porch, but not side by side.
On the opposite side of the house is another golden that has no browning like this one whatsoever, just Winter kisses.
I've had these 2 golden ones long enough to know this one, goes well beyond typical Winter colour.
Perhaps a disease IS culprit. ALL the Seka at PCB looked awful, the one I got looked best really
but yes, did have browning in the tips when I got it.

 

[Vance Wood]

View attachment 279792 View attachment 279793 View attachment 279794 View attachment 279795
This is a golden variety I've had from the time it was the size of my fist as a cutting or layer.
Both this, and the Seka shared the same porch, but not side by side.
On the opposite side of the house is another golden that has no browning like this one whatsoever, just Winter kisses.
I've had these 2 golden ones long enough to know this one, goes well beyond typical Winter colour.
Perhaps a disease IS culprit. ALL the Seka at PCB looked awful, the one I got looked best really
but yes, did have browning in the tips when I got it.

How often do you water your tree? Are the branches that you are having trouble with also the branches you have just wired?