Satsuki Azalea "Chinzan" Repot

[Andrew Robson]

Final thought.

"Life without Turface is full of sweet birdsong and rainbows."

"Buying cheap or easily available soils simply because they are cheap and easily available will make all of that magnificence entirely moot. In bonsai, a finely ramified, healthy root system is everything."

"Not long ago I resisted teaching or writing in an emphatic manner, to avoid upsetting people or to avoid arguments. But much like the concerns offered in my post Never Pinch Junipers!, I see so many weakened bonsai as a result of using Turface, Oil-Dri, and Profile that I have to speak. My main loyalty is to the trees. This is one area where cutting corners is really not the best way to go. Spend money on soil. If things like pumice, scoria, and akadama are not readily available, get it shipped and split the cost with friends. It’s not the lightest thing on the planet, but then thankfully it’s not lead, either."

Michael Hagedorn

http://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/

 

[fredman]

grow the trees in what they are supposed to grow in- DIRT!

I totally don't agree with that Eric. The biggest enemy of a feeder root is soggy soil. They just cant live in it. It stagnates the plant. The plant will do much better without the perched water table that "dirt" creates.

For anybody that's interested here is a link about the effects it has in container culture. Its written by a great man that I have a lot of respect for. Its a long write, but very interesting, as a base knowledge of what happens inside a pot...

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discus...soils-water-movement-and-retention-xxii?n=313

 

[fredman]

Is that a Korin

I really don't know which one it is Chuah. No the soil isn't compacted. Its new bonsai soil mixed with peat moss in there.

 

[fredman]

Peat moss works great for azaleas

Yeah I always mix it in with bonsai soil Eric. I have a few satsukis planted in the ground. I mixed in spades full around it when I planted it. It works well...

 

[johng]

What do I consider bad information? This. This is very bad information.

Why think for yourself when the information of what works has already been proven? I'll tell you a quick story. Boon recently told me that while he was visiting Thailand, the local bonsai enthusiasts there were using terrible soil, and were extremely hesitant to change. Every time someone collected a native Gardenia and put it in the soil, the tree would die. Boon had a brave student try and use his soil mix, and the tree lived, and not only lived, it's growing better than ever.

I'm not going to debate with you on something that is proven to work better. It's like climate change, there will always be deniers. If you choose to deny what experts in the satsuki field have proven to work, then go ahead. I'm going to listen to the experts. They've done all the thinking for me in this aspect!

Well Mr. shimsuki...how many bonsai professionals do you think are on this board?

Has it ever occured to you that the folks around here are hobbyists...hmmm...l wonder how that makes us different?

Why think for yourself? Did you really say that??? Seriously!! If that is what you honestly believe, you my friend are going places in this world! I bet mr. Jrob is so proud of you! Sounds like a Japanese company man!

I take it then that as a musician you don't write any of your own music or try anything experimental or even have your own style?? Surely by this point in time all the thinking has been done for you in that field??

Perhaps you could expand on the differences between bonsai professionals and hobbyists for us? It would be great if this was your own thinking and not parroting of boon, dave, or michael.

 

[Andrew Robson]

Well Mr. shimsuki...how many bonsai professionals do you think are on this board?

Has it ever occured to you that the folks around here are hobbyists...hmmm...l wonder how that makes us different?

Why think for yourself? Did you really say that??? Seriously!! If that is what you honestly believe, you my friend are going places in this world! I bet mr. Jrob is so proud of you! Sounds like a Japanese company man!

I take it then that as a musician you don't write any of your own music or try anything experimental or even have your own style?? Surely by this point in time all the thinking has been done for you in that field??

Perhaps you could expand on the differences between bonsai professionals and hobbyists for us? It would be great if this was your own thinking and not parroting of boon, dave, or michael.

I said "why think for yourself" only in regards to soil, which is something that professionals have over the years, already figured out. We don't think for ourselves in other facts of bonsai. Wiring makes better trees, should we reconsider that and think to ourself about it? Decandling black pines makes better pines, should we reconsider that and think to ourself about it? Cut paste helps seal wounds faster and prevent rot, should we reconsider that and think to ourself about it?

There are plenty of things we should be thinking to ourself about in bonsai. How to style a tree is one of them. What pot to put it in is another. What trees to grow in our collection is one too. Proven horticultural facts should not be, and the fact that they are debated is why the majority of the best people doing bonsai are not on these forums.

In music, this is very similar actually, so thanks for bringing it up. If you do what works and work hard, you succeed, if you go against what works, you fail. For example, I teach my flute students at Yale to practice difficult passages slowly, because that's been proven by a majority of professional musicians to have extreme benefits. I have some students who do this and some who just don't. Guess who is more successful?

My father is very proud, thank you for bringing him up too. The main focus of our collection has always been growing healthy trees. I think that's something we should all strive for in bonsai. You don't need to be a professional to grow healthy trees. That is the difference. Professionals should have spectacular trees that are all healthy, hobbyists should have a range of levels of trees that are all healthy. Our collection does not look like Hagedorn's, but the trees are just as healthy....

 

[coh]

I did, and I also know that they would have been even healthier in a mix like boon's or aoki.

I said earlier, maples grow okay in turface, but there are much better options. Any respectable bonsai professional in America will tell you this. They know from experience traveling and seeing trees growing in bad soil. Boon said that the biggest problem he sees in bonsai all over the world is trees growing in bad soil. Yet, we still debate this to death on forums such as this. These forums are great for many reasons, but they spread bad information like viruses

So how exactly do you "know that they would have been even healthier in a mix like boon's or aoki?" Oh, right, Boon said.

I've got some experiments going with trident maples, potted in a variety of mixes. Some turface based, some "Boon mix", some potting soil. So far, after 2 years I'm not seeing much difference in the plants, though admittedly the sample size is rather small (16 plants).

And the trees I'm referring to in the National Exhibition were pines that had been grown in turface for a couple of decades...and they looked pretty damn healthy!

But Boon said!

 

[augustine]

I bought several cuttings from Julian Adams about 3 years ago and they grow very well here in Central MD. Inexpensive way to buy and still get to enjoy the beautiful flowers from my Chinzan and Kakuo varieties.

These are young and grow very vigorously. My approach is successful and differs from the Kreutz and Boon method. Potting media is pumice based with some grit, perlite, sterile compost and maybe some sphagnum moss. Soil is acidified with organic sulphur. Watered and fertilized heavily using chem ferts, organix and fish/seaweed emulsion. I enjoy the flowers every year but do thin the buds to avoid multiple flowers at any given point. They grow like gangbusters and actually I couldn't imagine them growing any stronger. Ovaries are removed after flowering. Roots fill the pot every year. I thin the foliage and branches and wire in the fall.

(I question one important point. If the flower buds are trimmed after they develop, hasn't the plant already expended the energy of making flowers?)

I accept the methods espoused by Andrew but my way works just fine also. I'm sure other ways work well also. My soil works just fine. All this being said I am open to other ways and could try different things in the future. I've met and talked with 4 bonsai pros that use a combo of turface, grit and organic material with excellent results. These folks are well known in the bonsai community.

This is only the view of one that doesn't travel in the elite bonsai circles but I've found that one learns the most in life with an open mind. Dogma, truth sometimes overlap.

Thanks and best to all. Andrew, I am glad you are contributing.

Augustine

 

[johng]

That is all great but I suspect you may need to think a little deeper my friend...open your mind...try to move past thinking as a professional and begin thinking from the perspective of a hobbyist...the folks on this board!

How are professionals and hobbyists different?
of course we all want healthy trees...that's a given!

As a hobbyist what do I have to do differently than a professional to have healthy trees?
At what point do you have to make concessions from the ideal, and what are those concessions, due to the limitations of having a life, family, career, differing climates, etc...

For example...If you tell someone to put all their trees in Kanuma and they are unable to give the proper care with this choice due to being a hobbyists and their trees die...was it good advice?

 

[GrimLore]

Grimmy

 

[Stan Kengai]

That is all great but I suspect you may need to think a little deeper my friend...open your mind...try to move past thinking as a professional and begin thinking from the perspective of a hobbyist...the folks on this board!

How are professionals and hobbyists different?
of course we all want healthy trees...that's a given!

As a hobbyist what do I have to do differently than a professional to have healthy trees?
At what point do you have to make concessions from the ideal, and what are those concessions, due to the limitations of having a life, family, career, differing climates, etc...

For example...If you tell someone to put all their trees in Kanuma and they are unable to give the proper care with this choice due to being a hobbyists and their trees die...was it good advice?

John, You should know by now not to argue with a SOB (student of Boon). They are like the early American Christian missionaries here to save us Native People from our savage ways. And shame on you for interjecting common sense and real-world limitations into the conversation. That's just not fair.

 

[Andrew Robson]

I've said everything I've felt needed to be said, and I respectfully disagree. For the record, Boon has never personally told me anything about turface, Michael has. I would find it very hard to argue with anything in his blog post about it. In my experience, hanging around and mimicing what the experts are doing is the best and fastest way to get better in a certain field. Want to get better at bonsai? Then listen to people like Michael, Boon, and Dave, because they know what they are taking about. There is a reason that many of the trees in the artisans cup were from students of Michael and Boon. I don't recall the exact number, but I remember John Kirby telling me that Boon's students had about 15 trees in the show. I've never worked with Ryan, but I know his trees stay far away from Turface.

Back to this specific thread, I use kanuma because I have seen the amazing results on hundreds and hundreds of trees I have repotted with Dave, and seen what it does to the roots. I've also seen the roots on hundreds of azaleas not in kanuma, and know what their roots look like. I've seen the results personally, and I'm keeping my Satsukis in kanuma.

 

[Andrew Robson]

John, You should know by now not to argue with a SOB (student of Boon). They are like the early American Christian missionaries here to save us Native People from our savage ways. And shame on you for interjecting common sense and real-world limitations into the conversation. That's just not fair.

I'm sorry, but why the heck is there such a hatred for Boon on this forum? I would argue that nobody has done more in this generation to improve the level of American bonsai than Boon. Common sense is listening to the people who have the most experience and best trees. If anyone here spent time with Boon, or just applied his simple techniques, your trees would improve. They would get better. And you would finally realize why Boon's students have some of the best and healthiest trees in the country.

 

[Stan Kengai]

I don't think anyone on here has a problem with Boon. I don't. It's his self-righteous students that raise the ire of this clan. They all seem to want to convert nonSOBs from their "evil ways".

 

[Adair M]

Stan, I suppose SOBs advocate doing things "Boon's way", is because Boon teaches us the same way as he was taught when he studied with Kamiya.

It goes back to the apprentice system in Japan. The master wants his apprentices to wire and style trees the same way he would.

Consider: a client brings a tree in to be styled. Naturally, he wants it done by the master, not the apprentice. But the Master has too much to do to be able to do all the work himself. So, he trains his apprentices to work the tree the same way he would. The apprentice works the client's tree. When he's done, the Master reviews the work, and makes whatever minor changes he deems necessary.

Do you suppose that Kimura treated Ryan any differently? I think not.

I also think it shows the difference between the Japanese culture, and the Anerican culture. The Japanese are pretty much all conformists. For the most part they don't want to stand out and be different than everyone else. American's prize independance and self reliance.

So, that brings on the "Do it Boon's way" vs "think for yourself" fights.

I will say that Boon has really healthy trees.

 

[coh]

I will say that Boon has really healthy trees.

I'm sure he does! And so do a lot of people who don't work with boon and don't use Boon mix.

Look, no one is coming on here and claiming that kanuma doesn't work (at least I don't think anyone has said that), or that Boon mix doesn't work. They are good soils. The problem is that people come on with statements like "Turface = Bad for everything" which is b.s. People have been using turface-based mixes probably longer than the guy who wrote that (Andrew) has been alive, and the simple fact that trees have been thriving in those mixes, and have won awards in national shows, proves that it is a viable soil component. As with most things, the key is learning to work with your soil mix, whatever it is, in your environment.

 

[JoeR]

I was going to buy kanuma for my azaleas but after hearing that it breaks down to mush in a season (for some people) I am somewhat worried. Its not the wettest here but boy in the summer it gets rainy, humid and hot!

 

[Andrew Robson]

I don't think anyone on here has a problem with Boon. I don't. It's his self-righteous students that raise the ire of this clan. They all seem to want to convert nonSOBs from their "evil ways".

Here are just a few of Boon's students.

Michael Hagedorn: American Bonsai Artist and former Bonsai Potter living in Portland, OR. Founder of the Portland Bonsai Village. Apprenticed in Japan with Suzuki after studying with Boon. Teaches hundreds of students himself in Portland and across the country. Had a tree in the artisans cup and several of his students had trees in the show. http://crataegus.com

Matt Reel: American Bonsai Artist living in Portland, OR. Portland Bonsai Village member. Also studied in Japan with Suzuki after studying with Boon. Matt is currently traveling the country doing bonsai and teaching students in Portland. https://reelbonsai.wordpress.com

Jonas Dupuich: Founder of Bonsai Tonight. Founding member of Bay Island Bonsai. Probably has close to a thousand (if not more) amazing blog posts and freely shares great information. Bonsai Tonight is one of, if not the very best, collections of bonsai information on the internet. http://bonsaitonight.com

Eric Schrader: President of the Bonsai Society of San Francisco and writer of the Phutu Bonsai blog. Also a B-Nut poster. Has one of the best bonsai blogs on the Internet and is growing some of the best black pine I've seen grown from seed in this country. http://www.phutu.com

Jim Gremel: Bonsai and Ceramics artist. Jim has grown some of the best shimpakus and in the country, and had one on display at the Cup. In addition to making fine bonsai and ceramics, Jim produces the best copper wire that I've used for bonsai. In addition to all this Jim teaches as well. http://www.jimgremel.com/bonsaihomepage.html

John Kirby: President of the Hartford Bonsai Society and Dean of College of Environment and Life Sciences of the University of Rhode Island. Leads a study group at his house for bonsai enthusiasts in the Connecticut area. Recently gave a black pine workshop at the ABS show in DC and is an avid teacher of bonsai. He has one of the best collections of trees and pots that I've seen.

The Smiths: Howard and Sylvia are medical professionals living in Dallas, Texas. They are active members in the Dallas Bonsai Society, and are a huge force in Texas bonsai. They are avid teaa http://bonsaismiths.net

Tyler Sherrod: Apprentice at Suzuki's nursery in Japan. Studied with Boon before his apprenticeship. https://tylersherrodbonsai.wordpress.com

Peter Tea: American bonsai artist. Peter studied with Boon before his apprenticeship at Aichien Bonsai Garden. Now Peter is traveling the US teaching bonsai. https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com

 

[Andrew Robson]

I was going to buy kanuma for my azaleas but after hearing that it breaks down to mush in a season (for some people) I am somewhat worried. Its not the wettest here but boy in the summer it gets rainy, humid and hot!

Kanuma will do just fine in NC. Satsukis love rainy, humid, and hot. Saint Louis can have many of those same qualities, and I've never seen kamuma break down. Just cover with a fine layer of yamagoki or sphagnum and you will be fine. I would purchase it from Dave http://satsukibonsai-en.com

 

[JoeR]

Kanuma will do just fine in NC. Satsukis love rainy, humid, and hot. Saint Louis can have many of those same qualities, and I've never seen kamuma break down. Just cover with a fine layer of yamagoki or sphagnum and you will be fine. I would purchase it from Dave http://satsukibonsai-en.com

That's the place I was looking at. I had it bookmarked for a while but I don't know what size I need yet.