Satsuki Azalea "Chinzan" Repot

[Andrew Robson]

How are professionals and hobbyists different?
of course we all want healthy trees...that's a given!

I believe the difference is in the artistry, not the horticulture. There is no reason that we all can't have trees just as healthy as the trees in the gardens of the professionals. After all, just about all of them or their students share the basic horticultural techniques they practice with others.

As a hobbyist what do I have to do differently than a professional to have healthy trees?

You shouldn't have to do anything differently. Trees are simple, they just need good soil, proper light requirements for the species, and the right amount of water to grow healthy and strong. The professionals have already told us what to do horticulturally to have the best trees, its whether you want to listen to them or not is the question.

At what point do you have to make concessions from the ideal, and what are those concessions, due to the limitations of having a life, family, career, differing climates, etc...

For example...If you tell someone to put all their trees in Kanuma and they are unable to give the proper care with this choice due to being a hobbyists and their trees die...was it good advice?

Regarding life, family and career, bonsai is a hobby that takes time. They aren't just trees, they are more like pets that require constant care. If you want to get involved with bonsai but don't want to put in the daily attention the trees need, you should stick to orchids or other house plants. Or adapt to make this possible. Have an automatic watering system if you travel for work or can't water when the trees need it and etc. Regarding climate, grow trees that can survive in your area. For example don't try growing Japanese white pine in florida. However black pine take the heat so that would be a good choice, in addition to lots of tropical species.

The only proper care for an azalea in kanuma (with a thin later of yamagoki or sphagnum moss on top) is water when the tree needs it and a bit of fertilizer every once in a while. Satsukis need about 40 days under 40 degrees Fahrenheit to be happy, so if you live in a warmer climate, find an azalea that can tolerate warmer heat. As far as I know, there is not a place you can grow a strong satsuki that you can't grow the tree in kanuma.

 

[Robert E Holt]

With all this talk about growing Azaleas in Kanuma, can someone answer a question? How do I determine what size to use? I have seen it listed as "Small", "Medium", and "Large" grain. What is the right size for Azaleas and how do I decide?

 

[Adair M]

My thoughts exactly. If one wants growth, remove them as soon as they formed.
As for me.... Satsuki is all about their beautiful flowers. To me its about the journey I'm taking with my plant. Its whole existence (like us and animals alike) is to produce what its evolved to do... !!! I figure who the hell am I to deny it that one wish, it desires mostly, in favour of a little bit of growth, (I desire) that will mostly be shortened in any case....??? The professional growers will no doubt disagree strongly. They have a different focus and journey.
Anyway nice post Augustine

That's why I removed the flower buds in June! They were tiny, less than 1/4 inch. I had to use a very slender pair of scissors to get in there to find them and cut them out.

Yes, satsuki are all about the flowers. Bonsai is a test of patience. Satsuki are like the devil on your left shoulder, whispering "let it bloom" in your left ear, while the bonsai master is whispering, "let it grow" in your right ear.

Interesting: in Japan, the Bonsai enthusiasts don't mix with the Satsuki bonsai enthusiasts. Two separate groups. Kind of like Chevvy enthusiasts, and Ford guys. They both like cars, but...

 

[Andrew Robson]

Interesting: in Japan, the Bonsai enthusiasts don't mix with the Satsuki bonsai enthusiasts. Two separate groups. Kind of like Chevvy enthusiasts, and Ford guys. They both like cars, but...

Very true!

 

[Andrew Robson]

With all this talk about growing Azaleas in Kanuma, can someone answer a question? How do I determine what size to use? I have seen it listed as "Small", "Medium", and "Large" grain. What is the right size for Azaleas and how do I decide?

Generally, small is for shohin, medium is for medium size trees, and large is for the big boys. There can be exceptions however, but that is generally how it works!

 

[Robert E Holt]

Generally, small is for shohin, medium is for medium size trees, and large is for the big boys. There can be exceptions however, but that is generally how it works!

Thanks, I would have thought medium would be ideal for both: afterall, you're trying to encourage fine root growth. I thought the larger size would have too much air space and allow the roots to dry out.

 

[Eric Group]

I totally don't agree with that Eric. The biggest enemy of a feeder root is soggy soil. They just cant live in it. It stagnates the plant. The plant will do much better without the perched water table that "dirt" creates.

For anybody that's interested here is a link about the effects it has in container culture. Its written by a great man that I have a lot of respect for. Its a long write, but very interesting, as a base knowledge of what happens inside a pot...

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discus...soils-water-movement-and-retention-xxii?n=313

I didn't mean "dirt" in the sense of field soil. I was referring to a more organic "potting soil" type of mix if container growing with the intent of letting it grow out and get bigger/ thicker... The one time real "dirt" is ok is when you plant them in the ground...

I feel like Peat is a great growi medium because it absorbs water, stays just wet enough to keep roots hydrated without staying all "mucky" and it is light an airy without needing a large gritty particle size... Really good stuff for growing trees/ plants! I suppose that is why it is the primary ingredient in ever potting soil I have ever bought. Absolutely nothing wrong wit it as a potting medium, again until you are really working the roots down to get them into that final size for the right Bonsai pot... Then you might get better results with more inorganic mixes.

I was talking about this primarily as advice for the guy whose trees were struggling. When a tree is in fading health, the best recommendation is to get it into a soil like the pro mix I was describing... Some older books recommend planting them in pure sand though I do not think that would be wise for an Azalea....

 

[fredman]

I didn't mean "dirt" in the sense of field soil

Ha Ha... yeah I know you didn't mean that Eric. I should've used a better word to...
I'm a convert to a more open soil for growing on plants in containers. When I lived in South Africa I only used bought potting soil. The climate is fantastic there and the plants grow fast. Mostly using up the water before the bottom area gets soggy......have i said MOSTLY
When I moved to NZ with a wetter and colder climate, I hit problems. The growing season is shorter. The plants just didn't grow as they should. I was almost ready to give up and take up some other hobby, when I came across the forum i linked above. I made myself the soil he calls the 5.1.1...
5 parts composted bark (fines sifted out)
1 part pumice (lots around here and very cheap, so I use it for everything)
1 part peat moss
That worked beautifully. The plants started growing much better. The problem all along was the PWT (perched water table). The feeder roots suffocates in the soggy soil and the plant goes into shock. It doesn't die (mostly) but sure doesn't have the life it can have either....

Here is an example. This plant hates its roots in soggy soil. It dies easily from that. The soil its in isn't bad but I don't want to take any chances. I recess it into another pot to illuminate any potential water table.

 

[Eric Group]

I did, and I also know that they would have been even healthier in a mix like boon's or aoki.

I said earlier, maples grow okay in turface, but there are much better options. Any respectable bonsai professional in America will tell you this. They know from experience traveling and seeing trees growing in bad soil. Boon said that the biggest problem he sees in bonsai all over the world is trees growing in bad soil. Yet, we still debate this to death on forums such as this. These forums are great for many reasons, but they spread bad information like viruses

Now, I am not getting down on you, or getting offended... Nor am I trying to start a "turface war" here, because honestly I moved on from Turface and use primarily Akdama, pumice and lava as my bonsai mix these days... Kind of still trying to determine if there is a noticeable difference... I'd say that "Boone's mix" is certainly a superior mix for Junipers... Not sure about deciduous trees yet...

I do want to point out that it seems you are saying at one point here that certain substrates are far superior to others, and you seem to imply that only one way is the best/ acceptable way... then later you state that "trees are simple.." And they just need good dirt, sun... Personally, to me that seems like you are saying two different things. I am not disagreeing with you on either though(as odd as that may sound) as I find Akadama and those fancy Japanese Bonsai substrates to be great for trees... But I have found multiple other substrates you can grow very healthy trees in. I have some super healthy azaleas in my yard that have never SEEN Kanuma before.... I guess what I am getting at is that trees ARE SIMPLE! They don't get to chose what they grow in, they are not like my two year old who asks me for milk and then cries because it isn't CHOCOLATE milk... Trees just drink the damn milk we give them! As long as the substrate allows for proper nutrient and gas exchange and retains the proper moisture levels, the trees don't care if it is peat moss, Akadama or ground up newspaper.... I think that is why these soil discussions become so heated! People find a suitable substrate that works for them, grow happy trees in it for years and then they feel like some "SOB (sons of Boone?) is telling me my trees are crap because I ain't using the same kinda dirt he uses? Eff that!!!"
People can get a little touchy about that sort of stuff. Doesn't mean you were wrong... Nothing to really apologize for... Just kind of the dynamic here. I like turface personally and use it even in my "potting mix" as a grit component making up about 15-20% of the mix... I used it as a primary part of my bonsai mix for a couple years and had good success with it in that capacity as well. I know a lot of people who have had similar results with it and it is hard to convince someone that a product that works for them is not good to use. I think that is what caused some push back here.

 

[Chuah]

The discussions on kanuma and other mediums have really stirred up a lot of passions. I just took out a Japanese horticultural book by Machiya Kojima of the Chiba University, and looked into the chapter on peat moss. The following is a short excerpt from the introductory section of the chapter:

"Canada has the world's largest peat land, 270 million hectares, next is Russia 170 million hectares, Alaska has 100 million hectares, Finland and Sweden etc. also have 35 million hectares. There is a vast reserve of peat lands. It is estimated that each year, additional 5,000,000 cubic meters of peat moss are deposited in those cold and wet regions. Based on current usage, there is no fear that we will run out of these resources.

Japan also has peat land in Honshu and Hokkaido, but Honshu peat disintegrates too rapidly, only the Hokkaido peat could be used. Even so, it is of low quality. As such, mid to high quality peat moss are imported from Northern Europe, Canada, Poland, Russia etc."

Basically Kojima said Japan does not produce good horticultural quality peat moss, and they import peat moss.

I always stay away from online bonsai soil discussion, as this always turn out to be too passionate. A bonsai friend once said: "When a person is trimming bonsai, he is serene and his blood pressure is at its lowest" I intend to stay that way, LOL.

You can come out with your own theories, hypothesis, conclusions. Good luck!

Note 1 hectar equals 2.47 acres according to Google conversion for us in the US.

 

[Adair M]

Eric, Boon uses the same basic mix for deciduous trees, too. If you feel you want the soil to retain more water, increase the proportion of akadama. Maybe 2 parts akadama, one part lava, one part pumice.

 

[sorce]

I don't know how we can go so many pages of this soil talk without bringing up the fact that there is a guy in Germany who, I think knows what he is doing, and he doesn't use any of the stuff we are talking about!

Now that it's in the open, that I killed my tree from Judy. I can honestly say, that upon seeing the "Boon Mix" in the pot, I can see how it works in Judy's well protected winter grounds.....
But I am 80% sure I can not use it in my unprotected winter situation.

I read the Turface article, and believed the BS!
Osoyoung opened my mind.
I won't use it. But you can't help but eat the proof pudding.

The best soil is whatever gives you the growth you need to acheive your goals.

8822 for life!

Sorce

 

[augustine]

Andrew,

No need to apologize - your opinions are welcome.

I think the main point of the argument is that top shelf results can be obtained with non-Japanese substrates. I agree with your statement that we can all enjoy trees as healthy as those of the pros. Absolutely - my trees are in excellent health without kanuma or akadama.

I have a Japanese yew in Boon's mix and the growth is not superior (however I will wait until I see root development before forming an opinion and realize that one example is not conclusive). I can say that I get excellent root growth with the use of a large percentage of pumice in the mix.

Thanks to all

 

[Andrew Robson]

I can say that I get excellent root growth with the use of a large percentage of pumice in the mix.

Pumice is something we should all be using in my opinion. It's a dream particle for bonsai soil, and it's local (although can still be a little expensive to ship across the country).

 

[Adair M]

Augustine,

Pumice is good stuff. One of the best things to put newly collected material into.

As an aside, many people experience disappointment the first time they try Boon mix. Or any new inorganic bonsai soil. I'm not saying this applies to you, I wasn't there when the tree was potted into Boon mix.

Here's the problem:

Open, inorganic soil is so open and different that roots may not extend into it from a rootball that is tightly packed. It's almost as if they hit the colander, and the hit air, so they don't continue to grow. The edge of the old rootball acts as a barrier to the roots.

So, what do we do?

When repotting, be sure to tease out about 1/2 inch of small feeder roots around the outside of rootball. So that it looks fuzzy. Now when you backfill with the new soil, the roots will already be in the new soil, so it won't act as a barrier.

Don't tease out roots on the bottom of the rootball. Cut it flat and as smooth as you can get it. No fuzz. Why? We don't want roots to grow down. We want them to grow out wide, radially. So, in this case the "barrier effect" works to our benefit. It discourages downward roots.

Another approach, and if this is the first time potting into inorganic open soil perhaps an even better approach, is to "half bare root" the tree. Prepare the rootball as described above, the go an additional step to bare root one side of the rootball. Do the weakest half. Then when you backfill, half the rootball will be in new soil. Be sure to make the other side fuzzy. A year, or maybe two, later do the other side.

 

[VAFisher]

For what it's worth, Julian Adams grows everything in Turface, and I would say that he's a pretty well respected pro. I've been to his garden twice and have seen his trees - and that's good enough for me.

 

[Andrew Robson]

For what it's worth, Julian Adams grows everything in Turface, and I would say that he's a pretty well respected pro. I've been to his garden twice and have seen his trees - and that's good enough for me.

I've never heard of Julian Adams before... time to break out google!

 

[coh]

Julian Adams is the one I was referring to earlier...he has had trees win major awards in the National Exhibition. His mix is 70-80% turface (the rest is granite and bark or peat). He's been using that mix for a few decades.

 

[Adair M]

Coh, don't you live in Rochester? What mix does Bill Valavanis use?

 

[coh]

Coh, don't you live in Rochester? What mix does Bill Valavanis use?

Maybe Bill will see this and answer as I'm not sure...the mix he sells (which I'm pretty sure he uses) has changed somewhat over the past 5 years. Initially it was a mix of haydite (or a haydite-like component), bark and another aggregate (but not pumice or lava). A more recent batch I got had turface as a component (I'm pretty sure), some kind of small round stone component, and bark. I'll take a look at the labels next time I'm out in the barn, but it's definitely not Boon mix.

I do know that in the 4-5 years that I've known Bill and been involved in bonsai, that he is adding more akadama to his mixture. Initially I don't think he was using it at all, now he is adding a decent amount. But again, I'd rather he weigh in if he cares to as I don't know the exact ratios and how it varies for different species.

Bill, you out there? Please correct me if I'm wrong!I know he's heading off to Japan tomorrow so he may not see this.

Chris

Edit to add -

Adair, I have labels from 3 different mixes I've obtained from Bill over the last 4-5 years.

Oldest - 35% "diabase granite", 35% haydite, 30% bark
Middle - 35% quartz, 35% turface, 30% bark
Newest - 40% haydite, 30% quartz, 30% bark