Results of Joshua New Talent Contest !

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Wish there was a way to standardize the starting stock a bit more so everyone was on more equal footing at the beginning.

There were NO junk trees in this lot. If anything THIS is the standard we should have at all of them... and sadly it isn't the usual case. Like anything which is showing a great level of competence... you can't be just good at dealing with one thing... you have to be able to do it all. You'll get there... you probably are largely there already. Be sure to work on getting a body of examples recorded to be able to submit as your application trees.

V

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

You forgot the part where you ended up working in the middle of a lake, and half of us worried we'd be electrocuted because the freaking rain came down the ONE day in Cali I didn't want it to. lol

What a day! You were the sleeper for me... I wasn't sure how it would go between your tree and mine. I played the 'game' correctly.... Ryan had home field advantage and a style that resonates there strongly... and you just did beautifully with or without all the 'stuff' the rest of us had. I expected it would come down to the three of us, but I wasn't sure how it would land.



V

 

[coh]

Leading up to the event I gotta say, I went out and bought about 15 nursery
Junipers and practice day in and day out. Not so much to improve my abilities,
But instead to be prepared for the stress and the travel, so when I got there,
Instead of thinking, I would just do!

I would definitely do something like that to help prepare, think it would help one get an idea of how long the process might take, how much time to devote to various tasks, etc.

 

[MACH5]

Well hell.... don't listen to me for God's sake. lol

I apologize, truly... it was a knee jerk reaction to a word I generally regard as insulting, to someone whom I have recently gone through a protracted stressful event with. I feel very protective of all of them.

I can't agree with your opinion in regards to that particular descriptive, but I ought not to have added a slander to it, that was poorly done by me.

Humbly,

V

No worries at all. I completely understand. Thanks!

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Mach..... as an aside... I only just heard about your win at the USNBE... well done! That's a thing!

Thanks for being gracious... lol

V

 

[MACH5]

Thanks Vic I appreciate it! No hard feelings at all. We are all very passionate about this amazing art as well as the friends we meet along the way. I do understand. The internet often does get in the way of proper communication.


All is well with us and thank you again!

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

lol to clarify... You had the most finished wiring.

I had the most finished deadwood.....

Ryan had the most finished structure.

Remember that comment I made about how I could see what people's strengths were in the competition? It was because I could see it in your wiring, as I could see it in Ryan's prep-work for his structure... and there was my carving - and me looking like a beaver covered in sawdust.

I agree about the larger post you also made... that some words are bandied about with little elaboration. If it had been someone OTHER than MACH or a small handful who have the chops to make critical observations based on experience, I would say it's just because that person didn't like it and they think it makes them look smart. There are trees that do in fact look contrived... someone trying to hard to emulate something that doesn't really exist in a tree and it's being forced upon it... having seen your tree from multiple angles, and it's elegant lines.... I know it's not contrived... though the photos don't do any justice to these lovely beasts... so we have to remember that. We had the stabs and pricks of hostile needles, and the feel of rough bark beneath our hands... felt the fragile branches beneath our fingers only too happy to bend until they decided to not. Our perspective is different. Our seeing is tied to a deeper knowledge. Even as my appreciation of MACH's prize winning tree is only 2-D deep to what is surely a sublime beauty full of subtly and feeling. I KNOW it's worthy... I just haven't experienced the seeing of it in such a way to connect beyond the basic appreciation of it's beauty.

V

 

[aframe]

To start this might seem as a bit of a negative post but it actually isn't..
Just pointing some things out.

I think judging these things is very difficult.
Judges have to look at the end result, the work done, techniques used, branch placement, design and future development of the tree etc etc.
They all have flaws and all have really good things.
However Imo this contest was about styling bonsai in a certain amount of time and who had the most finished tree.
Not looking to much at future development.

That bothers me.
First off all I don't think there should be any competitions in bonsai at all as it is an art form were everyone says patience is the pace we should have.
I've entered one myself and didn't like the concept at all.
Second with the time pressure in these events people tend to overwork trees and health is put second place because the judges want to see end results.
In Europe they use to do it like this too, but too many work was done and trees didn't survive. That is not how you create bonsai so they chanced the rules.
Shari's, bends and pruning are ok but not at the same time because the tree simply won't have enough energy to recover both and grow etc when shari's are placed random.
It needs to have time to redirect their live veins.
As for bending it is really stressful for a tree and sucks up a lot of energy repairing all the little cracks made in the proces.
And there is also no balancing of the roots and foliage as they can't be repotted at that time.
In a lot of cases it will die back later certain areas and gone is the image the tree was judged on.

Also I need to add that looking at the time given I really think the results (not all of them) could have been much better.
I saw it was from morning till evening? That is a lot of time.
In that amount of time all trees should be detail wired like the 3th one.
So I think judging should definitely be done with future development in mind, because bonsai is all about working towards a long term goal and healthy trees. And as they say it is never finished.

A new talent shouldn't be judged on what he/she can do with a tree in a couple of hours, but what one can do with it in a couple of years than you really can judge someones skill.


However still I think you guys did a great job!

I'm having trouble identifying your point of:

• This contest is about styling but it shouldn't be 'cause bonsai is all about long term goals and healthy trees
• or that you don't like bonsai competitions but you participate in them
• or that you're trying to share how much you know about horticulture by explaining the stress caused by styling, in a bonsai styling competition thread.
• And that, not being a participant in this contest but you were able to assess that the participants had ample time and the results should have been better, but in the same breath say new talent shouldn't be judged on what one can do in a couple of hours. So you've judged their results, yet you've denounce the judging process.

The only thing I was able to take away from your post is "I could have done better"

 

[aframe]

Wasn't trying to insult... but, was a little confused by the whole statment as well, it seems to
Cover just about every point of view possible, thus the reason I asked if he
Was a politician

Sorry boss, I was talking to Chris.

 

[0soyoung]

... If it had been someone OTHER than MACH or a small handful who have the chops to make critical observations ...

This echoes that shallow, childish thing that no one can criticize unless they can do better – ‘Oh yah, let’s see you do better!’

I still find Mach5’s ‘contrived’ criticism puzzling. On one hand I ask, isn’t bonsai inherently a contrivance? Excepting Dan Robinson and some of Walter Pall’s work, aren’t all bonsai contrivances? I mean, real trees aren’t that way. They don’t have nicely manicured canopies. Wild junipers don’t have nicely sanded smooth live veins and lime sulfured deadwood. Etc.

So, maybe Mach5 meant the image was inartistic or so common an image that it has become trite – I really don’t know. For a while I thought maybe ‘you artist types’ use the word in a different way than I do, but then a little firestorm erupted – what a relief for me (i.e., I’m maybe not so far outside as I was thinking). And now we are at this point of being all apologetic to Mach5 and defensively critical of the artistically challenged being unworthy. But, I think Mach5 deserved the criticism precisely because he has the artistic/creative chops to say something substantive instead of just labeling it ‘contrived’.

 

[Smoke]

Interesting comments, all

some confusing, some trivial, some semantically boring, but interesting none the less.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

By the way... despite the excellent styling of trees 2, 3, and 5...

The tree I'd most like to own: tree 4

I would redesign it rather dramatically. I hope I am not hurting someone's feelings. But wow... that trunk.

 

[M. Frary]

Every so often I think, maybe some day I'd like to participate in one of these. But seeing the raw stock you had there...I realize I'm nowhere near ready.

Wish there was a way to standardize the starting stock a bit more so everyone was on more equal footing at the beginning.

How about 1 gallon home depot nana procumbens? That would level the playing field.

 

[Si Nguyen]

By the way... despite the excellent styling of trees 2, 3, and 5...

The tree I'd most like to own: tree 4

I would redesign it rather dramatically. I hope I am not hurting someone's feelings. But wow... that trunk.

Man, I was thinking the exact same thing just now!
I don't know who did tree#4, and I hope he/she doesn't mind, but here's how I would have done it, using only the 2 top branches. In general, for a new tree, I would usually chop almost everything off and start over. To me, trunk line ( after the nebari) is most important. So with tree #4, I would eliminate all divergent lines and keep the one most interesting line going for as long as possible. The front of the tree may be on the other side with this line though.
All cool trees! Congrats to everybody.

 

[Vance Wood]

It has been brought up in the past, in fact I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread; survivability is a critical issue that must be fulfilled. I don't care how good the art work has been, and of course that is great to see, but if in the end; a year from now, the tree is kindling then what has the art work profited? If the idea is to find the kind of talent that can teach the next generation the art of bonsai who is going to be assigned the task of keeping the tree alive after it has been run through the instant bonsai mil?

Frankly I don't know how that issue can be handled effectively. I suppose it is up to those with an interest is contracting an artist to look to that themselves. I think for the most part the work on these trees has been remarkable but there are a couple of them I would be seriously concerned about. I remember not too long ago the conversation on this forum was about the "Instant Bonsai" syndrome and how destructive that could be and now we seem to be embracing it. I know all the arguments I have made most of them a time or two myself. The idea here is to see what someone can accomplish with a piece of material but little or nothing is said about whether or not the tree can survive the process. I think people witnessing this kind of event must understand that sometimes these projects are doomed to drastic failure. I also know how destructive it can be for a club or organization to invest sizable sums of money obtaining material for workshops and demonstrations realizing that most of them are going to die.

 

[garywood]

It has been brought up in the past, in fact I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread; survivability is a critical issue that must be fulfilled. I don't care how good the art work has been, and of course that is great to see, but if in the end; a year from now, the tree is kindling then what has the art work profited? If the idea is to find the kind of talent that can teach the next generation the art of bonsai who is going to be assigned the task of keeping the tree alive after it has been run through the instant bonsai mil?

Frankly I don't know how that issue can be handled effectively. I suppose it is up to those with an interest is contracting an artist to look to that themselves. I think for the most part the work on these trees has been remarkable but there are a couple of them I would be seriously concerned about. I remember not too long ago the conversation on this forum was about the "Instant Bonsai" syndrome and how destructive that could be and now we seem to be embracing it. I know all the arguments I have made most of them a time or two myself. The idea here is to see what someone can accomplish with a piece of material but little or nothing is said about whether or not the tree can survive the process. I think people witnessing this kind of event must understand that sometimes these projects are doomed to drastic failure. I also know how destructive it can be for a club or organization to invest sizable sums of money obtaining material for workshops and demonstrations realizing that most of them are going to die.

Vance, I've looked at the photos at least 10 times and am curious which -couple- are in danger and why?

 

[Poink88]

Man, I was thinking the exact same thing just now!
I don't know who did tree#4, and I hope he/she doesn't mind, but here's how I would have done it, using only the 2 top branches. In general, for a new tree, I would usually chop almost everything off and start over. To me, trunk line ( after the nebari) is most important. So with tree #4, I would eliminate all divergent lines and keep the one most interesting line going for as long as possible. The front of the tree may be on the other side with this line though.
All cool trees! Congrats to everybody.

Awesome sketch Si! How I wish I can see the way you did.

I too think tree #4 is the best but was not maximized.

 

[Eric Group]

Here are the finished trees from the one day Joshua Roth New Talent styling competition.
Held this year in Sacramento California, at the GSBF /ABS Convention. There were 7
competitors, we all drew numbers which matched the tree we were to work on. We started
at 8 am and finished at 5 pm. The trees were San Jose Junipers.
Here are the first 5 finished trees...

View attachment 62744View attachment 62745View attachment 62746View attachment 62747View attachment 62748

Images 3 & 5 are the best in my eyes... Just skimmed your first two posts and looked at the pics before posting. I had read some of another thread Smoke started, but had no idea what people were referencing regarding the tree pics... Glad I found the thread! These are some good looking trees, and you all did a great job!

 

[Smoke]

It has been brought up in the past, in fact I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread; survivability is a critical issue that must be fulfilled. I don't care how good the art work has been, and of course that is great to see, but if in the end; a year from now, the tree is kindling then what has the art work profited? If the idea is to find the kind of talent that can teach the next generation the art of bonsai who is going to be assigned the task of keeping the tree alive after it has been run through the instant bonsai mil?

Frankly I don't know how that issue can be handled effectively. I suppose it is up to those with an interest is contracting an artist to look to that themselves. I think for the most part the work on these trees has been remarkable but there are a couple of them I would be seriously concerned about. I remember not too long ago the conversation on this forum was about the "Instant Bonsai" syndrome and how destructive that could be and now we seem to be embracing it. I know all the arguments I have made most of them a time or two myself. The idea here is to see what someone can accomplish with a piece of material but little or nothing is said about whether or not the tree can survive the process. I think people witnessing this kind of event must understand that sometimes these projects are doomed to drastic failure. I also know how destructive it can be for a club or organization to invest sizable sums of money obtaining material for workshops and demonstrations realizing that most of them are going to die.

What is the difference in you telling some smart ass on the net thats in your face to post up or shut up versus a real live bonsai convention where 8 contestants are going to actually show the crowd whos boss?

 

[Si Nguyen]

It has been brought up in the past, in fact I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread; survivability is a critical issue that must be fulfilled. I don't care how good the art work has been, and of course that is great to see, but if in the end; a year from now, the tree is kindling then what has the art work profited? If the idea is to find the kind of talent that can teach the next generation the art of bonsai who is going to be assigned the task of keeping the tree alive after it has been run through the instant bonsai mil?

Frankly I don't know how that issue can be handled effectively. I suppose it is up to those with an interest is contracting an artist to look to that themselves. I think for the most part the work on these trees has been remarkable but there are a couple of them I would be seriously concerned about. I remember not too long ago the conversation on this forum was about the "Instant Bonsai" syndrome and how destructive that could be and now we seem to be embracing it. I know all the arguments I have made most of them a time or two myself. The idea here is to see what someone can accomplish with a piece of material but little or nothing is said about whether or not the tree can survive the process. I think people witnessing this kind of event must understand that sometimes these projects are doomed to drastic failure. I also know how destructive it can be for a club or organization to invest sizable sums of money obtaining material for workshops and demonstrations realizing that most of them are going to die.

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Hi Vance, I don't think any of the work on these trees were drastic enough to cause any worry about their dying. If anything, I actually think most of the work were too conservative. I think all of these trees could have been a lot smaller or reduced even further.

One of the first lesson in bonsai is that the tree needs to be healthy before they could be chopped back. Coming from an experienced grower and provided in a professional bonsai setting such as this convention, these trees must have been in strong health. If they were not strong and healthy, I am pretty sure any one of the judges would have called a stop to the competition before it even began. To your point though, I think whoever bought these trees at the auction do need to hear a good lecture on how to care for the trees, in order not to kill them.