Pyracantha Air Layer

[HHC]

Hi,

Sorry, I had not wanted to derail your thread, I can continue this through PMs?

I’d simply say using a good substrate, akadama, kiryu, pumice, lava etc, they deal with water well so it’s difficult to over water, extremely easy to under water.

Ah yes, I was planning on mixing my own bonsai soil: 30% lava rock, 30% pine bark, 40% pumice, would this as a mix work in general - I assume then it would work for this occasion.

Yeh you’ve got a load of roots, I’d put the whole thing (don’t play with the roots or remove any of the current substrate) in to your pot and surround with whatever substrate you are gonna use

Yes, thank you, I thought I had some decent roots, the pot is quite large too so hoping there are many within it.

I can understand that dilemma or it staying wet and around, not being wet. I don’t honestly have an answer for that bit, I don’t know. Just keep an eye on watering, feel with finger to see how wet different parts are.

Okay yes, will bury it and forget its there, out of sight out of mind. I do wonder how this works, perhaps the open structure around the moss draws out the moisture, should I then not use pine bark in my mix?

Just let it grow on for a year. Then at a good time for repot, look at it properly, bare root if comfortable, remove big roots, etc etc.

Yes, I just hope to just get it to survive separation. The fun will begin next year (or year after) and I can put it into a shallower training pot (?), work on the nebari, and carve out the old trunk better. I plan to reduce its height by quite a bit to a section with very few live branches at the moment. Cutting it back in two stages (over two years?) and praying for some good ramification is my plan so far? Perhaps I could graft some branches on?

 

[ConorDash]

The forum is fine, in case any other passerby is able able to glean info from it too.
This was brought up in another place recently and answered by one of the recognised Bonsai experts, funny enough. Peter Warren.
I can't paste exactly what he said, as it is unfair to him but ill paraphrase:

When repotting the airlayer, which has been separated recently.. 2 considerations:
- Want to remove as much sphagnum as possible, because it will cause rot/cause water/oxygen issues
- want to keep as many delicate and fragile roots, as possible.

Trying to remove a lot of sphagnum, could cause more harm than good, as it may damage your roots, but also if you do nothing, they will start to be harmed by the sphagnum in a year or so.
In terms of next repot, yes, repot in Spring next year which is normal time.
He says if you can remove 80% of the moss in the first go, then by 2022, you could do a full root wash to remove it all.

So that's the answer to us both, when it comes to Sphagnum moss.

Ah yes, I was planning on mixing my own bonsai soil: 30% lava rock, 30% pine bark, 40% pumice, would this as a mix work in general - I assume then it would work for this occasion.

The substrate mixture, I'm not a great person to comment on this, perhaps post that in a separate forum. My next mixture is going to be 60-70% akadama and rest Pumice. Lava is also used but I don't see pine bark being used much. I tried using it myself, didn't help or hinder anything. If you know exactly why you are using that particular substrate, and that particular percentage then I'd say try it out, but I don't know particular's, so don't want to comment.

Yeah you can see plenty of roots, roots won't be a problem for you.

Yes, I just hope to just get it to survive separation. The fun will begin next year (or year after) and I can put it into a shallower training pot (?), work on the nebari, and carve out the old trunk better. I plan to reduce its height by quite a bit to a section with very few live branches at the moment. Cutting it back in two stages (over two years?) and praying for some good ramification is my plan so far? Perhaps I could graft some branches on?

I'd say next year in to something shallower yes, as long as you don't have to root prune to get it in the pot, as I probably wouldn't do this for a few years. I wouldn't do the major cut back next Spring, perhaps mid year next year after its shown its health, its grown since the repot and you can get a feel for how its reacting and how its coping. From that point onwards, its your judgement on whether its strong enough or not.
If you are trunk chopping, don't worry about ramification. A pyracantha will back bud well, that's no problem.

In this thread, the tree I was experimenting on, I am still going with it, slowly. Its now at its lowest point and next section I am working on, very slowly. In retrospect, if I knew more, I'd have chopped it down to its lowest point in the first 1-2 years, and saved myself 2 years.

 

[HHC]

This was brought up in another place recently and answered by one of the recognised Bonsai experts, funny enough. Peter Warren.
[...]
When repotting the airlayer, which has been separated recently.. 2 considerations:
- Want to remove as much sphagnum as possible, because it will cause rot/cause water/oxygen issues
- want to keep as many delicate and fragile roots, as possible.

Trying to remove a lot of sphagnum, could cause more harm than good, as it may damage your roots, but also if you do nothing, they will start to be harmed by the sphagnum in a year or so.
In terms of next repot, yes, repot in Spring next year which is normal time.
He says if you can remove 80% of the moss in the first go, then by 2022, you could do a full root wash to remove it all.

So that's the answer to us both, when it comes to Sphagnum moss.

Oh interesting, would you be able to share the post?
I am now slightly more worried than when I had never had an answer as I then assumed it was no issue. Especially as my root ball is now very populated (photos attached), so I am not sure if I'll be able to take much moss out. Hopefully the fact there are so many will mean they are stronger next year and I can do a better repotting job and remove some moss next spring.

The substrate mixture, I'm not a great person to comment on this, perhaps post that in a separate forum. My next mixture is going to be 60-70% akadama and rest Pumice. Lava is also used but I don't see pine bark being used much. I tried using it myself, didn't help or hinder anything. If you know exactly why you are using that particular substrate, and that particular percentage then I'd say try it out, but I don't know particular's, so don't want to comment.

Ah, I was staying away from Akadama as it came across that it is largely used in Japan due to its abundance, and the fact it breaks down made it less appealing. I read somewhere that pumice holds less water than Akadama, and that a mix of pumice and pine bark can be used to approximate Akadama.
Having just checked on the rootball and thinking it looked a bit dry (are orange roots okay?), I panicked a bit and ordered some Kaizen Bonsai No. 2 mix, I will send a follow up email once I have read their guide in full and order the other aggregates.

I am new to the forum, is there a big thread on this topic? I haven't got round to figuring out all the navigation.

I'd say next year in to something shallower yes, as long as you don't have to root prune to get it in the pot, as I probably wouldn't do this for a few years.

Okay, yes good to know. No root pruning for a few years. Your help has been so useful for setting realistic targets and timescales, thank you.

I wouldn't do the major cut back next Spring, perhaps mid year next year after its shown its health, its grown since the repot and you can get a feel for how its reacting and how its coping. From that point onwards, its your judgement on whether its strong enough or not.
If you are trunk chopping, don't worry about ramification. A pyracantha will back bud well, that's no problem.

Oh interesting, thought cutting back the trunk would put less strain on the roots, like removing leaves. Would you mind if I shared some pictures when I separate and pot it to ask for more specific advice? Was hoping to cut the trunk back as it is quite a large branch otherwise.

In this thread, the tree I was experimenting on, I am still going with it, slowly. Its now at its lowest point and next section I am working on, very slowly. In retrospect, if I knew more, I'd have chopped it down to its lowest point in the first 1-2 years, and saved myself 2 years.

So I can chop once I have proof of growth without remorse?

 

[HHC]

So I separated it today:




As you can see it is quite large as the branch I had wanted to air-layer was surrounded in dead branches and I thought it should remain attached to many live and leaved ones such that there would be energy coming in to get the energy to the to-be roots.
After cutting back the clingfilm/electric tape carapace I managed to get the container off the root ball. It was pretty dry and solid, reminded me of a weetabix, so I'm glad I cut it now and didn't wait longer. The moss didn't budge too much so I wasn't able to remove much of it at all without breaking too many of the roots, you can see its pretty full of roots, so at least there's that positive. I guess, god-willing, I can sort that out next spring.

For the time being its potted, a messy and painful affair, the thorns are horrid. It grew against a wall hence the bare side it has, and I have removed the berries I hadn't been able to access when it was attached.







I haven't cut any leaves off yet as I wanted to ask for some advice first:

Although the trunk is more interesting than I had thought - now that I can see it - I had wanted to do a small formal upright with a clean conical shape to it. I am not interested in making this into a cascade or the like and am quite set on this idea.

As there is clearly too many leaves and a lot of trunk I had wanted to cut off the branch at the marked point (see below) and then also continue to cut off other smaller branches to reduce the tree to a more manageable size all the while defoliating it to some degree - which I will also be doing by just cutting some leaves off too.
TLDR: Can I cut where I have marked in the bottom picture, and why should I not? This will remove leaves and bring it closer to where i want this to go?

 

[ConorDash]

Hey,

I would recommend starting a thread on it for more replies mate, just saying.

Well, I think when taking an air layer with that much foliage, it is smart to reduce foliage mass at the same time.
I THINK.. I need to check, or you can google. But all of that foliage mass is now supported by ONLY your air layer roots, so I thought it was clever to remove some. HOwever, counter argument is, keeping foliage to help create root mass instead, but I think you'd have to mist the foliage or put in shade.. dunno.

I would leave till next year, for sure, see how it reacts on first flush, let that first flush get in 3-6 weeks of light, then go down to whatever point you want! It will back bud and live, they are very very tough. As long as you are sure its healthy to do so, hence the 3-6 weeks of light, judging how it reacts etc.

I am new to the forum, is there a big thread on this topic? I haven't got round to figuring out all the navigation.



Oh interesting, thought cutting back the trunk would put less strain on the roots, like removing leaves. Would you mind if I shared some pictures when I separate and pot it to ask for more specific advice? Was hoping to cut the trunk back as it is quite a large branch otherwise.


So I can chop once I have proof of growth without remorse?

No, you simply create a new thread on your own question or tree, like this one. Simples.

You already posted them, all good

And yes, i think I answered last one, above. They seem very strong, as I said with mine, i could have saved 2 years if I had chopped sooner.

 

[HHC]

Hey,

I would recommend starting a thread on it for more replies mate, just saying.

Oh yep, will do.

Well, I think when taking an air layer with that much foliage, it is smart to reduce foliage mass at the same time.
I THINK.. I need to check, or you can google. But all of that foliage mass is now supported by ONLY your air layer roots...

Yeh thoguht as much, it seems to not have hindered it anyway, getting plenty of new growth now, no leaves have dropped. Am quite suprised it has taken so. I guess the wet weather now is really quite ideal, just had to get it throguh the first week or so of baking sun.
Removed another airlayer of the same tree, it had much fewer roots so removed many more leaves and its looking alright for about a week or two in, hoping not to jinx it.

Thanks for the help with all this.

Best

HHC

 

[ConorDash]

Oh yep, will do.



Yeh thoguht as much, it seems to not have hindered it anyway, getting plenty of new growth now, no leaves have dropped. Am quite suprised it has taken so. I guess the wet weather now is really quite ideal, just had to get it throguh the first week or so of baking sun.
Removed another airlayer of the same tree, it had much fewer roots so removed many more leaves and its looking alright for about a week or two in, hoping not to jinx it.

Thanks for the help with all this.

Best

HHC

Cool, don't let your guard down though. Freshly dug up trees from the wild, air layers, all those things that mess with roots, can show perfectly nice signs but then decline after. It may be using the energy contained in its structure, not energy gained from new roots yet. Will be a little while, up to a year before you can be sure.
At this point, I'd say Spring will be the best tell tale of how the tree is and then you can decide next steps. Give it time.

 

[HHC]

Ooh, good advice. Yes, was going to leave it for the year before anything drastic.
The other one I separated, with far less roots, is not fairing so well and has leaves going yellow (photo attached), do you have any advice for this one?
I perhaps should have brought it indoors very much out of sunlight, I had it in mostly shaded area but its still outside.

Also, should I be feeding these too?

 

[ConorDash]

They should always be outside dude, never inside.
I repotted a small pyracantha this year, reduced roots. Leaves dropped off too, barely had any on. Then it regrew. It may not be terrible if they drop, may just be responding, thats all. Keep it shaded, water it properly, its the best you can do right now.

Start a thread for the tree, ask for other's advice, I'm by no means an expert.

No feeding. Feeding is for healthy trees, not those that are struggling. Feed a struggling tree and it will harm it more.