Pyracantha Air Layer

[ConorDash]

Then why not chuck it and invest in material that inspires you?

Bruce

This was completely experiment. Was my first air layer along with my mallsai Chinese elm, and it was for experience. This year (today) I'm gonna look at my big parent tree again and see if there are some better places to air layer, with what I have learnt over the year. I knew I could just do anything to this and not care as much, and learn from it. In whatever case, I will be leaving it to grow until at least autumn or next spring any way because it is an air layer and deserves more time to establish and get strong.

@ConorDash ... I'm new at the pyracantha...but...can see where Jason did chop it lower. I've a place later to carve out on the back.

The back
View attachment 140805

Because these shoot out canes like roses...I'm treating mine a bit differently than one normally would. And building up one branch as the canes come out...will fill in the bare areas. The leader I actually left long bending forward toward the viewer and making it a branch...and have a cane in the ideal spot at the top which I think will create a nicer apex. Once it grows out. The tree leans toward the viewer which is ideal...I plan on when the canes grow out. Adding movement and filling in the bare areas as well as developing the back side. I'm winging it along the way. There is a section of straight in the leader before it bends toward the viewer. But, I'm not overly concerned. When the canes come I will add fluid movement...and realize that...it will never be a perfect. But what tree in nature is perfect. (I need to clean the hard water stains off the base. But...doesn't seem to worry it none.)

Where it's at now...it looks like this from viewing from the pub table.
View attachment 140807

But if I step back...and stoop to look directly on it. You can see the areas needing developed yet. (Which is why it's on my pub table...it looks better at that height. lol)

View attachment 140808


You have more character farther up though...where the trunk bends. Gives movement to the trunk. Something to chew around. But this is an air layer...so I'm not sure how wise it is to air layer one recently air layered. You don't have enough foliage to sustain it I would imagine. @Brian Van Fleet you know Pyracantha better than myself for sure. Any direction for this young man?

View attachment 140809

Thanks for your recommendation and the info on your tree.
You are right, perhaps layering it again would be better... if I had a better eye to begin with, I would have done it better. Bit of a waste of time, I understand that but I liked the experience, learnt from it.
At this stage I'm looking to do anything to it, long or short term, just to see how it goes. Even if I could get experience of chop and grow technique on this one, whatever I do, it's experience and a learning opportunity,
Thanks for mentioning Brian, but I almost feel this isn't worth the mans time in giving his opinion lol.
We shall see . I might post some pics about another air layer location on the parent tree, if I find one today.

 

[Cadillactaste]

We all have to learn somewhere. Find something with some movement. In the long run you will be happier for it with the main bones. Makes up for lack of taper these are known for. You have a successful air layer under your belt. That's an accomplishment.

As for BVF...he may know if this one is worth an air layer...if it could handle one. Then you could leave the mother tree alone and this one isn't for naught. That was my reasoning for tagging him. I am not sure it is a good move or not.

 

[ConorDash]

We all have to learn somewhere. Find something with some movement. In the long run you will be happier for it with the main bones. Makes up for lack of taper these are known for. You have a successful air layer under your belt. That's an accomplishment.

As for BVF...he may know if this one is worth an air layer...if it could handle one. Then you could leave the mother tree alone and this one isn't for naught. That was my reasoning for tagging him. I am not sure it is a good move or not.

We shall see . The mother tree is very large and actually needs cutting back now any way, so air layering anymore from it is no problem and almost insignificant to it, it's quite large. The problem with good air layer locations on it is that it's large and any taper or movement is so gradual over such a distance. Making for bad proprortions for bonsai.
The Chinese elm air layer was also successful, so 2 successes lol. So far! I like the technique, got a taste for it now

 

[ConorDash]

Here's an album of pics.. the 2 pyracantha I have are monsters... have a look at their multi trunk bases. Many twisting winding branchs, just not sure it's acute enough angles.

https://imgur.com/a/vuGsb

Quite a number of pics. Also got another tree with a nice trunk and some good movement branches, I think it's a field Maple of some kind, but I don't know.
See what you think.

 

[ConorDash]

There was this, which was interesting to me.

 

[0soyoung]

The problem with good air layer locations on it is that it's large and any taper or movement is so gradual over such a distance. Making for bad proprortions for bonsai.

I'm still messing with a pyracantha (layering and etc.) that I bought at a garden center's 'lemon' sale several years ago. They take forever to thicken and AFIK, always wind up with tubular, taperless stems. I take it as an entertaining challenge to figure out what to do with it/them to make an pleasing composition. The flowers in fall are nice and the red berries (some varieties are orange) are nice in winter - they are nice winter bling.

I've found that root cuttings are interesting. I think one may be able to eventually develop an interesting exposed root design (roots are also kinda slow to thicken), so they also might do well in a root over rock style. I think they can look pretty nice in a cascade form, especially in bloom. I've also seen pix of pyracantha that are very conventional bonsai, but taper and movement is cut and regrow, cut an regrow, ... (I'm not sure how much I want to do that, but it is a possibility).

I halfheartedly wonder how small a 'bonsai' can they be (including how small a pot) - does internode and/or leaf size reduce? Or are they like horse chestnuts and pieris that miniaturize far better when grown from seed in a very small pot?

hmmm ... what else?

 

[Shima]

I halfheartedly wonder how small a 'bonsai' can they be

This small. http://tinyurl.com/lpbcybu

I think for limitations previously stated they are well suited for tiny bonsai. Chop short, wire shoot (s), wait.

 

[ConorDash]

This small. http://tinyurl.com/lpbcybu

I think for limitations previously stated they are well suited for tiny bonsai. Chop short, wire shoot (s), wait.

Get great to make a little mame like those and I have all this pyracantha materials, just not experienced enough eye on what to air layer and what to do with it to get it looking like that! Frustrating.

 

[0soyoung]

I have all this pyracantha materials, just not experienced enough eye on what to air layer and what to do with it to get it looking like that! Frustrating.

There's only one way to gain experience!

 

[Cadillactaste]

I'm trying to envision how you would go about air layering when it looks to go up through your eves? ... Your post had me eye balling a friends corkscrew willow. They do cuttings well. But...I do NOT need a tree that needs re-potted twice a year. Nor do I feel I have adequate space for the size it would need to really appeal to me. But...some pretty amazing twisted branches that are real thick...But...I can't manhandling the pot that it would need to go into...so...I just admire the tree as it has some unique shapes and movement.

 

[ConorDash]

I'm trying to envision how you would go about air layering when it looks to go up through your eves? ... Your post had me eye balling a friends corkscrew willow. They do cuttings well. But...I do NOT need a tree that needs re-potted twice a year. Nor do I feel I have adequate space for the size it would need to really appeal to me. But...some pretty amazing twisted branches that are real thick...But...I can't manhandling the pot that it would need to go into...so...I just admire the tree as it has some unique shapes and movement.

I'm sorry I don't know what up through my eves mean? The pyracanthas are growing over a trellis, aside from that they are open and at the end of my garden. Air layering a branch at the back or top, would be difficult yes.

I think I'm gonna air layer a few random things and just see what I can do I the future. I'm trying to see if I can make one of those mame bonsai, probably is for something so small, you need taper and these things are taper less... so I'm thinking of doing a thin branch, maybe half an inch thick type things and just frankensteining it somehow, in the future. Multiple grafts, maybe even using really thin branchs and twist them up the trunk in the future, make them fuse, create the taper... I dunno. This might be crazy.

 

[ConorDash]

Actually found a good thickness branch, coming right out of the trunk stump at the bottom, with a good movement to it.
Really trick to do and get to but I decided to air layer that.
Didn't get a pic of the actual movement in the branch/trunk, so I guess that'll be a surprise for all in 3-4 months.
I think due to the thickness, I noticed the sapwood layer more than I have previously, worried me that I might have cut too deep. But, I did what I felt was right so we shall see... hope I don't kill this one, has a lot of tree on top and has good movement.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

@ConorDash @Brian Van Fleet you know Pyracantha better than myself for sure. Any direction for this young man?

Haven't been following this thread too closely, but the foliage looks yellow. It may benefit from more nitrogen. If this is a recent air-layer, it may not be strong enough to create another layer from it just yet.

Pyracantha grow very angular, take forever to thicken up, ramify, or close wounds. Dead wood rots. Other than that, and the thorns, they're great to work with.

 

[ConorDash]

Haven't been following this thread too closely, but the foliage looks yellow. It may benefit from more nitrogen. If this is a recent air-layer, it may not be strong enough to create another layer from it just yet.

Pyracantha grow very angular, take forever to thicken up, ramify, or close wounds. Dead wood rots. Other than that, and the thorns, they're great to work with.

Yeah I'm starting to realise that this really isn't a great species to work with.
If I find a good piece of material, I wouldn't shy away but it seems difficult.
Air layering a piece now which has good movement, if that's successful then I could see that having some pontetial in future.
The thorns really are... ridiculous. A little stump or trunk with some notice taper, that's all I want.. let it ramify, get some berries and it'll be lovely.
Thanks for your info .

 

[ConorDash]

Update pics... Growing well, healthy looking and strong.
Still, all this growth is just for health and not to keep.
I can't see a way in which any of the tree, above 5-6" will be kept. It will have to be chopped down to a stump. All branches and trunk too straight, taperless, boring.
This is gonna be just a fun experience tree, nothing expected from it.
Still taking any thoughts on what to do with it. Its a blank and lack of potential canvas. Go mad.

 

[ConorDash]

It's grown out quite a bit since air layer separation .
Still a stick in a pot of course, but it's my stick in a pot...

September 2016,


August 2017,

 

[Maloghurst]

Bump

 

[ConorDash]

Bump

This was continued in this thread:
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ugly-ducklings-suggestions-advice-please.32833/page-4

The last page has a recent pic. Just been reduced more and now repotted.
I’ll see how well it grows over next few months, potentially I’ll reduce down again if I get the right reaction and growth in right place.

No amazing transformation yet I’m afraid! One day, perhaps.. always been a very long term project + long shot if it’ll turn in to something good.

 

[HHC]

I've been getting some roots on my pyracantha airlayer (my first airlayer) and just wanted to ask - as I've been reading this thread a lot for guidance - once you've got some good roots and its time to separate, with the experience you have now how would you go about it? I had two main questions but any overall advice would be appreciated:

1. You planted it into straight kitty litter did you? Should I put mine straight into my bonsai mix then, I have seen some people put it into a pot of more sphagnum but I would not know how to water that without it getting very soggy, and it seems that it is only to really build up the roots more, I think I should have enough at the moment.
2. How does watering it work after, you have a root ball of sphagnum surrounded by better draining kitty litter in a pot, by watering it and letting it drain would this not make the sphagnum get soggy and cause the roots to rot?

Edit: I have attached a photo of my root ball.

 

[ConorDash]

Hey,

Yeah I used litter but now days I wouldn’t, I’m moving away from that as a substrate. It clearly works as I’ve had trees in it for years but in some occasions it doesn’t + will get better results in something else.
Yeh you’ve got a load of roots, I’d put the whole thing (don’t play with the roots or remove any of the current substrate) in to your pot and surround with whatever substrate you are gonna use. I’d say no need for anymore sphagnum.
if there’s moss around it now and you are putting in to a pot where there will be other substrate, simply try not to worry. I can understand that dilemma or it staying wet and around, not being wet. I don’t honestly have an answer for that bit, I don’t know. Just keep an eye on watering, feel with finger to see how wet different parts are.
When you pot it up, those roots will start to stretch out and go in to the new substrate.
Just let it grow on for a year. Then at a good time for repot, look at it properly, bare root if comfortable, remove big roots, etc etc. Want fine rooting and radial today the trunk if possible.
I’d simply say using a good substrate, akadama, kiryu, pumice, lava etc, they deal with water well so it’s difficult to over water, extremely easy to under water. But you just need to get experience with watering and substrates. Something I’m still working on after 4 years..