Princess 👑 Persimmon no. 1

Princess persimmons are in the genus Diospyros. Virtually all species in this genus are dioecious, meaning individual plants will be male or female. Flowers of male plants produce pollen only, no fruit, no seed. Flowers of female plants produce no pollen, they do have stigma, and ovaries, and can produce fruit with seed when pollinated. Normally several different bee species, especially solitary carpenter bees, solitary orchard bees, and ground dwelling sollitary mason bees are the original wild pollinator insects. Honeybees can do the job in modern orchards, if pollination is desired. Key point, in the wild form, no pollination, there will be no fruit. If you want fruit on wild type princess persimmons, you must have both male and female plants in bloom at the same time.

This sounds like male & female in mammals, but the genetic source and resulting mechanism is quite different from the mammalian model. The way sex works in Diospyros allows some interesting variation.

For Diospyros rhombifolia, the Princess persimmon, the normal condition is that if a female flower does not get pollinated, it will dry and fall off without producing fruit. However the genetics allow that a small percentage of every 100 wild type female plants, there will be a few females that will produce seedless fruit without being pollinated. This variant, is heritable. So in Japan there are in cultivation genetic races (selected breeding groups) of D. rhombifolia that a high percentage of the females produced from seed will flower and go on to make seedless fruit if no male pollinator is present. Princess persimmon from the wild in Japan, most females will be barren without a male pollinator. But Princess persimmons propagated in Japanese bonsai nurseries have a high percentage of females that produce seedless fruit without a male, because it is a genetic trait that can be selected for. Both in Japan and USA, propagation of select clones by grafting, cuttings, or air layers are possible, and were done to make these unusual female plants available.

These select female cultivars, that make seedless fruit have been imported into the USA by people like Bill Valavanis, Julien Adams, and many others over the years. So when you buy a female Princess persimmon from a bonsai artist or propagator, if they tell you that you don't need a male to get fruit, this is why.

Seed from bonsai propagators will likely have a fair percentage of females that can make seedless fruit.

If you buy seed from "seed companies" for instance, Sheffield Seed Company, they will normally sell wild type seed, meaning that for seed sourced from these people, who specialize in supply wild type genetics, and are not at all bonsai orientated, these will produce females that will generally be barren without a male pollinator. Yields for wild type seed are anywhere from 70% male, 30% female to 50% male and 50% female. Somewhat depends on their source.

The condition described for Princess persimmon more or less applies to all persimmons. Diospyros kaki is one of the worlds oldest cultivated fruits, and quite a few seedless female cultivars have been selected & propagated over the 3000 years it has been in cultivation.

In North America, Diospyros virginiana, the American persimmon, there are a small number of seedless fruit when not pollinated cultivars of the American persimmon, I have 3 grafted plants in my back yard that I have hoping will reach fruiting size soon. 'Yates', 'Weber' and 'Prok' are the three I'm testing. I will report the minute I have success. I also have a few American persimmon seedlings, one 4 year old, most are 3 and 2 years old, that I am raising with intention of moving them into being bonsai. So far nothing in a pot has bloomed. My oldest tree was planted in the ground and began producing fruit at 7 years of age in Southern IL. Unfortunately, there are wild males in the woods nearby, so all the fruit has seed.

I think the North American native persimmon, Diospyros virginiana, is a species that should be looked into for medium to large size bonsai. It is winter hardy into southern eastern Canada, so pretty much all of zone 5 in North America. For people in zone 6 and warmer winter protection is minor or even unnecessary. Fruit is smaller than Kaki, between 1 and 2 inches in diameter. And seedlings begin developing bark at about 7 years of age, and develop a unique for Diospyros, heavy alligator checked bark once over 20 years of age. The heavy plated bark would be very attractive if you could get an older trunk growing. A tree around 3 feet tall, and "sort of" literati trained would look great with a few fruit hanging well after leaf drop in autumn, with the heavy bark. A great winter silhouette species.
Wow! Spectacular information! Thank you. I have a princess persimmon twin trunk due to arrive tomorrow. I was told by Bella Bonsai where I bought it that it is a denial grown from a root cutting. He did mention needing a male near by to pollinate it. Hopefully I can one. I have bought a pine tree and book from Julian Adams and will reach out to him as well. Below is a picture of the tree as it should arrive.
 

Attachments

  • E7B43E91-2982-430A-AD08-466E0EDB3F58.jpeg
    E7B43E91-2982-430A-AD08-466E0EDB3F58.jpeg
    80.3 KB · Views: 121
Princess persimmons are in the genus Diospyros. Virtually all species in this genus are dioecious, meaning individual plants will be male or female. Flowers of male plants produce pollen only, no fruit, no seed. Flowers of female plants produce no pollen, they do have stigma, and ovaries, and can produce fruit with seed when pollinated. Normally several different bee species, especially solitary carpenter bees, solitary orchard bees, and ground dwelling sollitary mason bees are the original wild pollinator insects. Honeybees can do the job in modern orchards, if pollination is desired. Key point, in the wild form, no pollination, there will be no fruit. If you want fruit on wild type princess persimmons, you must have both male and female plants in bloom at the same time.

This sounds like male & female in mammals, but the genetic source and resulting mechanism is quite different from the mammalian model. The way sex works in Diospyros allows some interesting variation.

For Diospyros rhombifolia, the Princess persimmon, the normal condition is that if a female flower does not get pollinated, it will dry and fall off without producing fruit. However the genetics allow that a small percentage of every 100 wild type female plants, there will be a few females that will produce seedless fruit without being pollinated. This variant, is heritable. So in Japan there are in cultivation genetic races (selected breeding groups) of D. rhombifolia that a high percentage of the females produced from seed will flower and go on to make seedless fruit if no male pollinator is present. Princess persimmon from the wild in Japan, most females will be barren without a male pollinator. But Princess persimmons propagated in Japanese bonsai nurseries have a high percentage of females that produce seedless fruit without a male, because it is a genetic trait that can be selected for. Both in Japan and USA, propagation of select clones by grafting, cuttings, or air layers are possible, and were done to make these unusual female plants available.

These select female cultivars, that make seedless fruit have been imported into the USA by people like Bill Valavanis, Julien Adams, and many others over the years. So when you buy a female Princess persimmon from a bonsai artist or propagator, if they tell you that you don't need a male to get fruit, this is why.

Seed from bonsai propagators will likely have a fair percentage of females that can make seedless fruit.

If you buy seed from "seed companies" for instance, Sheffield Seed Company, they will normally sell wild type seed, meaning that for seed sourced from these people, who specialize in supply wild type genetics, and are not at all bonsai orientated, these will produce females that will generally be barren without a male pollinator. Yields for wild type seed are anywhere from 70% male, 30% female to 50% male and 50% female. Somewhat depends on their source.

The condition described for Princess persimmon more or less applies to all persimmons. Diospyros kaki is one of the worlds oldest cultivated fruits, and quite a few seedless female cultivars have been selected & propagated over the 3000 years it has been in cultivation.

In North America, Diospyros virginiana, the American persimmon, there are a small number of seedless fruit when not pollinated cultivars of the American persimmon, I have 3 grafted plants in my back yard that I have hoping will reach fruiting size soon. 'Yates', 'Weber' and 'Prok' are the three I'm testing. I will report the minute I have success. I also have a few American persimmon seedlings, one 4 year old, most are 3 and 2 years old, that I am raising with intention of moving them into being bonsai. So far nothing in a pot has bloomed. My oldest tree was planted in the ground and began producing fruit at 7 years of age in Southern IL. Unfortunately, there are wild males in the woods nearby, so all the fruit has seed.

I think the North American native persimmon, Diospyros virginiana, is a species that should be looked into for medium to large size bonsai. It is winter hardy into southern eastern Canada, so pretty much all of zone 5 in North America. For people in zone 6 and warmer winter protection is minor or even unnecessary. Fruit is smaller than Kaki, between 1 and 2 inches in diameter. And seedlings begin developing bark at about 7 years of age, and develop a unique for Diospyros, heavy alligator checked bark once over 20 years of age. The heavy plated bark would be very attractive if you could get an older trunk growing. A tree around 3 feet tall, and "sort of" literati trained would look great with a few fruit hanging well after leaf drop in autumn, with the heavy bark. A great winter silhouette species.
Let’s go collecting man
 
Don’t feel like working in cold garage.
Deciding if this 8” new Erin or terracotta pot will be better .. will see after I’m done. Trying to take out the smaller trees and planting them in their own containers
 

Attachments

  • E16A3764-826D-4636-B622-85E65586860D.jpeg
    E16A3764-826D-4636-B622-85E65586860D.jpeg
    183.6 KB · Views: 89
Extremely dense rootball .. really only reducing the side where the smaller shoots emerge from… trying to leave core of rootball alone
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    248.3 KB · Views: 65
Folks usually try to repot princess persimmon later than most species, there are generally 3 accepted times:

1. March as the buds are about to open up. The disadvantage of this timing is the tree sulks all year and is unlikely to fruit.
2. June-July after the leaves have hardened. You maintain fast growth rate and can usually keep fruit on the tree
3. August- September before the approach of fall, typically for mature trees. The advantage is you start the new year with no interruptions to growth rate.
 
Folks usually try to repot princess persimmon later than most species, there are generally 3 accepted times:

1. March as the buds are about to open up. The disadvantage of this timing is the tree sulks all year and is unlikely to fruit.
2. June-July after the leaves have hardened. You maintain fast growth rate and can usually keep fruit on the tree
3. August- September before the approach of fall, typically for mature trees. The advantage is you start the new year with no interruptions to growth rate.


I’m doing it now and keeping in garage then greenhouse. I was instructed by Julian to do this in winter because in his experience on east coast the princess persimmon will start bud elongating in winter. Which once that happens it’s too late .. as per his instruction
 
Saved some of what I could for the little suckers in the pot… the roots were extremely pot bound , so I removed what I thought was safe, and didn’t take off more than that. I’m glad I used a bigger pot to reduce the root size down over time . I used finer akadama and lava/ pumice for the substrate mixture. I kept in mind not removing too many roots so I believe this will respond nicely. Cleaned up smaller outlier roots
 

Attachments

  • 81C89C0B-B49B-44E9-957C-20B530CCBC33.jpeg
    81C89C0B-B49B-44E9-957C-20B530CCBC33.jpeg
    225.6 KB · Views: 54
  • 3AF6593A-B408-464F-974A-AF783015A782.jpeg
    3AF6593A-B408-464F-974A-AF783015A782.jpeg
    278.2 KB · Views: 47
  • 946EA8BD-62D8-4DE5-B5BB-1CA14AF63A4F.jpeg
    946EA8BD-62D8-4DE5-B5BB-1CA14AF63A4F.jpeg
    212.5 KB · Views: 48
  • 0CD799D5-06D5-4185-9D0C-466C5855950B.jpeg
    0CD799D5-06D5-4185-9D0C-466C5855950B.jpeg
    221.6 KB · Views: 47
  • 14F01BBC-BD8D-4A3B-A47A-5873FA4BFFC6.jpeg
    14F01BBC-BD8D-4A3B-A47A-5873FA4BFFC6.jpeg
    243.5 KB · Views: 77
Folks usually try to repot princess persimmon later than most species, there are generally 3 accepted times:

1. March as the buds are about to open up. The disadvantage of this timing is the tree sulks all year and is unlikely to fruit.
2. June-July after the leaves have hardened. You maintain fast growth rate and can usually keep fruit on the tree
3. August- September before the approach of fall, typically for mature trees. The advantage is you start the new year with no interruptions to growth rate.

I’ve been interested in this - the little I’ve read seems to emphasize how difficult they are to grow and how they hate being repotted. So…. How the heck do you repot ‘em!

I like the looks of these but I think it may be best for me to look at them vs grow them myself…
 
Now it’s potted up going to let it go roots wise for a couple years and slowly reduce the root ball overtime.. and drive the buds back because I don’t like the straight section on the trunk so drive buds in and ramify.
 
I’ve been interested in this - the little I’ve read seems to emphasize how difficult they are to grow and how they hate being repotted. So…. How the heck do you repot ‘em!

I like the looks of these but I think it may be best for me to look at them vs grow them myself…
They propagate best as root cutting or suckers. Left the root ball core in tact , the roots do encircle which is a natural habit. Only removed the outer roots and trimmed it back. The roots were fine black in appearance carefully combed somewhat looser than before since it was pot bound but still left a lot roots in tact
 

Attachments

  • 74B1A35E-2A2C-4594-AA00-E60F235B6EF0.jpeg
    74B1A35E-2A2C-4594-AA00-E60F235B6EF0.jpeg
    225.6 KB · Views: 68
  • 4382D6F6-4488-463B-AB77-E135B558BEF9.jpeg
    4382D6F6-4488-463B-AB77-E135B558BEF9.jpeg
    243.5 KB · Views: 39
  • CF75DCAC-2DE5-40CF-883A-B9AAF051019D.jpeg
    CF75DCAC-2DE5-40CF-883A-B9AAF051019D.jpeg
    212.5 KB · Views: 54
Folks usually try to repot princess persimmon later than most species, there are generally 3 accepted times:

1. March as the buds are about to open up. The disadvantage of this timing is the tree sulks all year and is unlikely to fruit.
2. June-July after the leaves have hardened. You maintain fast growth rate and can usually keep fruit on the tree
3. August- September before the approach of fall, typically for mature trees. The advantage is you start the new year with no interruptions to growth rate.
triple confirmed my timing.
 
Last edited:
Been enjoying the thaw in 40’s outside yesterday and today before it goes back into garage for more winter weather. Here is a better photo (hopefully)
 

Attachments

  • 6CC978C8-BADD-491B-83B9-86441DF37B0B.jpeg
    6CC978C8-BADD-491B-83B9-86441DF37B0B.jpeg
    116.4 KB · Views: 67
triple confirmed my timing.
I hope I didn't cause you to lose sleep!

I was only quoting the professionals. But we should unpack this a bit:

1. Japanese growers are maximizers, they have 1000's of plants and have their process dialed in. That doesn't mean you can't repot in February and protect, but they are saying you get better results later....much later.
2. These people have been growing persimmons longer than anyone in the US. Yamaguchi Yasuhisa has grown them longer than anyone anywhere. He probably developed the cultivar you are growing.
3. I live in Oregon and the climate is very similar to Japan, our cherry blossoms bloom the same week. So I follow what they recommend. Adjust later for Penn
4. They make many points about "momentum". Since persimmons are very sensitive to root work and take a long time to recover, you want the tree really pushing to build up that momentum. Sometimes I repot a weak tree and it doesn't leaf out until July. To prevent this, I should repot once it has fully leafed out. Weird right? They are semi-tropical in a sense. Your tree is very healthy and well rooted, it will be fine. But the flowers may or may not develop and it may not fruit this year.

1643995033064.png1643995042614.png

1643995053401.png1643995066549.png1643995075520.png
 
I hope I didn't cause you to lose sleep!

I was only quoting the professionals. But we should unpack this a bit:

1. Japanese growers are maximizers, they have 1000's of plants and have their process dialed in. That doesn't mean you can't repot in February and protect, but they are saying you get better results later....much later.
2. These people have been growing persimmons longer than anyone in the US. Yamaguchi Yasuhisa has grown them longer than anyone anywhere. He probably developed the cultivar you are growing.
3. I live in Oregon and the climate is very similar to Japan, our cherry blossoms bloom the same week. So I follow what they recommend. Adjust later for Penn
4. They make many points about "momentum". Since persimmons are very sensitive to root work and take a long time to recover, you want the tree really pushing to build up that momentum. Sometimes I repot a weak tree and it doesn't leaf out until July. To prevent this, I should repot once it has fully leafed out. Weird right? They are semi-tropical in a sense. Your tree is very healthy and well rooted, it will be fine. But the flowers may or may not develop and it may not fruit this year.

View attachment 418916View attachment 418917

View attachment 418918View attachment 418919View attachment 418920
Thanks for the unpacking .. I will of course update this once spring arrives and the growing season progresses. I did not lose sleep, but I wanted to confirm what I was doing wont affect the tree or hurt the flower buds on it , and new species for me to learn on.. just wanted to convey that I was advised to repot around now , not like I made it up…… but we shall see, mostly likely will be in a greenhouse this weekend. Where did you acquire those books.. I can’t read it but wish there was a translation
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom