Peter Adams Seminar at the GSBF convention

[PaulH]

I think we can all agree on this. You are absolutely right, Japanese are not stupid (and yes, they have eyes as well). Thank you for pointing this out.

We need to take a step back here, and realize that art is universal. Bot the East and West have access to it. Nature is universal as well. There is no Japanese nature and Western nature. Bonsai can express all the different views of nature.

But, I am hijacking my own thread. If I remember, I started with the soil....

Riiight, soil.....sorry

I too got sidetracked.
I think Peter has something in advocating use of moss in soil, it made sense biologically, so I'm trying it. I also know by experience that Peter is wrong about akadama, it is a fantastic soil ingredient. I also read one of Al's posts a couple of years ago regarding humic acid, tried it and became convinced. I also use a lot of Turface, especially on newly collected and developing material. I can tell you, also from experience that 20 to 30 years ago I killed a lot of trees by rotting the roots of with too organic of a soil mix.

My point is, listen to everyone, experiment, an keep what works.

Paul

 

[Redwing]

I'm late to the party, but...

It seems to me that the proof is in the pudding. Can anyone show me five good trees --- even one good tree --- that Peter Adams has styled and maintained?

He draws beautiful sketches in his books, most of which I own, and in Bonsai Focus. And in these sketches he never lets himself be constrained by the actual dimensions let alone the position of branches on the material he is supposedly designing for --- which one could interpret as a virtue I suppose. But is there any evidence that he can design real trees that stand alongside the best Western practitioners of the art? He certainly hasn't posted any on his website! I'd want to see it before I did anything other than laugh at his suggestion of returning to organics.

-rw

 

[Attila Soos]

But is there any evidence that he can design real trees that stand alongside the best Western practitioners of the art?

This is from his biography:

Over forty years, he built a world class collection of Bonsai. A large portion of these trees are now in the National Collection in England. He exhibited and won gold medals at the Chelsea Flower Show, London and was advisor and teacher on Bonsai to the Royal Horticultural Society in London.

So, the answer is yes, over the last 40 years, he designed and created an impressive number of outstanding bonsai. He was already creating bonsai when most of the Western world wasn't even aware that bonsai existed.

 

[Attila Soos]

And in these sketches he never lets himself be constrained by the actual dimensions let alone the position of branches on the material he is supposedly designing for ..

I watched his sketching for a few hours, standing next to him. He carefully considered the position of the branches, as well as the size of the material. He also discussed the details with the owner of the tree. If he didn't pay attention to the position of the branches, the discussions with the owners wouldn't make sense.... since the discussions were about the position of the branches. He paid attention to the smallest detail.

 

[Redwing]

So, the answer is yes, over the last 40 years, he designed and created an impressive number of outstanding bonsai. He was already creating bonsai when most of the Western world wasn't even aware that bonsai existed.

So when no one else was doing it, he was doing it better than they were?

All good and well that the trees are now in some national collection, but I'd really like to see photographic evidence that Peter is currently styling and maintaining trees that could stand beside the high-end work coming out of the US and Europe today. His extensive website certainly doesn't have such evidence. Why not?

-rw

 

[Redwing]

I watched his sketching for a few hours, standing next to him. He carefully considered the position of the branches, as well as the size of the material. He also discussed the details with the owner of the tree. If he didn't pay attention to the position of the branches, the discussions with the owners wouldn't make sense.... since the discussions were about the position of the branches. He paid attention to the smallest detail.

Let's go to the examples on his web page where we have side-by-side photographs of trees and sketches of their futures. http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients.html

First tree listed: http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/Doyle/Doyle.html
Look at how he manages to change the angle at which the already-dead left-side jin emerges from the trunk.

Second tree listed: http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/Hilvers/Hilvers.html
My first thought is that he gets amazing growth out of the deadwood at the base. But then I realize I'm being unfair. He isn't ignoring details or growing deadwood, he's planning to glue new deadwood into the groove! Yeah, I know, it's not unheard of. But this does tree need it? Does it improve the artistic value (or commercial value, for that matter) of the tree?

Third tree listed: http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/Kirk/kirk.html
I won't quibble with Peter's sketch though I'm not sure how much reduction relative to current growth habit would be needed to give the sort of ramification he has drawn.

Fourth tree listed: http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/Jay/Jay.html
Measuring height from the base to the crook of the apical jin and width at the broadest point adjacent to the left-hand jin, the height:width ratio of the sketch is 6.7:1 whereas the height:width ratio of the actual tree is merely 8.6:1. Again, this is deadwood! How are you going to get that growth?

Fifth tree lacks a sketch.

Sixth link has two trees. http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/An-Ta/AnTa.html. The first seems pretty good -- nice tree, too! The second tree and sketch has the same problem as above. The ratio of trunk height (measured to the first frontal jin) to width (measured above the nebari) has increased dramatically as we go from from the two real-life pictures to the sketch. Maybe it'll happen....but it sure seems optimistic to me!

But those are just the examples from his website. Go through any of his Bonsai Focus columns, look carefully, and see if you don't see the same thing.

That is not to say that Peter is not inspiring -- he certainly is both in person and in print. I can attest to both from first-hand experience. Nor is it to say that his sketches are not valuable. One can surely learn a great deal about artistic design by looking at what Peter would like these trees to look like some day, and to this end I have spent numerous hours with his various books, looking at his drawings. But given what I know of what is physically possible to do with bonsai, I have to view his sketches as efforts to capture the feeling that he'd like to see created by each tree, rather than a literal guide for where the trees can go.

-rw

 

[Attila Soos]

... I have to view his sketches as efforts to capture the feeling that he'd like to see created by each tree, rather than a literal guide for where the trees can go.

-rw

When I was talking to Peter's wife (who was also present at the seminar), that's exactly what she said. She said that (I am paraphrasing) "many people don't realize that Peter's drawings are not literal instructions, but rather a guidance toward a certain feel and look". So, you are right, that's the intention.

I also know that (as you said) the drawings will always look better than the real tree - but that's how drawings are supposed to look. They are the ideal that we can strive for, but never quite achieve it, except on rare occasions. That's the nature of ideals - always distant, always better than reality.

 

[Attila Soos]

Let's go to the examples on his web page where we have side-by-side photographs of trees and sketches of their futures. http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients.html

First tree listed: http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/Doyle/Doyle.html
Look at how he manages to change the angle at which the already-dead left-side jin emerges from the trunk.

I agree, the jin on the real tree will hardly have the nice movement and angle that the jin on the sketch has (although a freshly created jin can be bent since the wood is not yet dry).

Second tree listed: http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/Hilvers/Hilvers.html
My first thought is that he gets amazing growth out of the deadwood at the base. But then I realize I'm being unfair. He isn't ignoring details or growing deadwood, he's planning to glue new deadwood into the groove! Yeah, I know, it's not unheard of. But this does tree need it? Does it improve the artistic value (or commercial value, for that matter) of the tree?

I think it does improve it. At least, it looks much better, as I see it. Peter is a big fan of added driftwood, and he said that it is easily achievable. I think it's not an unreasonable assumption.
Personally, I am not a fan of added driftwood, but my personal taste is irrelevant here.

Third tree listed: http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/Kirk/kirk.html
I won't quibble with Peter's sketch though I'm not sure how much reduction relative to current growth habit would be needed to give the sort of ramification he has drawn.

Ramification is a matter of time and some skill. A chinese elm is an ideal subject for this. Easily doable.

Fourth tree listed: http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/Jay/Jay.html
Measuring height from the base to the crook of the apical jin and width at the broadest point adjacent to the left-hand jin, the height:width ratio of the sketch is 6.7:1 whereas the height:width ratio of the actual tree is merely 8.6:1. Again, this is deadwood! How are you going to get that growth?

The height:width ratio difference between the tree and the sketch has a minimal importance. I don't think that Peter tries to copy it with the accuracy of a technical drawing.
But the design that he recommends, I've seen it done on California junipers countless times. There is nothing that can prevent the artist to achieve it.

Sixth link has two trees. http://www.peteradamsbonsai.com/clients/An-Ta/AnTa.html. The first seems pretty good -- nice tree, too! The second tree and sketch has the same problem as above. The ratio of trunk height (measured to the first frontal jin) to width (measured above the nebari) has increased dramatically as we go from from the two real-life pictures to the sketch. Maybe it'll happen....but it sure seems optimistic to me!

Again, you are fixated on the height:with ratio difference, for no reason. The two materials presented have very good trunks, with decent proportions, regardless of the difference. And the designs that he recommends are absolutely great. I can't think of anything that is unachieavable here.

Looking at the drawings and the material, I can't help but think that those drawings are a great tool to improve the trees. He encourages us to do similar drawings, because when we draw, that's when we REALLY SEE the possibilities, and the future design idea will be firmly implanted in our mind.

 

[Redwing]

When I was talking to Peter's wife (who was also present at the seminar), that's exactly what she said. She said that (I am paraphrasing) "many people don't realize that Peter's drawings are not literal instructions, but rather a guidance toward a certain feel and look". So, you are right, that's the intention.

I also know that (as you said) the drawings will always look better than the real tree - but that's how drawings are supposed to look. They are the ideal that we can strive for, but never quite achieve it, except on rare occasions. That's the nature of ideals - always distant, always better than reality.

On this, surely we can agree. Thank you for confirming my view of Peter's sketches. I am glad you, like me, find them beautiful, valuable, and educational.

Best,
rw

 

[greerhw]

Good artist !

keep it green,
Harry

 

[FrankP999]

I also use Gro-Power planting tabs. A simple tablet that will sit on the soil like any Japanese fertilizer cake.

Smoke,
What application rate do you use with the Gro-Power tabs, i.e. how many tabs ? How long do they last ? Do you re-apply more than once a year?

Thanks
Frank

 

[Concorde]

Peter Adam's workshop

I am attending a three year design workshop with Peter Adams at Lotus bonsai nursery in Northern California. My project tree is a trident maple. I am in the second year of the workshop and have enjoyed it immensely. Peter has provided guidance that is second to none. His drawing of he tree is amazing. I will be attending the workshop next month. Afterwards I will provide a progression series of pics of the trident. You will be surprised.

Art

 

[FrankP999]

Smoke,
What application rate do you use with the Gro-Power tabs, i.e. how many tabs ? How long do they last ? Do you re-apply more than once a year?

Thanks
Frank

Hey Smoke

I am interested in how you use the Gro Power tabs. I bought a jar of 200. I sent you a PM on this.

Frank

 

[bwaynef]

The instructions inside the container suggest using 1 every 4-6" on the surface of the soil.

I'm impressed with the stuff so far. It has NO discernible smell. I'll tell you if/when it passes the Labrador test.

 

[Smoke]

Hey Smoke

I am interested in how you use the Gro Power tabs. I bought a jar of 200. I sent you a PM on this.

Frank

Yea, I didn't even know this thread was still active. I just found out about another message board on the start page of this forum that I didn't know existed. sorry about that. If I had a PM it went to cyberspace.

Yes, one tablet per 4" of pot is fine. about 3 in a gallon container. 8 to 10 in a five gallon can. I add new one's each month. The can says one year application. Phewy! Add them monthly and water well, you will be rewarded. With free draining soil you cannot over fertilize with these tabs.

 

[greerhw]

Yea, I didn't even know this thread was still active. I just found out about another message board on the start page of this forum that I didn't know existed. sorry about that. If I had a PM it went to cyberspace.

Yes, one tablet per 4" of pot is fine. about 3 in a gallon container. 8 to 10 in a five gallon can. I add new one's each month. The can says one year application. Phewy! Add them monthly and water well, you will be rewarded. With free draining soil you cannot over fertilize with these tabs.

Damn dude, you should be getting paid for all this info, like the dude on TV that died, everything you do is gospel, I'm jealous, no body ever ask me s*#t.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Smoke]

Damn dude, you should be getting paid for all this info, like the dude on TV that died, everything you do is gospel, I'm jealous, no body ever ask me s*#t.

keep it green,
Harry

U gotta know $*#t to give $*#t!

 

[greerhw]

U gotta know $*#t to give $*#t!

I know Jack S#*T, do you....hehehehehehe

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Smoke]

Here is an example of a small trident maple!













just kidding....al

 

[Smoke]

I know Jack S#*T, do you....hehehehehehe

keep it green,
Harry

No...but I know his nephew, Jack Daniel. snort..