Peat moss and sand

Beng said:
I'd like to know of one well known bonsai artist that uses the peat moss sold here in the USA. Walter Pall uses Rough peat in europe, but as he says on his blog the peat moss sold in the USA is not suitable for bonsai. http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2009/04/rough-peat.html It'll run out the bottom of the pot as it's super finely ground. If you mix it with perlite, or lava you'll end up with a pot of perlite or lava after a few years. It is not rough or sharp. Those are two important qualities in growing ramified root tips, and as such it gives the roots little to nothing to bind onto.
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Julian Adams (from Virginia) uses standard peat as a small (10% or so) component of his mixes. He takes the baled form, breaks off chunks, and screens it for roughly 1/8-1/4" pieces. I've tried this and you can obtain a very low yield of peat "chunks" that hold together for a while at least. I don't know how well they hold up over time when mixed with other materials (like turface, which is the majority of his mix). I'm going to do some experiments with this during the upcoming season.

Chris
 
Julians great, bought two princess persimmon from him this year. His soil mix is mostly turface, I see some bark in it but that could be the sifted peat you mentioned. I like the idea of breaking off chunks and sifting it, locally i've only seen the powdery kind but would love to find a supplier of peat moss that I could sift to 1/8 inch locally.
 
Beng said:
Julians great, bought two princess persimmon from him this year. His soil mix is mostly turface, I see some bark in it but that could be the sifted peat you mentioned. I like the idea of breaking off chunks and sifting it, locally i've only seen the powdery kind but would love to find a supplier of peat moss that I could sift to 1/8 inch locally.
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I whent to a local green house and purchased a bail of compressed canadian peat when you break it up it holds shape rather well unless you make an attempt to break it up, maintains a similar lump like a bark chip.
 
How does the compressed peat do soaking up water, does it float when wet or does it soak it up immediately. Can it hold it's bark like shape once fully wet or will it turn to mud like milled peat?
 
I use 50/50 dyna-rok and quality potting soil.The potting soil has perlite in it.I had to build a rain shelter with a clear poly-carb roof for the cold rains in spring and autumn.It really did stay to wet,especially when you get two storms in a row.As long as you have a rain shelter it is just fine though.
 

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Beng said:
How does the compressed peat do soaking up water, does it float when wet or does it soak it up immediately. Can it hold it's bark like shape once fully wet or will it turn to mud like milled peat?
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it will float until wet, it seems to hold it's shape relatively well there is break down over time. and it takes 5-10 mins to actually soak up water, watering it usually takes a small amount twice within an hour of each other to ensure it has been properly watered, typically starting with misting the surface thoroughly lettings it stand and soak in, then come back 10-15 mines later check the soil (usually it's about half way down the pot) then mist heavily again and leave it be for 3 days. Running water over it does not seem to be the best way to water peat, misting or a watering can with a fine nosel works best. But don't take my word entirely for it I have only been at this for three months, growing cuttings and seedlings.
 
Beng said:
How does the compressed peat do soaking up water, does it float when wet or does it soak it up immediately. Can it hold it's bark like shape once fully wet or will it turn to mud like milled peat?
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I don't know...I have a bag of the mini peat chunks, I'll try to mix up a small batch of turface and peat tomorrow and see how it behaves.

I have a tree from Julian that was planted in his mix (which as you said is mainly turface...can't remember if he said 70% or 90%...along with a small amount of granite grit and peat chunks...no bark as far as I can recall). When I repotted it I didn't see much evidence of the peat in the mix. I suspect that it disintegrates over time and washes out of the pot. The very act of mixing it with turface may cause a lot of it to break apart. I'll let you know what I find.
 
coh said:
I don't know...I have a bag of the mini peat chunks, I'll try to mix up a small batch of turface and peat tomorrow and see how it behaves.

I have a tree from Julian that was planted in his mix (which as you said is mainly turface...can't remember if he said 70% or 90%...along with a small amount of granite grit and peat chunks...no bark as far as I can recall). When I repotted it I didn't see much evidence of the peat in the mix. I suspect that it disintegrates over time and washes out of the pot. The very act of mixing it with turface may cause a lot of it to break apart. I'll let you know what I find.
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if it's not chunky and hairish looking don't use it, like for instance anything like those little things you get for seed starting kits, if it's at all like that I know it wont work, that is like my compacted fines I use as a top layer mulch substitute.
 
In the 1960s and 1970s THE standard mix for producing nursery grown ornamentals was the University of California mix or better known as the UC Mix.

At that time it was comprised of 50% sand and 50% peat moss, sometimes with a few chemical additives such as Superphospate. The peat was not long fibered sphagnum, it was the type found in compressed bales used by gardeners to improve soil structure. This was before the days of adding bark because peat was inexpensive then.

When I went to college on Long Island during that time most nursery stock was grown in that mix and it was a natural for bonsai hobbyists to use that mix for growing plants for bonsai, NOT in bonsai containers. I used it for a couple of decades until the commercially available "Pro Mix" type soils became available and were easier to use than getting loads of sand.

Even to this day, when I get loads of gravel the truck driver still asks "aren't you the guy who grows plants in sand?"

Excellent plants for bonsai were grown using the UC Mix of only sand and peat and you can see the results in many of the bonsai I've grown and trained for decades, five to be specific. Photos of 100 of the finest bonsai I've trained are illustrated in my newest book "Classical Bonsai Art- A Half Century of Bonsai Study" which will be released in June at the International Bonsai Colloquium. The 256 page book contains over 675 studio and developmental photographs of how I actually trained these 100 bonsai, including articles on root grafting, improving roots, approach branch grafting, origin of dwarf cultivars and many more interesting topics I've learned from trial and error the past 50 years.

But back to the topic. YES, healthy plants FOR bonsai training can be grown in only sand and peat. But, once in a bonsai container the mix must be changed.

There is nothing horticulturally different between a 100 year old container grown bonsai and a marigold in a flower pot. However, we must remember that a bonsai remains in a container for its life, while other plants (flowers, florist pot plants and nursery stock) are ultimately to be discarded or planted in the ground. Since bonsai are maintained in the same size containers for years, the soil structure must be different to allow for long periods of undisturbed roots AND being able to remove old soil to trim roots periodically. That's the main difference between container grown plants and bonsai.

Bill

PS: Before the questions begin, I'm still recovering from cancer surgery and preparing for Japan so don't have much time for discussions.
 
Good luck with your recovery and safe travels.
 
PS: Before the questions begin, I'm still recovering from cancer surgery and preparing for Japan so don't have much time for discussions.[/QUOTE]

Wishing you a speedy recovery and safe travels, Bill.
 
Thanks for taking the time to post, sounds like a good book for anyones library coming up!

Best wishes for a complete recovery.
 
Thanks hope your recovery is swift.

If you have time to respond I have one question. For bonsai in pots would you use tree bark pine/fir (not dyed) or would you recommend chopped spagnum moss as a organic component in a otherwise inorganic mix.
 
Add my best wishes for Bill for a speedy recovery.

Here in the pacific NW where wet long weather can be a challenge, I wish a soil mixture as easy as 50/50 could be used. I think weather can definetely influence a soil mixture and since we all have different locations no one sized fit should work for all.
 
The thing about soil mix discussions is that it it not just about the mix. Each mix is optimized in conjunction with a number of related factors - watering, fertilizing, climate, pH range of the tree, size and shape of the pot, etc, etc. I have seen people keep trees healthy in a number of unconventional soils including one quite poor draining soil. The temptation is to say to someone who uses soil like that, "Why make it harder than it has to be?" but once someone settles into a system that works for them, it is not just a matter of changing the soil mix. All these other factors have to be adjusted also. A fellow club member told this person that her trees might be healthy enough in her soil but they would be much more vigorous in a better soil. She said "If my trees are healthy, why would I want them more vigouous? Then I would have to deal with oversized leaves and long internodes." She had a point.

My point is this. There are good reasons for using conventional mixes but if what you do works for you, then it isn't wrong even if it is unconventional.
 
William N. Valavanis said:
But back to the topic. YES, healthy plants FOR bonsai training can be grown in only sand and peat. But, once in a bonsai container the mix must be changed.

There is nothing horticulturally different between a 100 year old container grown bonsai and a marigold in a flower pot. However, we must remember that a bonsai remains in a container for its life, while other plants (flowers, florist pot plants and nursery stock) are ultimately to be discarded or planted in the ground. Since bonsai are maintained in the same size containers for years, the soil structure must be different to allow for long periods of undisturbed roots AND being able to remove old soil to trim roots periodically. That's the main difference between container grown plants and bonsai.

Bill

PS: Before the questions begin, I'm still recovering from cancer surgery and preparing for Japan so don't have much time for discussions.
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Bill,

I too wish your total and speedy recovery.

Your post makes total sense and answers a lot of my (personal) questions. As usual, your experience, knowledge and means of conveying it effectively is amazing. I thank you for sharing.
 
Thanks to everyone for the good wishes, I appreciate them.

I would not use chopped up long fiber-sphagnum moss in bonsai containers. I think it would break down too quickly. But it probably can be used, but I personally wold not use it.

I think the best bark for a bonsai sol mix is the fir bark for orchid use. Yes, it's expensive, but its the best. It might need to be screened, but it does come in small sizes. Most people simply go and purchase pine bark mulch and screen that for bonsai soil use. It works but tend to be flatter than chunkier. Don't buy the cheapest brand. You get what you pay for...

The long-fiber sphagnum moss used by orchid growers is also better than the type available in garden centers and nurseries. The kind found in bales tends to have small sticks. I purchase long-fiber sphagnum peat moss from Lowes in small packages (looks like a loaf of bread) for about $4. I use it for the soil surface applications and air layering.

The orchid community is much larger than the bonsai world in the United States and has better material available.

Bil
 
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