One month of research and I have questions

[rockm]

"I have no interest in trees with huge chops. It screams impatience to me, which is the opposite of what I philosophically associate bonsai with: patience and reflection."

I can't help but laugh at this. "screams impatience" uh no. It's your judgment of them that screams impatience.

Few here have trees that were drastically reduced 20 or more years ago. I'd bet most haven't had their trees more than 10. That makes ALL the difference. That far along, all the dreaded scarring and "impatience" involved in chopping a large tree down to a smaller tree. Scars heal and blend in--they are NOT immediate solutions, or hell, even medium range solutions. They are long term solutions that have to be patiently awaited.

FWIW, take a spin through the National Bonsai and Penjing site, or a Japanese bonsai nursery site. There are hundreds of old trees that you would never guess had been chopped...

I get tired of posting this oak, but it is the result of a drastically reduced tree that has been grown out in my back yard for the last 25 years....

 

[colley614]

@sorce Junipers are only Shari and deadwood if Shari and deadwood are what you want. The OP has stated he wanted both of these to be informal upright trees. Maybe he doesnt want a ton of deadwood. Maybe he wants to achieve something similar to Vancehanna's well known erc but without the huge gaping shari down the trunk.

For a juniper, it is difficult to achieve if you let large branches grow out. If the OP stated that he wanted a tree with a ton of deadwood then Rockm's plan is ideal.

I see so many people recommending newcomers to do certain things with little care for their own goals and personal preferences. I have no interest in trees with huge chops. It screams impatience to me, which is the opposite of what I philosophically associate bonsai with: patience and reflection.

From your previous post and this if feel like you get the vision I have for this tree.

I was thinking I want a big juniper and maple in my collection that I have painstakingly planned and trained over years or even decades as the centre pieces to my collection.

I love the look of driftwood but it's not really what I envisioned for this tree. I was thinking of getting another juniper and repotting it in a Bonsai pot, styling it with some driftwood and maintaining it.

 

[colley614]

"I have no interest in trees with huge chops. It screams impatience to me, which is the opposite of what I philosophically associate bonsai with: patience and reflection."

I can't help but laugh at this. "screams impatience" uh no. It's your judgment of them that screams impatience.

Few here have trees that were drastically reduced 20 or more years ago. I'd bet most haven't had their trees more than 10. That makes ALL the difference. That far along, all the dreaded scarring and "impatience" involved in chopping a large tree down to a smaller tree. Scars heal and blend in--they are NOT immediate solutions, or hell, even medium range solutions. They are long term solutions that have to be patiently awaited.

FWIW, take a spin through the National Bonsai and Penjing site, or a Japanese bonsai nursery site. There are hundreds of old trees that you would never guess had been chopped...

I get tired of posting this oak, but it is the result of a drastically reduced tree that has been grown out in my back yard for the last 25 years....


View attachment 283691View attachment 283692View attachment 283695View attachment 283691View attachment 283692View attachment 283695

Stunning!

 

[Orion_metalhead]

@rockm, your experience is far greater than mine and I recognize and have learned a great deal from all you post here so my thoughts are not intended to criticize or go against what youve said.

My post was specifically in reference to juniper. On deciduous, yes, scars heal over time. You can cut off a 10" section of a tree like a maple or elm or oak and in several years have the entire cut point barked over.

On juniper, if im not mistaken, a large branch cut off will never fully heal over, or at least not in a reasonable span of time. Ive seen junipers in ground whose 1" branches have been cut off and even after many many years, the cut point is still visible.

This is why on conifers, juniper especially, large branch removal is associated with deadwood while on deciduous, it is not. No? I dont remember seeing a single coniferous tree at the National museum with zero deadwood except the hiroshima pine.

The point made regarding impatience is my opinion, but it seems we both agree patience is a key part of the art.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

From your previous post and this if feel like you get the vision I have for this tree.

I was thinking I want a big juniper and maple in my collection that I have painstakingly planned and trained over years or even decades as the centre pieces to my collection.

I am simply reading your posts and guessing your plans and intents are similar to the way which I grow my trees and appreciate my trees.

 

[Atom#28]

The future is already laid out in the trees past.
We must only read it.

Sorce

Sometimes I think you're Gandalf. Fucking brilliant.

 

[colley614]

I am simply reading your posts and guessing your plans and intents are similar to the way which I grow my trees and appreciate my trees.

This thread has been absolutely awesome for all the information that's been given to me. Photos, YouTube videos and articles.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@colley614
Going to your local bonsai club meetings is the best thing you can do for your trees. The more "in the real world, live in person" trees you see, the better. And do attend as many workshops as you can afford. Seeing technique done in person is priceless. Also, attend your local shows. A big learning point for me was seeing trees return year after year to the same shows. Bonsai is a 4 dimensional art, 3 dimensional space, similar to sculpture, plus TIME. You need to visualize how things change through time, in order to become good at bonsai. Unfortunately, it is difficult to pick this aspect up without becoming old in the process. I recently turned 65 and am feeling it. I started bonsai when still in high school, though I did not get serious until about 2002. So do go to shows, and attend club meetings, workshops and what ever other learning opportunities that you can afford the time to do.

Second point, you keep talking about plans for just 2 trees. I found I tend to over work my trees unless I have some 50 or more project trees in process. Often the best thing to do for a tree is let it grow. This is frustrating if you "want to do bonsai". You need to add another 48 projects to your collection, do it soon or you will experiment your juniper and maple to death. I'm encouraging you to get more trees, also vary the species you choose. Shimpaku junipers are great, and if you can't find them, Pfitzer junipers are almost as good. Try an elm, they really develop fast, will teach you much.

About the big 15 foot maple you were looking at, hopefully you passed on it. The problem with grafted Japanese maples is that some will air layer easily, some will not. Especially the dissected leaf type JM maples are notorious for refusing to air layer. What eventually happens, everything above the air layer point dies. So it is worth seeking out nursery stock that is raised from seed. If the JM has a cultivar name, it usually was grafted. Graft unions in maples almost always remain an ugly scar that is impossible to hide.

If you really want a named cultivar of Japanese maple, take the time to look it up in the forums here, or in Vertree's book of Japanese Maples, There are lists of which JM cultivars do root from cuttings, and if they root from cuttings, they will also air layer. Vertree's book has a list of the older cultivars, and on this forum you will see the occasional new cultivar which has a proven track record of being able to be rooted via air layers or cuttings. For example, 'Orange Dream' is not listed in Vertree's, but it does have a track record of being able to be rooted by air layer or cutting. A couple others that root from cuttings & air layer include, 'Arakawa', 'Shishigashira', 'Bloodgood', 'Nuresagi', 'Beni Schischihenge', 'Butterfly', 'Coonara Pygmy', 'Koto Hime', 'Kiyo Hime', 'Osakasuki', 'Ryusen', 'Shindeshojo', 'Shinshio Improved', 'Yuri Hime', and quite a few others. The list of JM cultivars who do not root from air layers or cuttings is much longer than those that do. So, before buying a grafted maple, do your homework. Most will not air layer, unless you can find out otherwise. Either they are listed in Vertree's book, or you find out from other bonsai growers who have experience with the cultivar. Bonsai orientated nurseries, and local hobby growers in your bonsai club might have air layer propagated maples. Your club is likely your best source for a maple for bonsai.

 

[colley614]

@colley614
Going to your local bonsai club meetings is the best thing you can do for your trees. The more "in the real world, live in person" trees you see, the better. And do attend as many workshops as you can afford. Seeing technique done in person is priceless. Also, attend your local shows. A big learning point for me was seeing trees return year after year to the same shows. Bonsai is a 4 dimensional art, 3 dimensional space, similar to sculpture, plus TIME. You need to visualize how things change through time, in order to become good at bonsai. Unfortunately, it is difficult to pick this aspect up without becoming old in the process. I recently turned 65 and am feeling it. I started bonsai when still in high school, though I did not get serious until about 2002. So do go to shows, and attend club meetings, workshops and what ever other learning opportunities that you can afford the time to do.

Second point, you keep talking about plans for just 2 trees. I found I tend to over work my trees unless I have some 50 or more project trees in process. Often the best thing to do for a tree is let it grow. This is frustrating if you "want to do bonsai". You need to add another 48 projects to your collection, do it soon or you will experiment your juniper and maple to death. I'm encouraging you to get more trees, also vary the species you choose. Shimpaku junipers are great, and if you can't find them, Pfitzer junipers are almost as good. Try an elm, they really develop fast, will teach you much.

About the big 15 foot maple you were looking at, hopefully you passed on it. The problem with grafted Japanese maples is that some will air layer easily, some will not. Especially the dissected leaf type JM maples are notorious for refusing to air layer. What eventually happens, everything above the air layer point dies. So it is worth seeking out nursery stock that is raised from seed. If the JM has a cultivar name, it usually was grafted. Graft unions in maples almost always remain an ugly scar that is impossible to hide.

If you really want a named cultivar of Japanese maple, take the time to look it up in the forums here, or in Vertree's book of Japanese Maples, There are lists of which JM cultivars do root from cuttings, and if they root from cuttings, they will also air layer. Vertree's book has a list of the older cultivars, and on this forum you will see the occasional new cultivar which has a proven track record of being able to be rooted via air layers or cuttings. For example, 'Orange Dream' is not listed in Vertree's, but it does have a track record of being able to be rooted by air layer or cutting. A couple others that root from cuttings & air layer include, 'Arakawa', 'Shishigashira', 'Bloodgood', 'Nuresagi', 'Beni Schischihenge', 'Butterfly', 'Coonara Pygmy', 'Koto Hime', 'Kiyo Hime', 'Osakasuki', 'Ryusen', 'Shindeshojo', 'Shinshio Improved', 'Yuri Hime', and quite a few others. The list of JM cultivars who do not root from air layers or cuttings is much longer than those that do. So, before buying a grafted maple, do your homework. Most will not air layer, unless you can find out otherwise. Either they are listed in Vertree's book, or you find out from other bonsai growers who have experience with the cultivar. Bonsai orientated nurseries, and local hobby growers in your bonsai club might have air layer propagated maples. Your club is likely your best source for a maple for bonsai.

Thank you for so much in depth advice. When I say 2 trees, what I envision is to big trees as the centre pieces of my collection. Around this I would like to collect smaller trees which I can work on more frequently. I currently have this little Juniper that I want to grow the trunk out on and then get a Japanese maple I can start the growing and cutting style to get the taper going. Around these two I was hoping on collecting a lot of smaller trees about a foot in height so I can get my collection going. Whilst growing the two big ones out.

My local club was absolutely amazing to be at. They did a repotting demonstration and I was given the biggest of the 3 trees a San Jose juniper that and just been dug up and given the opportunity (under extremely close supervision) of removing a lot of the earth and potting it in an akadama mix. You can read all the books you want but it's not going to teach you anything compared to having a chopstick in your hand unearthing a nebari.

We have all sorts of workshops coming up and I will attend every single one. We also have 2 exhibitions at the club and I'd like to help out in any way I can.