New Bonsai Rule

[Eric Group]

Thanks Eric for pointing out I don't know how to spell very well... if you must know, I also don't play basketball very well either... this is why I don't proclaim to be good at either. I am not sure why the need to try and insult me here. I am more than willing to confess that you are correct. And sadly, my phone which does obviously have spelling and auto correct sometimes just leaves a fella hanging. Often because I am trying to type alot I just am not paying enough attention to the fact that I spelled something wrong. Thanks, for pointing it out though! Will try and do better.

Oh get off the cross Stacey, stop acting like you are the poor misunderstood soul who was just trying to help everyone before you got jumped on. I was pointing out the irony in you misusing the word that most accurately describes the tone of the thread you started... I think that was made pretty clear!

The sad thing here is that had you simply stated your main point, it would have been a very productive thread!

So, to get back to the point of the discussion. It was my opinion, nothing more, that the same trees everyone has been brushing aside. Is really what alot of folks should be working on. That if perhaps we stopped telling folks to don' t waste their time with them and instead use them as a tool from which to learn from, and in all actuality encourage folks to do so, I think in all reality, one would find that one's progression in the art would progress that much further.

I say this from experience... because this is what I personally have been doing for a very long time. And it has allowed me to progress a long way in a very short amount of time. The trick to becoming better at anything is by constantly doing! Constantly practicing, no matter what level one is at, but especially if one is newer to the art...

This is a well thought out post and a very good point! I think people have brought it up before in other ways, but this makes sense... If people started out working with crappy material to hone their skills and get a good understanding of what makes it crap, so that they can eventually identify better material and when they start working on it, they will have the skills needed to do a good job with it... Yeah! Makes sense! Great post... Nobody is going to have an issue with that!

But... You didn't do that. You went on a multi-post rant basically calling the people who just PAID YOU TO DO A PRESENTATION FOR THEM lazy idiots who don't know anything! You went on to call out most all of the people who participated in the Boxstore challenge we had here... And on and on, all while maintaining a disgustingly superior stance as though we should all thank you for the condescending insults. That is just... Not Ok. Again, making a post about how beginners should learn the art? Great! Insulting a huge swath of people who participate in this art and talking down to them... The way you DID in your first post? Not real smart for someone who relies on this target audience to buy his scrolls and trees!

 

[A Random User]

Oh get off the cross Stacey, stop acting like you are the poor misunderstood soul who was just trying to help everyone before you got jumped on. I was pointing out the irony in you misusing the word that most accurately describes the tone of the thread you started... I think that was made pretty clear!

The sad thing here is that had you simply stated your main point, it would have been a very productive thread!

This is a well thought out post and a very good point! I think people have brought it up before in other ways, but this makes sense... If people started out working with crappy material to hone their skills and get a good understanding of what makes it crap, so that they can eventually identify better material and when they start working on it, they will have the skills needed to do a good job with it... Yeah! Makes sense! Great post... Nobody is going to have an issue with that!

But... You didn't do that. You went on a multi-post rant basically calling the people who just PAID YOU TO DO A PRESENTATION FOR THEM lazy idiots who don't know anything! You went on to call out most all of the people who participated in the Boxstore challenge we had here... And on and on, all while maintaining a disgustingly superior stance as though we should all thank you for the condescending insults. That is just... Not Ok. Again, making a post about how beginners should learn the art? Great! Insulting a huge swath of people who participate in this art and talking down to them... The way you DID in your first post? Not real smart for someone who relies on this target audience to buy his scrolls and trees!

Eric. dude... really? At no where in any of this is anything that closely resembles me calling anyone lazy idiots.
You are incorrect. If one reads what has been posted again, you will clearly see as I have been saying form the start that the issue
that was being addressed here is not the lack of knowledge but more why the lack of knowledge... This thread has been from the start
an issue of addressing the way bonsai is learn. plain and simple... I think that folks would be better off learning through a different route,
then the current one. That is all. Clearly you have been offended by what I have said and are bringing the whole issue to something that it is not.
And I will not participate any further down this route. Thanks!

 

[Bunjeh]

I don't hate my students... or think they are lazy, or any of the other things that folks here are now saying I said.
Did anyone read what I have posted, or just read what everyone else said I posted?
----There seems to me to be a flaw within the way folks are learning. which is why I posted this from the beginning...

Sawgrass: I read every word because I respect your work. And you are correct that our method of learning may be flawed. With the rise of the internet and the lightning speed of information, one can discover before unknown knowledge at the speed of a key stroke. But that is not true learning. It takes time for learning to take hold. For many Bonsai is bright shiny light. For others it is a foundation. It is what it is.

Keep up the great work.

 

[A Random User]

Sawgrass: I read every word because I respect your work. And you are correct that our method of learning may be flawed. With the rise of the internet and the lightning speed of information, one can discover before unknown knowledge at the speed of a key stroke. But that is not true learning. It takes time for learning to take hold. For many Bonsai is bright shiny light. For others it is a foundation. It is what it is.

Keep up the great work.

Thank you, you keep up the good work as well!
I think where a lot of the problem lies is that everyone is being so quick to judge what I am saying as a personal attack, that they aren't actually listening to what I am saying. Sad.. cause if they did, they might realize that I was not trying to be their enemy only offer up advice. Clearly though they wanted to hear what they wanted to hear.

 

[Eric Group]

Eric. dude... really? At no where in any of this is anything that closely resembles me calling anyone lazy idiots.
You are incorrect. If one reads what has been posted again, you will clearly see as I have been saying form the start that the issue
that was being addressed here is not the lack of knowledge but more why the lack of knowledge... This thread has been from the start
an issue of addressing the way bonsai is learn. plain and simple... I think that folks would be better off learning through a different route,
then the current one. That is all. Clearly you have been offended by what I have said and are bringing the whole issue to something that it is not.
And I will not participate any further down this route. Thanks!

No, I wasn't offended. You weren't talking about me as I wasn't one of the ones who was paying for your demo.. What I am doing is trying to explain to you WHY other people were offended by what you said. I think I tried this before in that same thread I referenced before... The one where you were calling people out for bad mouthing you? You remember that one?

My point is that you could have left out all that stuff that made your students sound like they were clueless despite their decades of bonsai experience and all your "not everybody is where I am at" chest thumping and your comments about how "sad" it is that people don't do things and see things the exact same way you do when it comes to attaining good material, and you comments about how awful all the box store entries were and how pathetic everyone's excuses were... You could have just cut out ALL THAT BULLSHIT that was basically spitting in the eye of about 75% of the American Bonsai community while simultaneously trumpeting how great and all knowing you think you are... And just said "gee if people started working on crappy trees to learn the trade..." made your point, and then all of this shit storm would have never happened!

That was all I was trying to say... And whether you came out and used the exact same words or not, what you a said and HOW YOU SAID IT, DID relay the message that you seem to think most of your students were lazy idiots and you seemed to feel the same way about most the people in the Boxstore challenge (who didn't take the time to find a good tree or... Didn't take the time to style it like you did?.. Or who aren't as good as you..? What was your point in even bringing all that up?.). It seems you are the only person who read those posts and DID NOT get that message loud and clear... Most of the people who seem to have been offended didn't even participate in the challenge and certainly didn't attend your meeting.... So, instead of arguing with everyone and trying to take the "I can do no wrong, so YOU must be the one who is wrong" stance, you might want to dial it back, reread it YOURSELF and try to see things from other people's POV. I get the impression that is not your strong suit, but I guess I just want to make you understand why this post turned into the ugly mess it is- main reason being: THIS SUCKS MAN. It flat out sucks to come to the forum we all participate in daily and see this kind of ugliness popping up again. It sucks to see someone who has some talent crap all over people like this. It sucks to try over and over again to explain to you how easily you could avoid this only to have you side step it, try to turn yourself into some kind or martyr or blatantly deny that YOU even had anything to do with it. This forum has had basically NONE of this kind of crap on it for a long time... Baring a few people getting sideways about the Boxstore challenge, the last bit of real ugliness I recall.. Was... Back before YOU "left"the forum the last time. You see the common denominator here?

I am not offended Sawgrass, I am not trying to offend you, and I don't think I was attacking you or calling you a bunch of nasty names. I just hope you can get your message across in the future in a way that doesn't start wars around here... Because we should be talking about trees, looking at trees... Relaxing and having a good time on these forums, not doing "THIS".

Good talk!

 

[M. Frary]

Who knew?

 

[A Random User]

No, I wasn't offended. You weren't talking about me as I wasn't one of the ones who was paying for your demo.. What I am doing is trying to explain to you WHY other people were offended by what you said. I think I tried this before in that same thread I referenced before... The one where you were calling people out for bad mouthing you? You remember that one?

My point is that you could have left out all that stuff that made your students sound like they were clueless despite their decades of bonsai experience and all your "not everybody is where I am at" chest thumping and your comments about how "sad" it is that people don't do things and see things the exact same way you do when it comes to attaining good material, and you comments about how awful all the box store entries were and how pathetic everyone's excuses were... You could have just cut out ALL THAT BULLSHIT that was basically spitting in the eye of about 75% of the American Bonsai community while simultaneously trumpeting how great and all knowing you think you are... And just said "gee if people started working on crappy trees to learn the trade..." made your point, and then all of this shit storm would have never happened!

That was all I was trying to say... And whether you came out and used the exact same words or not, what you a said and HOW YOU SAID IT, DID relay the message that you seem to think most of your students were lazy idiots and you seemed to feel the same way about most the people in the Boxstore challenge (who didn't take the time to find a good tree or... Didn't take the time to style it like you did?.. Or who aren't as good as you..? What was your point in even bringing all that up?.). It seems you are the only person who read those posts and DID NOT get that message loud and clear... Most of the people who seem to have been offended didn't even participate in the challenge and certainly didn't attend your meeting.... So, instead of arguing with everyone and trying to take the "I can do no wrong, so YOU must be the one who is wrong" stance, you might want to dial it back, reread it YOURSELF and try to see things from other people's POV. I get the impression that is not your strong suit, but I guess I just want to make you understand why this post turned into the ugly mess it is- main reason being: THIS SUCKS MAN. It flat out sucks to come to the forum we all participate in daily and see this kind of ugliness popping up again. It sucks to see someone who has some talent crap all over people like this. It sucks to try over and over again to explain to you how easily you could avoid this only to have you side step it, try to turn yourself into some kind or martyr or blatantly deny that YOU even had anything to do with it. This forum has had basically NONE of this kind of crap on it for a long time... Baring a few people getting sideways about the Boxstore challenge, the last bit of real ugliness I recall.. Was... Back before YOU "left"the forum the last time. You see the common denominator here?

I am not offended Sawgrass, I am not trying to offend you, and I don't think I was attacking you or calling you a bunch of nasty names. I just hope you can get your message across in the future in a way that doesn't start wars around here... Because we should be talking about trees, looking at trees... Relaxing and having a good time on these forums, not doing "THIS".

Good talk!

OK... it's late and now I am really getting confused here???
Cause it kinda sounds just a little like someone's feelings are hurt...

You know, that if you actually went back and put aside these feelings that you are, well feeling... you would note, that what I said really in all fairness is correct. Sorry. There really were quite a few excuses being made... There really was beginners that did better work than some of the advanced in the contest... and there really were folks kinda throwing around the notion that what we were doing was somehow not really bonsai... am I Right?
So, if they were doing this, then really what you are actually mad at would be that I what?
Said they were doing it ?

 

[sorce]

I'm back.

So the excuses came from the class?
And Then were applied to our Box Store Challenge.

The "rule" didn't come till the end of post 2. Kind of it doesn't make sense.

Eric touched on, no, no, nailed it with the retail comments. It is about business, when people start not buying, and telling friends not to buy.

I buy art from street bums, cuz they are nice. Not necessarily cuz the art is great. You buy candy bars from football students, not because you love chocolate, because the kid asked nicely!

Saw, I think You have many facts skewed which almost makes me want to revisit the Grim Meth theory.
After all, styling a tree from breakfast to Lunch and zing zing zing. That's a lot of synapses firing.

Hell just the amount of Typing here is questionable .

I don't get rubbed the wrong way a lot.
I think my new nickname for you will be

Ice Ice Baby.

Be careful!

Sorce

P.s. A master doesn't. ........
A Salesman doesn't. .........
And all the artists I've ever met were like, "dude, wanna hit this joint? " Of course I excepted, to CHILL THE FUCK OUT!

I cant think of an art that is meant to bunch panties!

 

[Eric Group]

OK... it's late and now I am really getting confused here???
Cause it kinda sounds just a little like someone's feelings are hurt...

You know, that if you actually went back and put aside these feelings that you are, well feeling... you would note, that what I said really in all fairness is correct. Sorry. There really were quite a few excuses being made... There really was beginners that did better work than some of the advanced in the contest... and there really were folks kinda throwing around the notion that what we were doing was somehow not really bonsai... am I Right?
So, if they were doing this, then really what you are actually mad at would be that I what?
Said they were doing it ?

Well hell Stacey I guess I am confused too, because I never said you were wrong! All I have ever said is that The WAY YOU SAID IT was wrong...

And no, my feelings weren't hurt man. Apparently some were, but I have a pretty thick skin and have dealt with plenty of Internet trolls in the past.
Edit- sorry, I didn't mean to call YOU a troll BTW... I Was just saying I used to be a moderator on a sports forum... They tend to be nothing but trash talk and fans of other teams coming to cause trouble!

 

[Cypress187]

Isn't that there are alot more people doing bonsai as before, and in the new technology-age more people are using internet and/or other lazy methods to learn this 'hobby' (not talking about myself orcourse . I think back in history alot less people where doing bonsai and they where alot more commited. Much people are just doing bonsai just to grow as a hobby and not so much proffesional. I'm going to hit a joint and chill out now, peace.

 

[michaelj]

So to sum up, here's what a struggling novice bonsai artist can expect to learn from this thread:

 

[Eric Group]

So to sum up, here's what a struggling novice bonsai artist can expect to learn from this thread:

Lmao!

Well, I think a good point was made somewhere in all this...

For the struggling novice- go get your hands on as much material as possible! Crappy, Ugly, nasty, cheap... Doesn't matter! Use it as practice to learn how to train different species, how too are for them and get them thriving... Then once you can keep your cheap trees alive for a couple years, and you develop a sense of how to style them AND what makes them crappy so you can identify the better stock later... Then you are ready to move on to better/ more expensive stuff, and you should be confident you won't screw it up by then!

I think that is kind of what he was getting at- Sawgrass please let us know if I am not on point..

I think it is reasonable advice honestly... Wire 100 trees, and by the time you wire #100, you will be much better at wiring than you were when you wired #1!

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Were you at the same convention with adam lagvine(sp?)
I don't know. I think you can give knowledge without expecting anything in return. Or teach without expecting your class to be experts.
Bonsai is a journey and not everyone has a mentor or is able to have access to great trees, great tools or been given instruction on how to use them. People come to a class to become more familiar with these and to see techniques they are not familiar with or comfortable with. If they were experienced they would teach their own session.
I think you're being too hard on the students- the very people who look up to you.
It might turn off students who may have been registered for your next event.

 

[cascade]

Ok... I just spent 9 straight hours doing demos yesterday at our annual bonsai convention... and was actually surprised how little folks knew about basic bonsai construction, maintenance, and care. I left last night wondering how and why things like cleaning out a tree, wiring a tree, using guy wires, establishing pads, trimming foliage, cutting branches, use of cut paste or putty, etc. Were not something that alot of the audience who had been doing bonsai for more than a couple of years, didn't at least have a basic understanding of?
..

Stacie, sometimes folks ask basic questions during a demo just to keep the conversation going and/or to see what your thoughts are on the basics. It does not necessarily mean they have no clue. I have experienced that quite often in the past. Congrats on your demos!

Best, Dorothy

 

[october]

If I could only offer 1 piece of advice about bonsai, it would be this. Learn the 5 styles of bonsai. Once you are familiar with them, then things will become easier and fall into place. After you know what they look like, go out and have some fun. Look at all kinds of trees at the nurseries and pic the one/ones that resemble the trunks on one of the styles. You often see someone posting a tree and asking what can I do with this. It is best to have a rough idea for a tree before you buy it. If you don't see anything in the tree, maybe leave it where it is. Now, this is not to say that you won't completely change your original idea or you might not be able to come up with something really good right away. Sometimes you do have to look at a tree for a long time to come up with something. However, if you are new or just starting out, it saves time and money to have a style picked out.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

Were you at the same convention with adam lagvine(sp?)
I don't know. I think you can give knowledge without expecting anything in return. Or teach without expecting your class to be experts.
Bonsai is a journey and not everyone has a mentor or is able to have access to great trees, great tools or been given instruction on how to use them. People come to a class to become more familiar with these and to see techniques they are not familiar with or comfortable with. If they were experienced they would teach their own session.
I think you're being too hard on the students- the very people who look up to you.
It might turn off students who may have been registered for your next event.

Thanks for the reply!
My post was not aimed at my students, it was aimed instead at the way folks are taught, as well as the silly notion that for some reason in Bonsai, we all have to act like we know something even if we don't. There seems as though there is this unwritten rule, that if you confess that you don't know something, you are just stupid and shouldn't be doing bonsai. I know... for I too have fallen victim to it! I have spent many a days when I first started off in bonsai and on this exact forum just repeating something, because I had heard someone else say something, not knowing actually whether it was true or not...but still saying it, and why? Because I didn't want to look like I didn't know something! and it's sad.

This being my first demo and getting to see folks respond to what I was saying and showing them was awesome! I could see the light bulbs going off in their heads! As if what I was saying all of a sudden made everything click! And it made me happy and proud!

There was nothing in my post was insulting towards any of my students that I have posted in this thread.
I was not hard on them at all... I have gone through this numerous times explaining what I meant by this and no one wants to listen.
My students were awesome! I loved every minute of it! I just think we all sometimes fall victim to this unwritten tough guy rule in bonsai which is sad.
Once the questions finally came, it was like a flood gate that opened and they didn't stop. I just wish I would have had another couple of hours to spend with them. And been able to of helped them more! Thanks.

 

[A Random User]

Stacie, sometimes folks ask basic questions during a demo just to keep the conversation going and/or to see what your thoughts are on the basics. It does not necessarily mean they have no clue. I have experienced that quite often in the past. Congrats on your demos!

Best, Dorothy

Thanks for the reply and the congrats!
I understand... and agree! However, I still believe there is this barrier that is sometimes put up in Bonsai, as I have just expressed in the post above, of not wanting to admit one does not know something for fear of looking stupid. And it's sad... For me personally I feel it's worse to go through not knowing... I would of gladly spent more time on discussing the basics.

Obviously, there is a learning curve here for me, seeing that this was my first one... In the future, I will try and pay more attention, and try and read the audience better. Hard though, when you are trying to figure out what in the world you are going to do with the tree before you!

 

[drew33998]

My take for what it is worth.

Amateur-A few hours on the weekend dedicated to bonsai at best aside from keeping material alive.
Novice- Several years of Amateur Status plus several years of Afternoons, Weekends, time-off main profession to seek knowledge and increase their skills and artistic ability.
Professional-Lifelong dedication. Dependent upon their craft for a large source of income

Amateur
Bad Material In= Output of Material equal to their artistic ability, however still not as good as a novice with less artistic ability
Good Material In= Output of Material equal to their artistic ability, possibly as good as a novice with less artistic ability starting with bad material
Great Material In= Output of Material equal to their artistic ability, at best as good as a novice with less artistic ability starting with better material
Novice
Bad Material In= Output of Material equal to their artistic ability and their learned skill set
Good Material In=Output of Material equal to their artistic ability and their learned skill set
Great Material In=Output of Material equal to their artistic ability and their learned skill set
Pro
Bad Material In= Decent Material out, since most professionals have natural innate artistic ability and a plethora of experience
Good Material In= Great Material out for the same reasons
Great Material In= Masterpieces

You get out what you put in. I watched a special on sushi focusing on a Master in Japan. When asked what makes one a maser he said " A master gets up every single day for years and years and does the same thing over and over, always trying to perfect it, without compromise."

 

[Judge]

I want to thank all of you for todays entertainment, keep up the good work. LOL

 

[j evans]

Wow, that was some reading. Don't know what I learned but I am sure it was something, I will just have to think about it. As with everything, practice makes perfect, the more you do the better you will be at it. Just so all of you know, I grow trees and try to learn and practice Bonsai for the fun of it. I realize that I will never be great at it, I will be happy to develop 3 or 4 good trees in having fun. And if I get lucky maybe 1 or 2 will be better than good. The main thing is that I do it for fun and enjoyment. I have enough jobs and the last thing I want to do it stew about it. I appreciate the people on this board and them helping people like myself who ask pretty basic questions, thanks.

Jamie