James W.
Chumono
Turface is limited supply and expensive in this area. Most people around here who would use Turface in other areas use ground limestone products.
Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822
- Thread starter sorce
- Start date
James W.
Chumono
Well, the product I had been using has been very good for at least five years. Very good for growing trees. Pumice and lava will cost me about 4 times as much. Since I spent about $250 on DE last year you can see how I might be reluctant to replace it with $1000. Akadama maybe 20 times more. I will be using pumice instead of crappy DE for trees I want to treat special.
James W.
Chumono
What I was using:
#1 As hard and durable as Akadama
#2 PH=whatever water I use
#3 I hate to spend money when I do not need to. I will spend the money if that is what is necessary.
The new DE is bad, just like you say.
Yes, if I were living in Japan it would be silly to use an imported, very expensive product to replicate what is available and cheap locally.
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
Turface works great as part of a mix. Less successful all alone.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
In recent years it has become less available. Many of the outlets that used to carry it no longer carry anything.
MimosaGroveMexia
Sapling
Very interesting thread!
I've been researching different options to see what's suitable in my area, as well as what's available. Lately I've been trying out the 8822, as well as this product from Tractor Supply, which I'm assuming is similar to the Opti-sorb, and it actually comes up when I googled Turface.
So far I've just used a 50/50 mix on a few things I've had to repot this winter, and will try it in a few seed trays & maybe a propagation dome to see how cuttings strike in it. I'll probably try some with the fines and some with the substrate.
So far I've only used it for a bougainvillea I was given that had to be cut back & down potted (couldn't fit in the greenhouse)as well as a few bare root trees I ordered, & some things I had to collect before they were removed/poisoned.
If they survive the abuse of the cut back & potting, I'm excited to see what differences I see from this blend vs the nursery soil mix I usually use for non-bonsai plants.
I've been researching different options to see what's suitable in my area, as well as what's available. Lately I've been trying out the 8822, as well as this product from Tractor Supply, which I'm assuming is similar to the Opti-sorb, and it actually comes up when I googled Turface.
So far I've just used a 50/50 mix on a few things I've had to repot this winter, and will try it in a few seed trays & maybe a propagation dome to see how cuttings strike in it. I'll probably try some with the fines and some with the substrate.
So far I've only used it for a bougainvillea I was given that had to be cut back & down potted (couldn't fit in the greenhouse)as well as a few bare root trees I ordered, & some things I had to collect before they were removed/poisoned.
If they survive the abuse of the cut back & potting, I'm excited to see what differences I see from this blend vs the nursery soil mix I usually use for non-bonsai plants.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Mexia = ma hair in texan! Oh, it brings back memories.
Anyway, @MimosaGroveMexia, I've been using Turface MVP for nearly a decade. I'm growing about 50 different species of trees in it. I get good root growth and ramification. Just don't use organic fertilizer with it; I use Osmocote-Plus.
A little bonus is that Turface sinks in water whereas most organics, including pieces of old dead roots, tend to float. So I recycle mine when I repot by washing it in a bucket of water, skimming off the junk. The grains are high fired and don't break down. Individual grains of 8822 tend to be readily broken with a strong pinch between your thumb and forefinger. You might plant two sets of trees, one set in 8822 and the other set in MVP to see which works best for you. 8822 holds more water and might be better in your climate that mine. Personally, I would use 8822 only if I couldn't get my hands on some more MVP.
Then there is pumice, ...
... but this is an 8822 thread.
Anyway, @MimosaGroveMexia, I've been using Turface MVP for nearly a decade. I'm growing about 50 different species of trees in it. I get good root growth and ramification. Just don't use organic fertilizer with it; I use Osmocote-Plus.
A little bonus is that Turface sinks in water whereas most organics, including pieces of old dead roots, tend to float. So I recycle mine when I repot by washing it in a bucket of water, skimming off the junk. The grains are high fired and don't break down. Individual grains of 8822 tend to be readily broken with a strong pinch between your thumb and forefinger. You might plant two sets of trees, one set in 8822 and the other set in MVP to see which works best for you. 8822 holds more water and might be better in your climate that mine. Personally, I would use 8822 only if I couldn't get my hands on some more MVP.
Then there is pumice, ...
... but this is an 8822 thread.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Do you have a photo of one of your trees that has been cultivated in this stuff the longest?
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I've posted a number of them in my albums. The acer palmatum air layer UR2 was layered in 2011 and has been in Turface ever since. The air-layer UR1 was grown in potting soil for 3 years before I moved it into Turface. My JBP 'Thunderhead' took three years to layer, the last in Turface - it has remained in MVP since 2012. My mugo #3 has been in MVP since 2011.
I've also posted a number of my trees in 'The Tree Thread', all of which are in MVP. Among them is this azalea that has been in MVP since 2008.
MimosaGroveMexia
Sapling
You are totally spot-on with the "ma hair!" That's exactly how I remember my great grandma pronouncing it when I was a kid. ?
The moisture retention is exactly what I was concerned about with the Turface. In the heat of the summer I generally need to water nursery plants in potting soil, at least, once daily; sometimes twice.
I'm planning to hold some hardwood cuttings back this spring to test different substrate blends in the Cen-Tex heat. The 8822 will likely be a major component for moisture retention, but I want to find out what, if anything, will need to be added; or if something else will work better.
One thing I'm still working on is pH maintenance. The alkalinity in the water is off the charts (as expected when I live in Limestone County), so i may need to consider some organic components that will help counter the alkaline water.
At least I have a good 6 weeks to brainstorm and gather components to figure out what may be the most suitable for the climate here.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Bark is good to increase water retention. Walter Pall uses chopped sphagnum (he calls it peat, but it not the peat in our garden centers). And then, there is Akadama too. If you haven't already, check @markyscott's soil physics thread and resource for guidance.
Many people get by using fertilizers 'for acid loving plants' that includes extra sulfur. Miracid may also take care of your difficulty. After that you'll likely need to become a bit of a backyard chemist to keep the pH right.
Many people get by using fertilizers 'for acid loving plants' that includes extra sulfur. Miracid may also take care of your difficulty. After that you'll likely need to become a bit of a backyard chemist to keep the pH right.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Optisorb is not "soft" it's just not calcined. I have stated this often. Calcined DE is fired quite hot and is better in every way for our use. 8822 is calcined but very small.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Actually the SDS is VERY specific with regard to exact chemical content, pH, hardness, water retention, temperature fired at and much more. It is possible that a bad batch of 8822 got through but I have spoken to the folks at EP myself and I know for fact what it is supposed to be.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
I wish I was still able to supply folks. I beleve DE is the future of bonsai. Maybe I'll be able to again some day. Look for AXIS brand DE. I don't think it is available in quantities under a semi-load but you might get lucky.
James W.
Chumono
I was assuming the DE is soft because it is not calcined, but it being hard is what makes it usable regardless of how it got that way.
I wonder if NAPA decided it was too expensive to carry the calcined DE? I did notice that prices had been climbing to about $12 per 24 qt. bag and this last batch was just $9.
I did find someone willing to ship AxisDE here. $25 for a 1 cubic ft bag + $62 shipping which works out to about half again what 8822 was costing. (1 cubic ft = 120 qt) Also AxisDE is INTENDED for soil conditioning, so maybe qualities are dependable. AxisDE is supposedly larger pieces, somewhere around 3/8".
I will report back in a few days when I get my sample bag in.
I wonder if NAPA decided it was too expensive to carry the calcined DE? I did notice that prices had been climbing to about $12 per 24 qt. bag and this last batch was just $9.
I did find someone willing to ship AxisDE here. $25 for a 1 cubic ft bag + $62 shipping which works out to about half again what 8822 was costing. (1 cubic ft = 120 qt) Also AxisDE is INTENDED for soil conditioning, so maybe qualities are dependable. AxisDE is supposedly larger pieces, somewhere around 3/8".
I will report back in a few days when I get my sample bag in.
James W.
Chumono
My calculations were off. A cubit ft. is about 30 qt, not 120. So after shipping, AxisDE is about 5 times the cost 8822.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Search my posts about AXIS you will get all the info you need.
I'm glad I got a box of @milehigh_7 stuff. Wish I'd ordered more. Sifted out great with dust measured in tablespoons.
Looking forward to getting it in some roots this spring.
Still using and reusing the 8822. You just have to sift it well and rinsing helps alot if you have time to dry it out after. I spread it on a glass picnick table for a few summer days.
Looking forward to getting it in some roots this spring.
Still using and reusing the 8822. You just have to sift it well and rinsing helps alot if you have time to dry it out after. I spread it on a glass picnick table for a few summer days.
James W.
Chumono
AxisDE Regular is a straight up replacement for 8822 but shipping makes it cost prohibitive.
AxisDE Course (like what milehigh_7 had) would be better.
Pictures show dry, wet and package
AxisDE Course (like what milehigh_7 had) would be better.
Pictures show dry, wet and package
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
It's good to see this stuff being produced commercially as a soil amendment. It is an encouraging development understanding that ants are a constant problem for me it would be a handy element to have around.
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