my crappy trees. years later...still crappy lol

[aml1014]

third said I should quit because its clear to him im wasting material that could be gold in the right hands

This is why my club no longer brings in "pros".
Apparently a few years back my club had a "master" come to do a club workshop, some people were beginners and only had box store material as that was where there comfort zone with working on trees was at.
Unfortunately, this master straight up told half the workshop that their material was crap and that he wasn't even going to waste his time. He went on to try and help the more experienced members at which point he was basically told to fuck off and that his comment was very rude. He left and has not been contacted by the club since.
You started about 5 years ago, same as me. I do understand what the master meant but nevertheless it was uncalled for. It took me about 3 years before I became comfortable enough to spend a couple hundred dollars on a tree. My skills have progressed, and so must my collection now.
You have some nice stuff, don't ever be put down by others. You are ready though to move up in material quality!

And as a side note. Any "master" that puts down a beginner let alone a group of them, that they are a waste of time, should be beaten with one of their first trees and sent back to do more training!

Aaron

 

[M. Frary]

should be beaten with one of their first trees

Hold them down and trim their toenails with dull concave cutters!.

 

[aml1014]

Hold them down and trim their toenails with dull concave cutters!.

I like that more! Lol

Aaron

 

[cbroad]

@Eric Group
You might be confusing me with the OP but that's very good advice. In the past (and to some extent currently) I've been in the same rut as GBhunter77. I guess I had delusions that I could (at my present level) create bonsai out of anything. I am now aware that I need better material that will be more conducive to bonsai culture. At my stage, I refuse to pay for "finished" bonsai, because I don't have enough money but also it's more about the growing and experience for me. I grew up with a father interested in horticulture and have been in the green industry for over 15 years so I've got the growing part down but I learn something new literally every day.

I have done some urban yamadori, but have had a lot of stuff die because I was relying on friends to water my stuff but that seems to hardly work out... I grew up near Jamestown Settlement on the James River and there's tons of Bald Cypress, I love them, they are one my top 3 favorite plants!!! Unfortunately I kill them if I look at them wrong; already lost 2 this year...

Right now I have probably over 50 plants, but not a single one is in a bonsai pot but I do have a storage unit full of pots ready and waiting!

Sometimes the harshest advice is the most needed advice!

 

[Gbhunter77]

I is nice to transform a so so tree into something one can be proud of. But thats just the thing YOU are proud of it. Do you care what others think?
if bonsais is an art form i think there could be artists that will not beknown in their time. There are a few classic styles that I think are super ugly. I do not want to post pictures in the event the artist is on here or related to someone who is. Thats where I only get along with certain bonsai teachers.
"This branch needs to be here"
Why?
"Because thats the rule"
what was done before this rule was established?
"Its just the rule"
My God I hate that! I want it to express something! Grantet my pine does not fit the bill, but I was told by an "expert" I contacted through face book the this pine is a waste of time and it will be dead by next year. Welll its been 6 and its a living plant. This type does not bud back its a pinus stroboformus but I do like it. I alse cant find white pine around here in Michigan. When I find a tiny speciment thr graft union is horrible.

 

[Gbhunter77]

@Eric Group
You might be confusing me with the OP but that's very good advice. In the past (and to some extent currently) I've been in the same rut as GBhunter77. I guess I had delusions that I could (at my present level) create bonsai out of anything. I am now aware that I need better material that will be more conducive to bonsai culture. At my stage, I refuse to pay for "finished" bonsai, because I don't have enough money but also it's more about the growing and experience for me. I grew up with a father interested in horticulture and have been in the green industry for over 15 years so I've got the growing part down but I learn something new literally every day.

I have done some urban yamadori, but have had a lot of stuff die because I was relying on friends to water my stuff but that seems to hardly work out... I grew up near Jamestown Settlement on the James River and there's tons of Bald Cypress, I love them, they are one my top 3 favorite plants!!! Unfortunately I kill them if I look at them wrong; already lost 2 this year...

Right now I have probably over 50 plants, but not a single one is in a bonsai pot but I do have a storage unit full of pots ready and waiting!

Sometimes the harshest advice is the most needed advice!

It does not need to be in a bonsai pot! Have fun, eventually you will get there. But remember IMO you have to make the tree the way you want if you follow everything from others to the letter you will end up with a painting in which all you did is take care of the canvas and held the brush while some else moved your hand on the canvas.

but im no pro and im here just like you.

 

[music~maker]

Too often we tend to slap a tree in a small restrictive pot before they should be in an attempt to "have more Bonsai". Development slows/ STOPS when we do that and that is what leads us to the point you described yourself in today- "years later... Still crappy"! Got to do something to change the trees you have if you want to keep them and improve them.

I find a lot of people starting out don't realize just how much impact the pot has on development, and they expect to thicken a trunk and develop major branches while it's in a bonsai pot. MOST things I see from beginner/intermediates should be in larger pots, imho. People don't realize that if the tree isn't what you want yet, you often need to scale it up before you scale it back down again. Which leads us right back to pot size ... scale up the pot and you scale up the tree, and often get much more interesting material to work with as a result.

 

[music~maker]

Everyone is always in a rush to have nice stuff... I have been doing bonsai for over 12 years now... and it has not been until just recently that I have actually been interested in having a nice tree or two.

Up until then I was only concerned with doing one thing... learning how to do the work necessary to create bonsai. It's nice to know how to do the work myself. It's also nice to know how to transform a piece of crap into something nice.

Couldn't agree more. I spent the first 10 years working on things that were rushed into bonsai pots, and they were mostly all crap. Back in 2005, when I finally bought a house, I decided to start over and really learn how to do all the work. I started with a linden stump I dug up from my front yard, and started from there. So now, over ten years later, I'm finally getting to the point where I feel like I can really appreciate better material, and actually know what to do with it, because I've learned how it got there in the first place.

I'm still not buying a lot of finished trees (developing them myself is the fun!), but I have been gradually acquiring nicer trunks to work on. And it's amazing the difference it makes just knowing how to let something scale up in a controlled way to arrive at the material you want to work on a few years later.

 

[music~maker]

I is nice to transform a so so tree into something one can be proud of. But thats just the thing YOU are proud of it. Do you care what others think?
if bonsais is an art form i think there could be artists that will not beknown in their time. There are a few classic styles that I think are super ugly. I do not want to post pictures in the event the artist is on here or related to someone who is. Thats where I only get along with certain bonsai teachers.
"This branch needs to be here"
Why?
"Because thats the rule"
what was done before this rule was established?
"Its just the rule"
My God I hate that! I want it to express something! Grantet my pine does not fit the bill, but I was told by an "expert" I contacted through face book the this pine is a waste of time and it will be dead by next year. Welll its been 6 and its a living plant. This type does not bud back its a pinus stroboformus but I do like it. I alse cant find white pine around here in Michigan. When I find a tiny speciment thr graft union is horrible.

Yeah, the "that's just the rule" people drive me crazy. Here's my rule: does it look like a miniature tree? Could this plausibly have occurred in nature? If yes to both, and if you like it that way, screw all the other rules. The traditional rules are really good guidelines, but they can also yield very cookie cutter trees when followed blindly.

Keep in mind that sometimes you can scale a tree up and it might work better as a larger tree if you're having trouble getting it to work at the size it's at now. Also, it can be amazing what you can get away with if you ramify the places you do have foliage really well. But ultimately, if you get value out of working on a particular tree, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.

 

[GrimLore]

So here is a interesting question. What is the goal here,i have ran into so many people in this predicament. They say of this goes there and that goes here. But when asked if they like their tree the answer is something like well it won awards and this guy whos some big wig likes it.
i have seen trees in books that have been called world class that I would not spend 50 cents on. I have also seen people put lots of work and love into their trees only to have others crap all over them. Thus which is better to like what you make? Or to make what others like?
im in the bonsai is art catagory (but thats just me). I have had 3 pros look at them I will withold their names as they asked. One said they liked some of them,one was in different and the third said I should quit because its clear to him im wasting material that could be gold in the right hands. I guess my aproach is im going to do things the way I know. I have books, some contain miss information (like pinching), i have dvds and will learn. Im not goin go to go into this mess again but all the of the pros suggested I stay away from the local club,except 1 or 2 people in it.
i have some trees growing I will post those pictures soon.

The goal is whatever goal YOU set, at your pace... I don't like the way "pros" treated you, that is disrespectful at best. If they have award winning trees and cannot remember how many years it took and how much money and give you direction based on your vision they are not worth talking to.

You are keeping trees alive for years in pots which is an accomplishment you should be proud of. If YOU want to refine them or just enjoy them as is - they are yours!

If you want to refine them or simply enjoy them AND refine or grow more - hell - enjoy it and don't let some snob piss in your garden...

I lost all back in 2015 all in various stages. It took over a year before I could grow anything healthy again but I am. I enjoy seeing them in any stage healthy under my care and really don't give a rats ass if anybody thinks I should do this/that/or quit. I do ask a lot of questions here and honest most all are related to growing a species I have not had experience with. Never been big on pictures either as I have seen to many chased off with harsh critique and again, I enjoy them all good, bad, or ugly...

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

This is why my club no longer brings in "pros".
Apparently a few years back my club had a "master" come to do a club workshop, some people were beginners and only had box store material as that was where there comfort zone with working on trees was at.
Unfortunately, this master straight up told half the workshop that their material was crap and that he wasn't even going to waste his time. He went on to try and help the more experienced members at which point he was basically told to fuck off and that his comment was very rude. He left and has not been contacted by the club since.
You started about 5 years ago, same as me. I do understand what the master meant but nevertheless it was uncalled for. It took me about 3 years before I became comfortable enough to spend a couple hundred dollars on a tree. My skills have progressed, and so must my collection now.
You have some nice stuff, don't ever be put down by others. You are ready though to move up in material quality!

And as a side note. Any "master" that puts down a beginner let alone a group of them, that they are a waste of time, should be beaten with one of their first trees and sent back to do more training!

Aaron

I am by no means a "Master"... and even if I was... you would never hear me utter these words about myself. One can never master anything... there is always more to learn.

I was teaching a class in which someone brought in a Mallsai of a juniper, with rocks glued in place...

Of course, this was laughed about and the owner was chastised for it...

I said to the class, that everyone is at different stages of learning... and that just because someone hasn't yet learned what you have, does not mean they should be insulted, or made fun of... There will always be someone who knows more about something than you do. That rather than insult someone, instead explain why and try and teach them what is wrong with it.

One of the individuals who was doing most of the insults... I then asked him to explain why he felt the rocks should not be there, and when he was done giving an answer to the affect of, "Well this is what I was told not to do..." without any real understanding of why... I then paired the two together and had them work as a team on each others trees...

The funniest part was that even though it had rocks glued in and was sold by some dumpy so called bonsai store... in all actuality, the tree had a 3 inch trunk, stood about 13 inches tall and was one of the best trees I have ever seen brought into a class! It had been constantly over the years trimmed in tight, so it had awesome ramification and tons of nice branching... And a better juniper than most groups supply to do a demo on...

So, the last laugh once the tree was cleaned, wired up, and recieved it's first real style... was had by the newbie who had just bought his first tree the week before.

 

[rockm]

I is nice to transform a so so tree into something one can be proud of. But thats just the thing YOU are proud of it. Do you care what others think?
if bonsais is an art form i think there could be artists that will not beknown in their time. There are a few classic styles that I think are super ugly. I do not want to post pictures in the event the artist is on here or related to someone who is. Thats where I only get along with certain bonsai teachers.
"This branch needs to be here"
Why?
"Because thats the rule"
what was done before this rule was established?
"Its just the rule"
My God I hate that! I want it to express something! Grantet my pine does not fit the bill, but I was told by an "expert" I contacted through face book the this pine is a waste of time and it will be dead by next year. Welll its been 6 and its a living plant. This type does not bud back its a pinus stroboformus but I do like it. I alse cant find white pine around here in Michigan. When I find a tiny speciment thr graft union is horrible.

OK, so here's the deal. YOU have an attitude too, which is holding you back.

You heap a lot of criticism on what "experts" think, about "super ugly" classic styles and get your panties in a bunch when the "rules" come up. You have to question why you do all of that. Learning is a two-way street. The student has to really want to be challenged, not agreed with. The "rules" aren't your enemy. They aren't even rules -- there are no bonsai police who fine you for ignoring them. Don't like 'em?, don't observe 'em...expect mostly mediocre to bad trees. There are excellent bonsai that break all the "rules," but mostly they're made by people who understand the rules and HOW to break them effectively.

"Rules" are simply a shorthand set of visual guidelines to create an image in a tree that "clicks" with the brain's idea of what a "real" tree looks like. Bar branches, a first branch that sticks out directly at the viewer, a trunk with no taper, no back branches...there are "rules" that say not to do any of that...In reality all of those things makes trees look visually shitty to the brain. They aren't in concert with the visual "signals" a real-life old tree sends to your brain through your eyes. Simple as that. Bar branches tend to look like crosses hung on a trunk. A first branch that sticks out towards the viewer , obscures the trunk, does nothing to add character to the tree since you can't see most of it because of foreshortening. A taperless trunk shouts "baby" tree, no back branches make a tree look two-dimensional. Rules aren't your enemy. Understand them, don't discount them.

Getting too emotionally attached to your trees can blind you, especially over time. You just get used to them and their faults. Sometimes only an outsider can shake you awake about them. Getting emotional about some of the things others see in your trees shouldn't piss you off, as much as make you wonder why they're seeing them that way. Art consists of communicating with OTHERS mostly, not just yourself. If you make a tree for yourself, however, then don't bitch when someone else doesn't like it. If you want to make trees that speak to others, widen your vocabulary with better stock (I kind of agree about the pine) and a little less hypersensitivity.

And yeah, I agree, there can be assholes in clubs, but there are assholes everywhere. Some people are in clubs because they like to control others, not because they like trees. Others in clubs are there only for the trees. Find the latter group, ignore the former...

 

[coh]

Well said rockm. But...there are definitely people out there who should not be teaching others. I have no idea who some of these "masters" are, how long they've been doing bonsai, how long they've been teaching bonsai. There are ways to communicate ideas without putting others down. I was an observer at a workshop with a Japanese bonsai master (true master, though I won't name names). One of the attendees had a tree that really wasn't very good material. It didn't have much structure to work with and wasn't very healthy - basically wasn't ready for any significant work. But the tree was discussed in a professional manner, ideas were put forth for how to get the tree healthy and how to proceed once that was accomplished...then the master suggested that the attendee bring in another tree (he had several in his truck). No hard feelings, no put-downs, but an honest assessment and on to another tree.

 

[rockm]

Well said rockm. But...there are definitely people out there who should not be teaching others. I have no idea who some of these "masters" are, how long they've been doing bonsai, how long they've been teaching bonsai. There are ways to communicate ideas without putting others down. I was an observer at a workshop with a Japanese bonsai master (true master, though I won't name names). One of the attendees had a tree that really wasn't very good material. It didn't have much structure to work with and wasn't very healthy - basically wasn't ready for any significant work. But the tree was discussed in a professional manner, ideas were put forth for how to get the tree healthy and how to proceed once that was accomplished...then the master suggested that the attendee bring in another tree (he had several in his truck). No hard feelings, no put-downs, but an honest assessment and on to another tree.

Oh, I agree that are people out there that shouldn't be teaching--see my "asshole" comments above. Some have nothing to teach, but the same stupid amateur-level stuff they've been repeating for the last 30 years.

However, I have long noticed a hypersensitivity among newcomers, which is more common than some will admit. There are more than a few beginners who get very very VERY upset if you even suggest what they've done is, er, um, not really all that great. Think of the numerous examples that have popped up here.

I've also seen "masters" offer extremely stupid or insulting advice. I've also seen masters offer constructive criticism that the student ASSUMED was an insult, or was so in love with their own work they thought it was flawless. Pride goes before the fall...

 

[Gbhunter77]

I agree. I like the pine however, others do as well some do not but hey. I just posted for people to see. I love that there is all this talk. Lots of learning. I have met "pros" whos only reason for not liking a tree is because it violated some rule. Im a published photographer and the photograph that got me in the paper violated several rules. But the photos that do follow "rules" I am able to explain why those rules are there. I have met only one teacher that sat with me and actually explained things, I cant remember his name he was from Australia and studied in Japan. All the other teachers I had gave me a print out of pages that can be found in any book and said make it look like one of these. Im also weird i the fact that I do not like mammoth trunks. I dont like sticks either. I can Pm someone an image and would like that person to tell me what Im looking at..but pm or email only as I do not want it public. Anyway here some of the trees I took shots of to

 

[Gbhunter77]

Here are more

 

[Gbhunter77]

Wheew thats it

 

[petegreg]

I like some of them, esp. last two - a pine and berberis are nice.

edit: ...and some projects...tridents, boxwood going right way. They need just some more time, growth, water and food.

 

[Gbhunter77]

I like some of them, esp. last two - a pine and berberis are nice.

The pine was something I got for 5$ . It was amost dead. I threw it into the ground for 4 years and pulled it out this year... also chopped it lst year. The barbarry was just thinned out to let light in.

 

[petegreg]

The pine was something I got for 5$ . It was amost dead. I threw it into the ground for 4 years and pulled it out this year... also chopped it lst year. The barbarry was just thinned out to let light in.

Now you can see, that work done on them is clearly noticable.