Mugo restyle?

[ABCarve]

Here is a mugo that I've had quite a while and from reading Vances posts...I've been trying to kill it for quite a while by treating it like other pines.
I have just let it grow this year and it seems to be healthier than ever. The 1'st and 2'nd pics are of the current front. Problems are it lacks any front branching and an awkward nebari on the left. The 3rd and 4th pics are the proposed new front which hides the bad nebari and gives some branching in the front. Opinions??
I want to shorten a few of the upper branches to chase them back.
1. When is a good time to do this to optimize backbudding?
2. When do you pinch the terminal buds?
3. Will the original chop scar ever heal or should it be considered chari and carved appropriately?

 

[Vance Wood]

I am somewhat hesitant to discuss this issue with you seeing that you have made an issue of stating that number one: You are familiar with my writings on this tree and number two: You have chosen to ignore them. These are all things you can do with my blessing, it is not written in stone that you have to grow a Mugo Pine the same way I do, neither is it written in stone that I have to help you do so. Why would I do that?

 

[Paradox]

To promote backbudding, I would candle prune the branches you want to back bud and hope the tree responds with buds where you want them next year. If all goes well and the bud start to grow, you cut the branch back to them. If you cut back those branches now you might (probably) end up killing them.

They will back bud on old wood (I've got 2 that have done so). Alternatively, can you wire one of the branches forward a bit for a front branch?

Pinching the terminal buds is to reduce needle size and this is generally done on branches that you are happy with the length of and you've gotten a good pad structure on. It is done as the needle clusters are opening.

Note: Candle pruning and pinching are not the same thing and have different purpose.

The scar will heal but it will take a very long time.

Its a nice looking tree and good material to start with.

 

[Paradox]

And Vance posted while I was posting.

Hi Vance...

Edit: I don't remember this tree being discussed before.

 

[ABCarve]

I am somewhat hesitant to discuss this issue with you seeing that you have made an issue of stating that number one: You are familiar with my writings on this tree and number two: You have chosen to ignore them. These are all things you can do with my blessing, it is not written in stone that you have to grow a Mugo Pine the same way I do, neither is it written in stone that I have to help you do so. Why would I do that?

Not sure what you mean? I have read a number of your threads. So far I haven't ignored your writing. They have only helped. I hope you didn't take my statements the wrong way. They were meant as a compliment for you bringing my mugo back to health. I guess I coulda said it differently.

 

[ABCarve]

To promote backbudding, I would candle prune the branches you want to back bud and hope the tree responds with buds where you want them next year. If all goes well and the bud start to grow, you cut the branch back to them. If you cut back those branches now you might (probably) end up killing them.

They will back bud on old wood (I've got 2 that have done so). Alternatively, can you wire one of the branches forward a bit for a front branch?

Pinching the terminal buds is to reduce needle size and this is generally done on branches that you are happy with the length of and you've gotten a good pad structure on. It is done as the needle clusters are opening.

Note: Candle pruning and pinching are not the same thing and have different purpose.

The scar will heal but it will take a very long time.

Its a nice looking tree and good material to start with.

This is the year that I let it go without candle pruning (ala Vance every fourth year). So wait another year?

 

[Paradox]

Have you candle pruned it the last 3 years?

 

[Vance Wood]

Not sure what you mean? I have read a number of your threads. So far I haven't ignored your writing. They have only helped. I hope you didn't take my statements the wrong way. They were meant as a compliment for you bringing my mugo back to health. I guess I coulda said it differently.

Quote from your initial post: Here is a mugo that I've had quite a while and from reading Vances posts...I've been trying to kill it for quite a while by treating it like other pines.

This is the quote that at first read seemed to indicate that you worked on this Pine like other Pines even though you had read my thoughts on Mugos and purposefully ignored them. I see now that this may be wrong on my part and I apologize.

Getting to a few points. When was this tree repotted? You also stated that you let the tree go on the fourth year. Does that mean this year or last summer?

 

[ABCarve]

Quote from your initial post: Here is a mugo that I've had quite a while and from reading Vances posts...I've been trying to kill it for quite a while by treating it like other pines.

This is the quote that at first read seemed to indicate that you worked on this Pine like other Pines even though you had read my thoughts on Mugos and purposefully ignored them. I see now that this may be wrong on my part and I apologize.

Getting to a few points. When was this tree repotted? You also stated that you let the tree go on the fourth year. Does that mean this year or last summer?

No need for apology...I see how it could be misunderstood. I guess it's this media thing.

It was repotted two years ago before I started following you. This is the third growing season. I was partially candle pruning before they were hardened off. It was ugly!! It's this growing season I'm letting it go. We may have to use the terms BV and AV. Before and After Vance.

 

[ABCarve]

Have you candle pruned it the last 3 years?

Yes I have.

 

[october]

I really like this tree. It has 2 good fronts. The side with the scar has less chaotic nebari. I am not sure if that is a postivie or negative. However, the first front seems to have a better overall tree structure. Either way, the tree has great proportion.

Rob

 

[ABCarve]

I really like this tree. It has 2 good fronts. The side with the scar has less chaotic nebari. I am not sure if that is a postivie or negative. However, the first front seems to have a better overall tree structure. Either way, the tree has great proportion.

Rob

I agree with you on the first front other than it not having any front branches. Not sure I'll be lucky enough for a bud to pop out there. Do they ever graft these?
I guess I'd like to see both fronts with the upper branches chased back and little more compact. Maybe I should repot it into a round pot when the time comes.

 

[Vance Wood]

I agree with you on the first front other than it not having any front branches. Not sure I'll be lucky enough for a bud to pop out there. Do they ever graft these?
I guess I'd like to see both fronts with the upper branches chased back and little more compact. Maybe I should repot it into a round pot when the time comes.

Many times the presence of a branch can be made by artistic wiring where a portion of an existing branch is allowed to fill the space the desired branch would be. From your photos you have another problem you need to address at some point. You have a few instances of bar branching. People can argue back and forth about this issue, some saying it does not matter, and others saying that it does for artistic reasons.

I can tell you it does matter over the long haul, when the bar branch assembly causes an untoward swelling that destroys the design and creates problems that you are either forced to deal with--- or ignore their consequences and be satisfied with a flawed design. You may get to a point where you don't notice the flaw any longer, but others will.

Believe me, I am the master of the "Flawed Design Bonsai". Good bonsai design is the product of careful and precise decisions.

 

[ABCarve]

The only bar branching I'm aware of is at the very top which I hope to address eventually with the right instruction. I have done the wiring to fill a void before, but I feel the smaller size tree exposes the flaw too easily. Maybe I'll get a bud!!
I want to SHORTEN a few of the upper branches to chase them back.
1. When is a good time to do this to optimize backbudding?
2. When do you pinch the terminal buds?

Can I shorten now without candle pruning or wait till fall or spring?

 

[Vance Wood]

The only bar branching I'm aware of is at the very top which I hope to address eventually with the right instruction. I have done the wiring to fill a void before, but I feel the smaller size tree exposes the flaw too easily. Maybe I'll get a bud!!
I want to SHORTEN a few of the upper branches to chase them back.
1. When is a good time to do this to optimize backbudding?
2. When do you pinch the terminal buds?

Can I shorten now without candle pruning or wait till fall or spring?

Here goes: Remove all of the downward growing needles. Remove all of the upward growing needles. Leave all of the side to side growing needles. Cut out all of the buds, new growth, extended shoots, what ever you want to call them, except the weak buds all the way back to the point where growth began in the spring. Watch your watering for the next couple of weeks until new buds start to form then water as needed. This will give you all kinds of new buds all over the place especially if there are needles present to fuel their growth. Provided your tree has been fertilized enough to produce vigorous growth, and it looks like it has.

 

[ABCarve]

update

Well...this is where I'm at now. I shortened a few branches (leaving a 1" stub)and cut back 2 unruly extended growths. This removed about 20 to 30% of foliage, even though I was going to leave it grow. I wired the top down to make a front branch, allowing a lower branch to become the new apex.

Next years buds are forming well now. When should I thin out the new buds??

 

[Vance Wood]

Well...this is where I'm at now. I shortened a few branches (leaving a 1" stub)and cut back 2 unruly extended growths. This removed about 20 to 30% of foliage, even though I was going to leave it grow. I wired the top down to make a front branch, allowing a lower branch to become the new apex.

Next years buds are forming well now. When should I thin out the new buds??

But--------You didn't do any of the things I suggested above? We are starting to get a little late in the season to be doing any of the things I have suggested other than removing all of the needles that grow on the bottom side, downward side of the branches.

The tree looks pretty good other than I am not sure it is getting enough light. Long needles that look unruly usually mean the tree is not getting enough sun.

 

[ABCarve]

But--------You didn't do any of the things I suggested above? We are starting to get a little late in the season to be doing any of the things I have suggested other than removing all of the needles that grow on the bottom side, downward side of the branches.

The tree looks pretty good other than I am not sure it is getting enough light. Long needles that look unruly usually mean the tree is not getting enough sun.

I should first say this work was done the first week in July. I wanted to leave as many candles grow out this year as I could for the health of the tree.

I did remove side to side needles last fall. That was advise from someone else. Do you remove this years side to side needles now or earlier?

When do you remove the excess buds?

This needle size puzzles me. Its getting full sun. I thought it may be from the years I was doing it wrong. The tree doesn't have very good ramification yet...so that may be another factor.

How short can the needles get?

 

[Vance Wood]

I should first say this work was done the first week in July. I wanted to leave as many candles grow out this year as I could for the health of the tree.

I did remove side to side needles last fall. I do not remove them at all, they are important in driving back budding down older wood.That was advise from someone else. Do you remove this years side to side needles now or earlier? I don't remove them at all they fall off by themselves early enough.

When do you remove the excess buds? In the spring before they open, I use tweezers to pluck them out.

This needle size puzzles me. Its getting full sun. I thought it may be from the years I was doing it wrong. The tree doesn't have very good ramification yet...so that may be another factor. It takes a couple of years for this stuff to start to work, at least one season and that is assuming you got good bud production from the shoot removal in July.

How short can the needles get?

An inch or less, sometimes, it all depends, be patient it does take time. The important thing is the unbelievable ramification.

 

[ABCarve]

I did remove side to side needles last fall. I do not remove them at all, they are important in driving back budding down older wood.That was advise from someone else. Do you remove this years side to side needles now or earlier? I don't remove them at all they fall off by themselves early enough. An inch of less sometimes it all depends, be patient it does take time.

Sorry...I'm a bit dyslexic!! I did not mean "removing side to side needles". I meant up and down needles. When do you remove this years up and down needles?