Marco Invernizzi's new tool - "Ichiban"

[Zenshi]

How much is he paying you?! Either your getting some kind of kickback or you just spent an awful lot of time you could have been spending making money putting this post together. It's been awhile since you've been laid hasn't it?

Congrats on the new job Zenshi

Right. It makes perfect sense that I now have a job after making one post on an internet forum. I suppose I was also involved with the fake moon landing conspiracy and was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll. You guys need to get out more.

rockm brings up a few good points though. Even at the national poverty level, $350 is 3% of one's annual income. You can set aside a dollar each day for a year, which fits into anyone's budget, and easily afford $350. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[davetree]

don't you mean 3%, not .03% ?

 

[DaveG]

Right. It makes perfect sense that I now have a job after making one post on an internet forum. I suppose I was also involved with the fake moon landing conspiracy and was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll. You guys need to get out more.

I KNEW IT!

 

[Zenshi]

don't you mean 3%, not .03% ?

Yup, you're right...fixed. Damn decimal point.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Z... for whatever appearance of an about-face position... I don't think it dilutes that you took some time to put forward a measured arguement, and a polite one at that. The courtesy is appreciated.

My take on it at this point is pretty simple... I don't think anyone is foolish for having one, any more than the notion that they are less of a bonsai practitioner for not. If you think you'll get benefit from it's ergonomic advantages (a lot of bonsai folks can suffer symptoms of carpal tunnel when you add hours of bonsai work to what one does in their regular work) then one should think about trying it. That should be the biggest reason to consider it. If it helps in that way... then that's pretty cool.

I can remember many mornings of trying to hunt down the Snap-on truck to get some obscure thing. They are warrented forever, and maintain their value for about as long... because they are guaranteed. So maybe there's a selling point in there for Marco to consider... providing a lifetime guarentee. That will often make me choose a higher priced tool over another... knowing that it'll be the last time I have to buy it... save loss of course.

I still think it's a must that one should have trees which well exceed the value of the tool... or it's like having 10K in Snap-on to work on a Yugo not worth 10 cents. lol

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[Zenshi]

Ah, dear Victrinia...just the person I was hoping for a reply from.

My initial response in the other thread was about the NBW marketing campaign specifically, not the tool itself. I have come 180 degrees on how I feel about the pricing of the tool, however. I'm no different than anyone else (despite being in the marketing field) and can suffer from initial sticker shock.

But more to my point...You are the owner of a Canon 40D dSLR and some "very nice glass". I would image that it is safe to assume that you have thousands of dollars invested in your photography hobby. Why?

As a shutterbug myself, I know why. I'm sure you, just like the rest of us who share a passion for photography, have had to justify your expenditures to others who think that a point-and-shoot camera works just as well. "I use a $100 camera from Wal-Mart and it takes great pictures, you don't need all that fancy stuff." But we know better, don't we? Do the enhanced features of a dSLR make you a better photographer? YES. There are some things that you simply can't do with a $100 camera. With more features, you can control more aspects of the photo and turn pictures into art.

Is the Average Joe who only takes pictures of his kids' birthday parties and family vacations going to spend thousands on a high-end camera? NO. Obviously he could still benefit from its enhanced features as anyone else also would, but the value/benefit does not outweigh the price to him.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Z...

I totally get where you are going with the glass reference... professional quality photography is a less accessible hobby for most than bonsai in many ways... because it often requires the purchase of insanely expensive equipment. To say I have a considerable investment would be very correct... and even with that, my kit isn't as extensive as I would like.

I wouldn't say that it's feature packed... in fact it's the leaness of DSLR that lets it do what it does with sublime precision. One doesn't need a bag of tricks in a camera if you know how to shoot light and have some sense of composition... and without that knowledge all the gear in the world is pointless.

However... having the best glass you can afford to buy brings that play of light and composition into stunning focus. Some p&s's are pretty sophisticated anymore, using software to make up for the lack of glass. But even the nicest moment a p&s can capture, can not replace the neuance of photos shot with high-end glass. There just isn't the depth of field, reach, or clarity.

I'm not sure this translates to the tool in some ways, it's sort of apples and oranges... but for photography, it is what it is.

Excellent tools in any trade/hobby/art are great... and often make things easier. Knowledge of what to do with the tool is more important than the tool itself though... so I think it's about making sure you are in a space to make best use of such a thing. I probably blew a thousand shots off my camera when I first got it, before I got something I was pleased with... but I had many thousands of shots with a camera a step down from DSLR before that. So I wasn't a noob by any stretch.


Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[Attila Soos]

And let's not forget something that nobody here mentioned so far: the joy of holding in your hands a beautiful, top of the line, well-designed tool. I used to be one of those who didn't care about the tool I used, as long as it did the job right now. If two tools could do the same job today, I would always pick the cheapest one. This was when I was a "kid".

Today, I have a very different perspective. Using a great tool is not just a utilitarian exercise. It is also an aesthetic experience. The way it feels in your hand, the way it works, it is a joy to use it. I remember when I bought my first set of quality Masakuni tools, and started pruning one of my trees.
It felt smooth and effortless, the joints were not too loose and not too tight, the way the pices fit together, it was perfection. I felt joy in every cut. Then I had to witch back to my cheap Chinese scissor, to do some root-pruning, and it was a drag, there was no comparison between the two.

So, yes, there are those of us who take extra pleasure in working with a beautiful, high quality tool, and it means more than just "getting the job done". Especially with bonsai, where I want pleasure and satisfaction in every aspect of the hobby, or I have no reason of doing it.
By the way, Japan has a long tradition of appreciating top quality tools. In certain cases, the craftmanship of making these tools crosses over in the realm of spirituality, and these objects become the focus of a certain reverence. A perfect Japanese sword is also a work of art, handed down from generation to generation. And there are other tools with similar prestige.

I know that this is mostly a male thing - women don't really understand men's love for a beautiful and perfect tool.

Note: I am not talking about the Ichiban here, because I have not used yet. But I am talking just in general terms.

 

[rockm]

"rockm brings up a few good points though. Even at the national poverty level, $350 is 3% of one's annual income. You can set aside a dollar each day for a year, which fits into anyone's budget, and easily afford $350. It's all a matter of perspective."

Well, OK...to put it perspective--a dollar a day for a year--it comes down to choices. The thing is, I already HAVE a set of pretty decent tools--a lot of them Masakuni. Tools I have spent years saving to buy. I've also spent a year paying for a nice collected tree. At this point, I'd rather have the tree that $350 would buy.

Why would I take the extra time and effort saving for something I already have to buy something that's only marginally better? I have actually seen and taken this tool out for a spin of sorts. I've said that it's a well-made, high quality tool. I don't think it's worth the extra effort to get, though, even if it is packaged rather extravagantly. I wonder how much the packaging adds to the cost, BTW. Marco ever think about selling it without the velvet and box?--Might take $20 or $30 off the price tag...

 

[mcpesq817]

My initial response in the other thread was about the NBW marketing campaign specifically, not the tool itself. I have come 180 degrees on how I feel about the pricing of the tool, however. I'm no different than anyone else (despite being in the marketing field) and can suffer from initial sticker shock.

Is it because you've entered into some arrangement with Marco? Not faulting you if you did, but full disclosure would be nice, especially given the 180 degree turnaround.

 

[Zenshi]

Why would I take the extra time and effort saving for something I already have to buy something that's only marginally better? I have actually seen and taken this tool out for a spin of sorts. I've said that it's a well-made, high quality tool.

I don't know, why would you? I'm not really sure why you're attempting making a point of this at all. New products generally aren't marketed towards people who already own an equivalent. If you're asking my why you should buy an Ichiban, I don't have a reply for you.

Is it because you've entered into some arrangement with Marco? Not faulting you if you did, but full disclosure would be nice, especially given the 180 degree turnaround.

Full disclosure? My background is in web design, search engine optimization, and internet marketing. I have not been paid by Marco for any kind of endorsement, nor have I been given an Ichiban. My initial comment that the tool was overpriced was due to ignorance on my part, not knowing how much high-end bonsai tools actually cost. After seeing that a single Masakuni tool can easily be in the $100 price range, and many approach the $300 mark, it put things in perspective.

 

[DaveG]

Zenshi, as I understand it, the fact also remains that you've still never used (or held, or seen in person) a single Masakuni tool. I think this is the other reason so many here find your complete reversal of opinion to be a little suspect. Or at the very least, a little confusing.

 

[greerhw]

If I disclosed on here what I've paid for some of my trees, 99% of you would call me a fool, you don't get someting of value for nothing, life doesn't work that way. You're not going to buy a 3K tree for 1K, If you want something bad enough and you can afford it, even though it may be overpriced, I say buy it. If you spend your life waiting on a bargains, you will never own anything. I doubt I could get my money back on most of my trees, there is just not much of a market in the US for expensive trees, but I bought them for me to enjoy not for resale to make a profit, ever tree I've sold to friends, I've sold it for what I paid for it. It's difficult to put a price on something like the relaxation and enjoyment bonsai gives me, it's a hell of a lot better than paying a therapist 300 bucks a hour. If you have 350 bucks to spare and would like to own an Ichiban, buy it, if you think 350 is to much and you don't have the money right now or you don't need it, quit bitiching about it.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[irene_b]

And let's not forget something that nobody here mentioned so far: the joy of holding in your hands a beautiful, top of the line, well-designed tool. I used to be one of those who didn't care about the tool I used, as long as it did the job right now. If two tools could do the same job today, I would always pick the cheapest one. This was when I was a "kid".

Today, I have a very different perspective. Using a great tool is not just a utilitarian exercise. It is also an aesthetic experience. The way it feels in your hand, the way it works, it is a joy to use it. I remember when I bought my first set of quality Masakuni tools, and started pruning one of my trees.
It felt smooth and effortless, the joints were not too loose and not too tight, the way the pices fit together, it was perfection. I felt joy in every cut. Then I had to witch back to my cheap Chinese scissor, to do some root-pruning, and it was a drag, there was no comparison between the two.

So, yes, there are those of us who take extra pleasure in working with a beautiful, high quality tool, and it means more than just "getting the job done". Especially with bonsai, where I want pleasure and satisfaction in every aspect of the hobby, or I have no reason of doing it.
By the way, Japan has a long tradition of appreciating top quality tools. In certain cases, the craftmanship of making these tools crosses over in the realm of spirituality, and these objects become the focus of a certain reverence. A perfect Japanese sword is also a work of art, handed down from generation to generation. And there are other tools with similar prestige.

I know that this is mostly a male thing - women don't really understand men's love for a beautiful and perfect tool.
Note: I am not talking about the Ichiban here, because I have not used yet. But I am talking just in general terms.

I could truly call those fighting words...A well made tool is something I treasure and will spend the bucks on each and every time if it is something I want...
My hubby learned a long time ago that when it comes to tools it is best to just shut up or go argue with a brick wall because I will buy them....
Irene

 

[Zenshi]

Zenshi, as I understand it, the fact also remains that you've still never used (or held, or seen in person) a single Masakuni tool. I think this is the other reason so many here find your complete reversal of opinion to be a little suspect. Or at the very least, a little confusing.

Just so I am clear on your point...It is perfectly acceptable for the many people in this thread to criticize and bash this product when none of them have used/seen/held it in person? Yet my credibility gets called into question when I rise up to defend it? Sorry...foul ball.

The only fact that really remains here is that (in over 42+ pages now) the actual owners of the Ichiban have stepped forward to sing its praises. It's indisputable, as those testimonials were written in their own words. Why are so many people bent on tearing down this product and its creator when not a single one of them owns it?

 

[Bill S]

If I disclosed on here what I've paid for some of my trees, 99% of you would call me a fool, you don't get someting of value for nothing, life doesn't work that way. You're not going to buy a 3K tree for 1K, If you want something bad enough and you can afford it, even though it may be overpriced, I say buy it. If you spend your life waiting on a bargains, you will never own anything. I doubt I could get my money back on most of my trees, there is just not much of a market in the US for expensive trees, but I bought them for me to enjoy not for resale to make a profit, ever tree I've sold to friends, I've sold it for what I paid for it. It's difficult to put a price on something like the relaxation and enjoyment bonsai gives me, it's a hell of a lot better than paying a therapist 300 bucks a hour. If you have 350 bucks to spare and would like to own an Ichiban, buy it, if you think 350 is to much and you don't have the money right now or you don't need it, quit bitiching about it.

keep it green,
Harry

Perfect Harry.


Z -it's human nature, don't sweat it.

 

[DaveG]

Just so I am clear on your point...It is perfectly acceptable for the many people in this thread to criticize and bash this product when none of them have used/seen/held it in person? Yet my credibility gets called into question when I rise up to defend it? Sorry...foul ball.

The only fact that really remains here is that (in over 42+ pages now) the actual owners of the Ichiban have stepped forward to sing its praises. It's indisputable, as those testimonials were written in their own words. Why are so many people bent on tearing down this product and its creator when not a single one of them owns it?

I was trying to bring sense to this for you and you should have taken what I said at face value. But I think it should be pointed out that what I said speaks more about your credibility from Marco's stated perspective than it does from mine.

 

[rockm]

"I don't know, why would you? I'm not really sure why you're attempting making a point of this at all. New products generally aren't marketed towards people who already own an equivalent"

This is EXACTLY who the tool is being marketed to--experienced bonsai folks who, presumably, already have a set of expensive tools. Masakuni markets the same way--as do a lot of Japanese companies (I used to work for a very big one).

There are--as I have come to understand it--entry level, mid-level and high end tools by most quality bonsai tool makers. The high end is very expensive and only a bit incrementally better than the mid-level. For the most part, as many things in Japan, the high end is as much a status symbol as it is a functional tool--nothing wrong with that, if that's what you're into.

Yet we're offered a sales pitch that says we don't really understand this perfect product. I understand it. It's a well-made tool, but expensive for those of us who already have tools, of mostly the same quality that are perfectly functional. I have yet to see evidence that it's such a "gotta have" earth-shaking product that will make me give up my toolbag...but, apparently not my concave cutter.

No one is really bashing the tool. Read my comments on its quality. My issue is what is basically a hit and run sales pitch by a master who is a bit critical of work here, then offers no help, except "buy my tool." ad infinitum... along with reports of how well it's selling elsewhere...

If you become familiar with bonsai, go to shows, attend club meetings, and generally talk with most bonsai folks (at least here in the US-but I'm pretty sure this is not uncommon elsewhere), they will genuinely and eagerly offer help and advice--even those who sell things (I might even say ESPECIALLY those who sell things). I point to Brent Walston, Bill Valavanis, any number of potters, and a host of other who have gone out of their way to offer something to the community beyond "buy my product."

 

[snobird]

After reading all the posts about glasshouses, centerfolds, the Ichiban, the price of the tool and sex educators I did a bit of deductive thinking and can only present the following marketing strategy to Marco. 1)Get the centerfold to strike a provocative stance with the Ichiban for an advertising photoshoot (why didn't you think of that?). 2) Mention that due to market pressures such as manufacturing there will be a price increase shortly and get your Ichiban while the price lasts and 3) people who live in glasshouses should not have sex parties.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Snobird...

You are exceedingly amusing. Thanks for the laugh.

V