Marco Invernizzi's new tool - "Ichiban"

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

This is what I agreed on...Eventually I may learn this damm keyboard or it may wind up in the trashcan!!!
I was in no way picking on BBG!!!!!!!! I am very proud of her speaking her mind
Mom

Well that's a relief... Please don't throw it in the trashcan... I would miss you.

BBG

 

[ianb]

"No, but is a little civility too much to ask for?"

No, but if you call people names from the get go, civility usually goes out the window. Marco is responsible for his behavior, not us. It was Marco's decision to pick up his marbles and go home in a huff, just as it was his decision to have online temper tantrums.

You must mean the NBW thread because on this one Marco didn't show up until after 20 pages of people bashing his tool (unintended double entendre there).

Anyway I wasn't really referring to Marco just the intimation that various Bonsai professionals (some of whom I know) endorsements were tainted because they didn't pay for the tool - now I understand I may have misread the post but that was my impression.

 

[irene_b]

How many have ever recieved free tools???


(shyt did I miss out?)

I did get a free tool from Dale Cochoy!!!! A Fantastic jin scraper!!!

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Anyway I wasn't really referring to Marco just the intimation that various Bonsai professionals (some of whom I know) endorsements were tainted because they didn't pay for the tool - now I understand I may have misread the post but that was my impression.

I've re-read my post several times at this point... the only thing I can think to add is that when I shop on-line... which is a lot (because I find running from place to place a bore)... that when considering the quality or usefulness of a product choice, I read the reviews of past purchasers, people who bought and then either praised or faulted the product's value or quality. This is especially important for me when buying expensive items like computers or camera equipment. So I've become used to being able to read the experiance of folks who thought to invest in the product and took the time to advise others on it.

The old fashioned marketing style of endorsements by famous folks is not a very useful marketing tool with me as a potential customer... because I buy something if it's useful and quality... not because someone in particular has one. I've never bought a shoe - jacket- jewelry - whatever, because it was endorsed by someone cool. I will however buy something if there is a really good review by an experianced person who bought one.

I was genuinely curious - because I would have read the review in a whole different way... and tried to be obvious that I meant no disrespect to anyone. That's all it meant... cross my heart. And further, I totally understand the need for Marco to have approached the release of something new in the manner that he did - ie traditional endorsements. I think it's matured at this point though to have that marketing concept expanded to those experianced folks who have purchased one. It's been in the hands of everyday people for months now... I'd like to hear more from them about it. Hence why I am looking forward to hearing from Attila.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[greerhw]

"No, but is a little civility too much to ask for?"

No, but if you call people names from the get go, civility usually goes out the window. Marco is responsible for his behavior, not us. It was Marco's decision to pick up his marbles and go home in a huff, just as it was his decision to have online temper tantrums.

"I thing we all missed an opportunity to have Marco here to help with our trees, it's too bad things worked out the way it did, bitching about the price of his tool, If everyone would have been civil, you could have posted a tree for Marco to help you out, now that chance is gone forever. I'm not blaiming anyone for what happened, but we all suffer for the rudeness of a few. Having watched him style my trees, I think he is one of the best in the world, and that's not to take anything away from the other masters and artists, whom I've never had the pleasure to watch."

It is too bad, but we missed nothing. We did suffer the rudeness of a few, including Marco. I really hate double standards. Why is he given a pass on his insufferable adolescent temperament? Oh, yeah, he's European and dates centerfolds... We don't understand...

Forgive us, we're simply unwashed Americans, we're like that, not suffering foolish behavior lightly...

Hey Rock, go back and read post 20 and tell me where in that post is what you call insufferable adolescent temperament, he was try to answer everyone, then the smartasses started up with their bullshit, everyone is entitled to defend themselves, including Marco. anyone who posts here is open to criticism, including Marco, or Walter Pall, but to bash his tool because it's expensive, having never even seen one or used one , is pretty damn rude.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Klytus]

No free tools for me either,i will persevere with this old fashioned ones.

 

[ianb]

I've re-read my post several times at this point... the only thing I can think to add is that when I shop on-line... which is a lot (because I find running from place to place a bore)... that when considering the quality or usefulness of a product choice, I read the reviews of past purchasers, people who bought and then either praised or faulted the product's value or quality. This is especially important for me when buying expensive items like computers or camera equipment. So I've become used to being able to read the experiance of folks who thought to invest in the product and took the time to advise others on it.

The old fashioned marketing style of endorsements by famous folks is not a very useful marketing tool with me as a potential customer... because I buy something if it's useful and quality... not because someone in particular has one. I've never bought a shoe - jacket- jewelry - whatever, because it was endorsed by someone cool. I will however buy something if there is a really good review by an experianced person who bought one.

I was genuinely curious - because I would have read the review in a whole different way... and tried to be obvious that I meant no disrespect to anyone. That's all it meant... cross my heart. And further, I totally understand the need for Marco to have approached the release of something new in the manner that he did - ie traditional endorsements. I think it's matured at this point though to have that marketing concept expanded to those experianced folks who have purchased one. It's been in the hands of everyday people for months now... I'd like to hear more from them about it. Hence why I am looking forward to hearing from Attila.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

I'm sorry Victrinia, I should have said that was my initial impression.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

How many have ever recieved free tools???


(shyt did I miss out?)

I did get a free tool from Dale Cochoy!!!! A Fantastic jin scraper!!!

Dale is a good egg that way... I've often gotten little sweeteners now and then added in with my various orders... he likes to be kind to his regulars.

BBG

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

I'm sorry Victrinia, I should have said that was my initial impression.

Truth to tell... I kind of figured that might be the case... but I figured - since I blew it so soundly - that I would be as thorough as possible with it... because if Marco got upset by it, and others as well... that I wanted to make sure there was a very clear reasoning available for others who might have also felt the same reaction but didn't say anything.

Intentions can sometimes mean very little if taken badly by the reader. I totally respect that, and so I took the time to be as straight forward as possible.

Thanks for saying something when you did... because I would not have wanted that sort of thought to be lingering out there.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia

 

[Marco Invernizzi]

I have been told I had a couple of private messages so I came back to check them out and I saw more than 16.000 hits of the ICHIBAN thread, and I fell sorry for the others that have between 1 and 50.
Jason is right.

I haven't written my last post so to reply to Vicky, who btw has been so kind to send me a couple of very appreciated emails to explain her point of view and I have really nothing agaist her.
That post for everybody.
Master Kimura used to tell me: " being a bonsai artist has to do with with everything except laziness "
So I was pointing out the hopeless shortage of real curiosity among many of you regarding ICHIBAN.

So now I said something direct to all of you but I NEVER CALLED BNW YOU OR ALL THE BONSAI BLOGGER, it's a lie, read what I wrote and be ashame of yourself to accuse of something different from the truth. I exagerate the profile of a very atipical bonsai blogger so to make all understand that I think it's better to spend time with bonsai tool in hands instead of typing on keyboard. Thousands of people laughed about it. Few others don't have much of a sense of humor I'm afraid...

I'm sorry if I disappoint somebody by not contributing with threads and picture to your or any other blogs, but I kindly ask you to understand that bonsai is what I do for living. Today for example I worked 9 hours on some trees of the best bonsai collection in USA, the same yesterday, the same the day before. The last day off was almost 60 days ago. So when I'm off work I really don't find the strenght to post anything. I do a bit of facebook and I keep up with my business but that's all I have left to give to a computer. I hope you understand.

Now I don't want anybody to think that I pick just on women but Miss Yamadori I do kindly ask you to never put my name and the word idiot in the same sentence ever again. So far I proved to be right because I got lots of pubblicity and sales are just rising stronger. But if you really cannot resist to use the word idiot around my name, next time you do it please post a picture of one of your bonsai so we'll see who is the real idiot.
BTW guys, she is a sex teacher, that's something interesting we can blog about , and then we all gonna be W....R

Goodbye, tomorrow I'm going to Atlanta for the big show, please join me if you are in the area!

 

[bwaynef]

In the 2nd and 4th advertisements for Ichiban (on marco's website), I see concave cutters pictured. The advertising leads me to believe that the ichiban performs that functionality ("All in One, One for All"). I've searched thru his website and don't see where it does that.

Marco (if you're still perusing bN), or anyone who has one or has seen it (in action): ...does it perform concave cuts?

 

[greerhw]

In the 2nd and 4th advertisements for Ichiban (on marco's website), I see concave cutters pictured. The advertising leads me to believe that the ichiban performs that functionality ("All in One, One for All"). I've searched thru his website and don't see where it does that.

Marco (if you're still perusing bN), or anyone who has one or has seen it (in action): ...does it perform concave cuts?

I watched Marco use it for over 60 hours and no, you still a concave cutter.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[greerhw]

In the 2nd and 4th advertisements for Ichiban (on marco's website), I see concave cutters pictured. The advertising leads me to believe that the ichiban performs that functionality ("All in One, One for All"). I've searched thru his website and don't see where it does that.

Marco (if you're still perusing bN), or anyone who has one or has seen it (in action): ...does it perform concave cuts?

I watched Marco use it for over 60 hours and no, you still a concave cutter or knob cutter for large branches and roots.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Zenshi]

This thread makes me LOL.

First and foremost, $350 is not a lot of money by anyone's standards in the United States. No one reading these forums is impoverished. The main objection about price is incorrect, it is about value, which is subject to individual interpretation. The Ichiban is selling just fine at this price all over the world, so to say that it is overpriced is also a false claim.

I have recently performed market research for Lowe's Home Improvement, so the following data is accurate: Most (over 70%) of men agree that when it comes to tools, they prefer higher quality and brand recognition over sticker prices. Craftsman, Snap-On, and Mac are all high end tools that sell extremely well in the United States, much more than cheaper (including store brand) tools. Most (over 85%) also agree that price is indicative of quality when it comes to tools. With many resources at my disposal, I have not been able to locate a credible source for this information that is specific to the bonsai tool industry. However, it makes sense that the above numbers would translate here. Simply replace Craftsman, Snap-On, and Mac with Masakuni and others.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the Ichiban is in fact a high quality tool produced by a leading manufacturer, and worth the asking price. Does the Ichiban really perform well? Professional bonsai artists the world over who have used the tool say yes. Those who have purchased the tool themselves also say yes.

I also think that a vast majority of the critics are overlooking other features of the tool, particularly the ergonomic design. Tools are simple things: They are designed to have as few moving parts as possible to perform a task as efficiently as possible. With exceptions to aesthetics, just about everything is designed with this in mind. Ergonomics takes into account human interaction, and seeks to perform the same task, only with a focus on relieving stress injuries.

The Ichiban does not contain additional parts, as many other multi-tools often do. The weakest points of any trimming/pruning tools are the points and the joint/rivet. The Ichiban addresses both of these in a convincing manner with beefy tips that also serve as a chisel and a rivet 4x larger than conventional tools that also allows for wire cutting.

Now, for the real matter at hand: value. Does this product have mass market appeal across all sectors of the bonsai market? YES. Why? Any market, no matter the product or industry, invariably has at least 3 sectors:

• Hobbyist
• Enthusiast
• Professional

Bonsai, photography, bloggers, just about anything all share these sectors. The above are listed in order of numbers/popularity, and income derived directly from the market. Hobbyists are entry-level people or part-timers who enjoy the industry mostly as a recreational activity. Enthusiasts by and large have more time and money invested and usually earn a small income on related products or services. Professionals earn a majority or all of their income in industry-related activities. It is also true that most hobbyists want "what the pros use" and a good majority of them do own some of the same products.

Most participants of this forum fall into the hobbyist category. We buy nursery trees and have small collections. Most can see the value in owning a set of high-end tools, but few are able to justify spending $350 on a single tool that may be lost or stolen. Some people are unable to properly care for and maintain their tools and don't want to risk losing their investment...which is why they continually buy cheap replacements. And yes, there are a lot of hobbyists who believe that owning a high end product will make them better at their craft. While quality products do make a difference, studies have also shown that most people perform better because their confidence is higher. There is value in owning a quality product.

The bottom line here is: the Ichiban is a quality product that performs well, was designed by an industry leader, and is backed by other industry leaders. I have yet to read a negative review of this product from someone who actually owns and uses it.

 

[cquinn]

This thread makes me LOL.

First and foremost, $350 is not a lot of money by anyone's standards in the United States. No one reading these forums is impoverished. The main objection about price is incorrect, it is about value, which is subject to individual interpretation. The Ichiban is selling just fine at this price all over the world, so to say that it is overpriced is also a false claim.

I have recently performed market research for Lowe's Home Improvement, so the following data is accurate: Most (over 70%) of men agree that when it comes to tools, they prefer higher quality and brand recognition over sticker prices. Craftsman, Snap-On, and Mac are all high end tools that sell extremely well in the United States, much more than cheaper (including store brand) tools. Most (over 85%) also agree that price is indicative of quality when it comes to tools. With many resources at my disposal, I have not been able to locate a credible source for this information that is specific to the bonsai tool industry. However, it makes sense that the above numbers would translate here. Simply replace Craftsman, Snap-On, and Mac with Masakuni and others.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the Ichiban is in fact a high quality tool produced by a leading manufacturer, and worth the asking price. Does the Ichiban really perform well? Professional bonsai artists the world over who have used the tool say yes. Those who have purchased the tool themselves also say yes.

I also think that a vast majority of the critics are overlooking other features of the tool, particularly the ergonomic design. Tools are simple things: They are designed to have as few moving parts as possible to perform a task as efficiently as possible. With exceptions to aesthetics, just about everything is designed with this in mind. Ergonomics takes into account human interaction, and seeks to perform the same task, only with a focus on relieving stress injuries.

The Ichiban does not contain additional parts, as many other multi-tools often do. The weakest points of any trimming/pruning tools are the points and the joint/rivet. The Ichiban addresses both of these in a convincing manner with beefy tips that also serve as a chisel and a rivet 4x larger than conventional tools that also allows for wire cutting.

Now, for the real matter at hand: value. Does this product have mass market appeal across all sectors of the bonsai market? YES. Why? Any market, no matter the product or industry, invariably has at least 3 sectors:

• Hobbyist
• Enthusiast
• Professional

Bonsai, photography, bloggers, just about anything all share these sectors. The above are listed in order of numbers/popularity, and income derived directly from the market. Hobbyists are entry-level people or part-timers who enjoy the industry mostly as a recreational activity. Enthusiasts by and large have more time and money invested and usually earn a small income on related products or services. Professionals earn a majority or all of their income in industry-related activities. It is also true that most hobbyists want "what the pros use" and a good majority of them do own some of the same products.

Most participants of this forum fall into the hobbyist category. We buy nursery trees and have small collections. Most can see the value in owning a set of high-end tools, but few are able to justify spending $350 on a single tool that may be lost or stolen. Some people are unable to properly care for and maintain their tools and don't want to risk losing their investment...which is why they continually buy cheap replacements. And yes, there are a lot of hobbyists who believe that owning a high end product will make them better at their craft. While quality products do make a difference, studies have also shown that most people perform better because their confidence is higher. There is value in owning a quality product.

The bottom line here is: the Ichiban is a quality product that performs well, was designed by an industry leader, and is backed by other industry leaders. I have yet to read a negative review of this product from someone who actually owns and uses it.

How much is he paying you?! Either your getting some kind of kickback or you just spent an awful lot of time you could have been spending making money putting this post together. It's been awhile since you've been laid hasn't it?

 

[Tachigi]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenshi View Post
Interesting thread, on many levels.

I am an internet marketer with degrees in marketing and e-commerce, and also a specialization in social media. This thread would make a very good case study for the results of net marketing and PR. Here are some observations from a casual onlooker:

1: Marco. Frankly, you sound like a cough medicine barker from days gone by. I can just see you standing on a soapbox shouting to the masses about Grandpa's Wonder Elixir and how it's the greatest thing the world has ever known. You are no different than any other inventor who has toiled and sweat over a product. The difference is you and your approach to the whole thing. What you haven't realized, is that people are buying you as much as they are the Ichiban. YOU are the brand identity in question here, not the product itself. This is a niche market and being a part of the community is very important, which doesn't include copping an attitude on the forums.

2: Ichiban. The tool is over-priced, period. No single tool, no matter how well designed, is ever going to replace an entire tool set. I don't care if it's made of aerospace grade titanium, diamond plated, and guaranteed for life...people aren't going to be lining up to buy single $350 tool. Multi-purpose tools are largely fad items and most realize that if they have a $350 budget, it would be a better investment to buy a set vs. a single tool. There is simply not enough value to outweigh the price point.

3: Marketing. The general approach of this campaign is, "If you don't own this product, you're a wanker." Not very smart. In the digital age of word of mouse marketing, a few clicks and negative reviews of you and your product can spread across the planet in mere minutes. It's awesome that you've created something innovative and new, and that you're excited about it. But being confrontational and condescending towards your target market is not a bright move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Invernizzi View Post
Victrina,
Zenshi, thank you very much to find the time to share your expertise and business knowledge with all of us.
I learn a long while ago that the best thing a business man can do it to listen. So if you think you have a better strategy then mine.... everybody is witness, I offer you a job.
The target is to increase sales of 5000 ICHIBAN sold ( and payed ) in 3 years. Either wholesale or retail. I will pay you $10.000 per year for your consulting.
But if we don't get over 1000 ICHIBAN sold you will get only 10% of the profit.
If we don't get over 500 ICHIBAN sold you will get your 10% of the profit from which I will take away the cost price of all the ICHIBAN given away.

Congrats on the new job Zenshi

 

[rockm]

"$350 is not a lot of money by anyone's standards in the United States. No one reading these forums is impoverished. The main objection about price is incorrect."

Huh? You serious? Yeah, it's a lot of money. Impoverished? No...Pressured financially? Heck yes. That amount would be a substantial portion of my mortgage, or a payment on my son's braces, or a major repair (God Forbid) on my 12 year old truck...I don't know what fantasy world you're living in, but even in good times THAT'S a lot of money.

"However, it makes sense that the above numbers would translate here. Simply replace Craftsman, Snap-On, and Mac with Masakuni and others."

This is quite a leap. The tools you're talking about are NOT hobbyist tools. Bonsai tools are basically luxury items, bought with discretionary income. The same is certainly NOT true of everyday tools at a big box hardware store. Some portion of that market (I have no idea how much) is due to necessity and is not discretionary--a broken water heater requires fixing, as do water damage walls. There's no real decision to be made there. Stuff has to be fixed. Tools have to be purchased to do it. Also, I know of more than a few professional contractors that purchase their tools at big box hardware stores. That alone would tend to skew your number comparison.

Sure, quality tools are worth money. Quality bonsai tools sure are. That's why I have invested about $350 over the last five years or so in quality bonsai tools. I see no reason to replace those quality tools given the tight economy and my sore bank account.

 

[mcpesq817]

Congrats on the new job Zenshi

I was thinking the same exact thing

 

[DaveG]

Just in case anyone wanted a link to some of the original discussion:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?p=51562#post51562

 

[treebeard55]

Zenshi, thanks very much for your comments. You're the first one, I think, to address this matter from the perspective of a knowledgeable market researcher. What you say is helpful in rounding out the picture, particularly for someone like me who doesn't have the training to assess the market appeal as you've done.

I disagree with you on one side point: whether or not any of us are "impoverished" depends a lot on your definition of poverty! There are some of us who don't have much discretionary income, but love the art enough to practice it anyway, and to find ways to acquire stock without much monetary layout. ("I couldn't help but notice that your yew has been damaged. If I take it out for you, may I have it?") You make a convincing point that the ichiban is worth $350, Zenshi; but for some of us, the $350 simply ain't there!

I can't help but believe that some of the opposition to the ichiban is culturally-based. Marco, like many Italians, comes across to many Americans as excessively cocky, when in his own cultural context he is merely self-confident. This misperception -- and it is a misperception -- not only irritates sometimes, but undermines confidence in his judgment: "if he's unjustifiably cocky about such-and-such, he'll be unjustifiably cocky about the ichiban." And we do want quality in our tools. (My wife can't quite understand why I'm willing to pay a little more for a Mac wrench when a discount brand saves a bit of money! )

But, having grown up in another Latin-derived culture (South America,) I don't believe Marco is hubristic, just self-confident, as I said. With that understood, the fears about overconfidence-on-steroids go out the window. One is then better able to appreciate Marco's own experience, and the expertise of the Masakuni company. Frankly, I can't believe Masakuni would invest its money in R&D, and then go on to manufacture, if they had any real doubts about the tool!