Kong vs. Pall bonsai-duel

[HotAction]

Would a master baiter be required to raise and breed minnows and worms?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

In Atilla terms, no one could be a master carpenter unless you were fully trained in how to fall a tree in the forest.

According to "This Old House" they consider a Master Carpenter (Norm Abram) to be someone "qualified to teach other teachers". The term "master carpenter" does not exist as a formal proficiency or skill definition in the US; however in Japan or Germany it is the result of a difficult and expensive certification process that requires extensive demonstration of skill as well as knowledge of business and regulatory subjects. You are generally required to hold a master's certification to employ and train apprentices.

 

[JasonG]

Would a master baiter be required to raise and breed minnows and worms?

Hot Action said "Master Baiter" hehehehe

 

[Smoke]

According to "This Old House" they consider a Master Carpenter (Norm Abram) to be someone "qualified to teach other teachers". The term "master carpenter" does not exist as a formal proficiency or skill definition in the US; however in Japan or Germany it is the result of a difficult and expensive certification process that requires extensive demonstration of skill as well as knowledge of business and regulatory subjects. You are generally required to hold a master's certification to employ and train apprentices.

In America we call them Journeyman Carpenters. As such they are qualified to teach in the prison system, and become city and county inspectors with out further instruction with the exception of passing a test. We also call master mechanics journeymen. I used master carpenter to keep with the whole master theme.

Currently in America the term Journeyman carpenter is pretty much out of vogue for the last 20 years as most of the residential unions no longer exist. I belonged to such a union in 1972 when I went thru my 5 year apprenticeship to become a journeyman carpenter. Being a well rounded carpenter able to perform many skills in not in as much demand today as it was in the past. The term trades has taken over and many builders will sub the work out to individual trades such as framers, sheetrockers, plumbers, electricians and finish carpenters. Some commercial unions do exist today and they do offer apprenticeships but they are far and few between. Today with enough money and a cram school a layman can get his contractors license without even knowing which end of the hammer to pound with.

In some ways bonsai too has gone the way of the trades. In Japan someone will specialize in the cuttings and seeds. A new trade will take year old stock to 5 gallon size in the ground performing needed tasks to keep it on a bonsai path. The next trade may perform first styling tasks while wiring where necessary again keeping shape for bonsai. At this point they may be ready for export or export to a master's garden where they will begin refinement and further artistic touches. Not many masters have the time to do all this. I'm sure they could...but why?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

In America we call them Journeyman Carpenters.

In Germany a journeyman carpenter is someone who has graduated from apprenticeship, but who is not a master. Most working carpenters in Germany are journeymen. The term used to mean that you would journey around learning your trade. It is still practiced in many parts of Europe.

 

[Hans van Meer]

Hot Action said "Master Baiter" hehehehe

LLL...LLLLLE....LLIKKKK...LLLLL...THATS FUNNY!
Hans.

 

[irene_b]

OK Kong,

since nobody else does I declare you the winner. You did it, your honor is reestablished. I will lick my wounds now and soon we will drink a beer together as soon as I am recovered.

I do not see either as a winner or loser. What I do see is that the Bnut community is richer for the showing of these 2 trees..
Irene

 

[king kong]

A duel is not an official procedure for establishing a 'winner' as it turns out. The goal is or was to gain satisfaction to restore one's honor by a willingness to risk one's life or reputation. A concession statement by Walter was not necessary but I thought pretty classy. We will do it again sometime on your terms but not in the near future.
If I learned one thing it was how difficult the photo sessions are. Everything has to be perfect. I will start another thread on this subject and if Walter would chime in on his photo 'secrets', it would be much appreciated.

 

[johng]

A duel is not an official procedure for establishing a 'winner' as it turns out. The goal is or was to gain satisfaction to restore one's honor by a willingness to risk one's life or reputation. A concession statement by Walter was not necessary but I thought pretty classy. We will do it again sometime on your terms but not in the near future.
If I learned one thing it was how difficult the photo sessions are. Everything has to be perfect. I will start another thread on this subject and if Walter would chime in on his photo 'secrets', it would be much appreciated.

That in itself is a pretty classy reply Kong...it earns you some more personal respect in my book. Of course, I also agree with you about Walter's participation.

Thanks,
John

 

[Attila Soos]

Well, sorry to cause such a controversy with my statement.

I understand the arguments against mine, and I emphathize (??) with them. I understand your concerns and complaints. Heck, I could even argue against what I said, myself. It is very easy. All the counter-arguments from Jason, Al, and others are true, and I whole-heartedly agree with them. And yet, they don't change anything, life remains the same with or without them.

Remember, this is just my personal opinion, and I am a little old-fashioned in my definition of "master", my standards are rather high. By the way, graduating from a 5 year school does not a master make. Not even the Nippon School of Bonsai Swordsman, Harward School of Business, or Saint Peter's Crash Course In Heaven Towards Angelhood. The school is just the beginning. The next, and most important part is to go through life and use what you've learned in school. That's what makes the master: Life. And no, Marco is not a Master in my book - he is a very gifted and knowledgeable bonsai professional. But nothing remotely close to a master.

These are my standards, an I stick to it. I don't need to defend them. I don't think mine is better than yours, it is just different.

You guys don't have to hold the same standard. In fact, I recommend that you should have your own personal standards. There is no such thing as one standard for everyone. There is no such thing as one master for everyone. A master is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[king kong]

This is my spin on this one. Of all the trees I work on from collected material (yamadori) to scratch grown material, for me personaly, I find a bonsai that was grown from scratch is more rewarding as a grower or a nurseryman. All the titles I here mentioned you can have. Means absolutely nothing to me. The best part of this hobby is having a collection yes but the most rewarding thing now I find is visiting and seeing other material (bonsai). If you have attempted all the methods and techniques you have that experience to draw from. No matter what gets put in front of you, your past experiences with bonsai can and will raise your appreciation levels much higher. When I have visitors look at a bonsai and ask "where did that come from" and I show them a seed or cutting, the look in there eyes is priceless. And there is some that could care less too.

 

[Attila Soos]

If you have attempted all the methods and techniques you have that experience to draw from. No matter what gets put in front of you, your past experiences with bonsai can and will raise your appreciation levels much higher.

That's exactly my point. If you've never attempted something (and succeeded in it - many try, but never succeed), you cannot fully comprehend the skill end effort that goes into it.
My first choice is still yamadori, but the biggest challenge is to create something from nothing. There is nothing harder than that.

 

[BUBBAFRGA]

Growing a bonsai from seed or a little cutting is ridiculous unless you want to spend some decades on it. Don't overestimate your patience.
What counts is the result.

I have several bonsai...well i cannot call them bonsai because they are not... that are from seedlings. There is one red maple, I've had for almost 14 years, and it will take another 20 years to become something but it is one of my first trees that is still alive and I will never get rid of it. But it is not only the tree I have....only one of 75 potsai, and 10-15 Bonsai / Micasai.

Bubbafrga

 

[king kong]

I am reading you loud and clear Atilla and we are a bit old fashioned which is a good thing. Lets break it down in periods. There is BK (before Kamura) and AK (after Kamura). BK people made bonsai any way they were told or saw in a book. AK people ran for the mountains and collected trees until they dropped. I can tell from reading peoples comments instantly whether they are BKs or AKs. I even remember my mentor, who was a huge BK "you got to see what this guy is doing with trees". That was it and K's signature insignia the tree turned up-side down turned the bonsai World up-side down and it has never been the same since. More on yamadori later.

 

[ghues]

Bk ak,

"AK people ran for the mountains and collected trees until they dropped. I can tell from reading peoples comments instantly whether they are BKs or AKs"
So KK.... am I AK or BK?
Also don't the very roots of Bonsai go back to people venturing into the mountians to collect trees, potting them up along with other resource trees (fruits, nuts etc)?
I'm old enough to be AK and have habits of both.
Gman

 

[Attila Soos]

Hey Kong, here is a question for you. Your Ficus has some great root arrangement, but the roots are still too thin. This is, of course, due to the fact that the tree was grown in container, where the roots never had a chance to grow long enough to gain a lot of volume.

If you could make those roots double in volume, the tree would instantly gain the appearance of serious aging. This is the only problem I have with the tree.

If you keep it in this small pot, this will not happen in your lifetime. If, however, plant it in a larger nursery pot for a couple of years, letting the roots grow freely, it could happen sooner than you think. You could also do what some people in Taiwan do with their Ficus - let the roots grow in some kind of long tubes, all the way to the ground. But to me that is too much hassle, so I would just stick with a larger pot, and then one even larger, as the roots lengthen. You would lose 3 or 4 years of showing the tree as a bonsai, but the improvement would be worth it.

What's your take on this?

 

[king kong]

I am grinning as I read that Atilla. Actually, then I will get back to the ficus in pic, the or one of the problems with ficus I have seen is they get too root strong getting a bit to allot out of scale. Once that happens you are in bad trouble. Very hard to go backwards. Now the ficus in the pic has 75% of its root girth on the sides of the rock and in the back. What I have found is if the root development in the front is allowed to get too big in girth, the tree will suffer scale wise. Too much in your face and it's a constant struggle to keep it in line. The picture might not tell the complete story on this tree.

 

[JasonG]

Hey Kong, here is a question for you. Your Ficus has some great root arrangement, but the roots are still too thin. This is, of course, due to the fact that the tree was grown in container, where the roots never had a chance to grow long enough to gain a lot of volume.

If you could make those roots double in volume, the tree would instantly gain the appearance of serious aging. This is the only problem I have with the tree.

If you keep it in this small pot, this will not happen in your lifetime. If, however, plant it in a larger nursery pot for a couple of years, letting the roots grow freely, it could happen sooner than you think. You could also do what some people in Taiwan do with their Ficus - let the roots grow in some kind of long tubes, all the way to the ground. But to me that is too much hassle, so I would just stick with a larger pot, and then one even larger, as the roots lengthen. You would lose 3 or 4 years of showing the tree as a bonsai, but the improvement would be worth it.

What's your take on this?

I agree 100% withyou Atilla. When I saw KK's tree I thought it was beautiful but the roots just didn't fit the rest of the tree. They are to thin and young looking like you mention. I agree, pot it up and let the roots thicken.

Jason

 

[Attila Soos]

Jason,
Yes, that is what I thought as well. I am used to those Taiwanese bonsai with huge and powerful root base - most of them are also cutting-grown, by the way, but for a long time. I don't see them out of scale at all.


Kong,
I just had a second look at the picture, and I see on the right side of the nebari a root(it is not in plain view, so it's not so obvious) that is much more powerful than those in front. So, I get a sense of what you are saying that most of the thick roots are on the sides, and on the back.

You seem to be saying that you prefer the "lacy look" in front, so that we can see more of the rock...and if the front roots thicken, you lose that look. If that's the case, and if you have thick roots in the other parts of the tree, then I can understand your rationale.

However, you should also know that you see this tree so often that you cannot see what we see - with a fresh eye. This happens to all of us when we look at our trees - too much familiarity is like a veil in front of our eyes.

 

[JasonG]

Jason,

Kong,
I just had a second look at the picture, and I see on the right side of the nebari a root(it is not in plain view, so it's not so obvious) that is much more powerful than those in front. So, I get a sense of what you are saying that most of the thick roots are on the sides, and on the back.

You seem to be saying that you prefer the "lacy look" in front, so that we can see more of the rock...and if the front roots thicken, you lose that look. If that's the case, and if you have thick roots in the other parts of the tree, then I can understand your rationale.

So, here is where growing the roots in tubes comes into play...you just grow the ones that need to be grown out while the others reamain contained. Kinda clever really.

Nice tree Kong.

Jason