tombeur
Yamadori
KK that is one nice tree!
Cheers,
Steve
Cheers,
Steve
Kong vs. Pall bonsai-duel
- Thread starter king kong
- Start date
FourMileMarc
Mame
Yes, the next duel should be these two with the only rule being collected material.
Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
No offense...
But I hope this comment isn't a question of integrity. The Caveman is many things... liar is not one.
If I mistook your intention... then I withdraw my comment. There's just something suggestive about the way you worded your sentance, so it required comment.
Or anything that isn't so restictive as to "started from seed or cutting". How many people start trees from seeds or cuttings? Ok, let me re-phrase that, How many people actually have seeds or cuttings that live to be old enough to turn into descent bonsai? Not many. Frankly not many have the time to deal wit them and that isn't the best way to get the best material.
Miss Vic, I think his quuestion is valid. I don't think he is calling the Kong a liar, but rather curious to see some history. Nothing wrong with that. We have all visited Walters site and already know the history of his entry long before he ever posted it here.
I don't think anyone is calling him a liar at all.
Jason
Attila Soos
Omono
Well, my comment on that is that every bonsaist should have a few projects started from seed or cutting. To me, it is compulsory, just like for a history major is compulsory to study ancient Greece and Rome, regardless of what area of history is he interested in.
I personally would NOT call anyone a bonsai master unless the person has sucessfully passed the trials and errors of raising and creating bonsai from seed (or young cutting) - but that is just my personal view. And the reason is that creating quality bonsai from seed is very hard and time consuming, and everybody who claims to be a master should know very well how to do it. Working with yamadori that is hundreds of years old is very "glamorous" and "sexy" (if you know what I mean). Working with a seed is not. That's why I see it as the ultimate test of patience and commitment. It is a great leap of faith to be involved in a project that may not amount to anything spectacular in one's lifetime.
Last edited:
Marc S
Yamadori
I still think this kind of duel or competition is insane.
KK's tree IS beautiful. It's almost perfect. It breathes balance, harmony and peace. The roots and the rock are in balance too. It works almost as a tranquilizer.
I want to enjoy a tree like this, I don't want to see it as part of a competition.
KK's tree IS beautiful. It's almost perfect. It breathes balance, harmony and peace. The roots and the rock are in balance too. It works almost as a tranquilizer.
I want to enjoy a tree like this, I don't want to see it as part of a competition.
FourMileMarc
Mame
I am just asking for some proof that it is his. What is wrong with that. I am also wondering how he did it without cutting the leader repetitively. Trunk or stem chop or cut (whatever terminology you want to use) is violating his own rule. I am no expert, Maybe there is a technique he used I am not aware of.
Seriously
Seriously
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
OK Kong,
since nobody else does I declare you the winner. You did it, your honor is reestablished. I will lick my wounds now and soon we will drink a beer together as soon as I am recovered.
since nobody else does I declare you the winner. You did it, your honor is reestablished. I will lick my wounds now and soon we will drink a beer together as soon as I am recovered.
pjkatich
Chumono
Attila,
Very well stated, and on the mark. I share your sentiments as stated 100 percent. It seems that patience and commitment are two traits that seem to have slipped a little further down the priority list in these troubled times we live in.
Walter and Kong,
My compliments to the both of you.
Both trees are good examples of what can be done with patience and commitment.
As I see it, there are no losers in this friendly challenge, only winners.
Thanks to you both for taking the time to share with us.
Regards,
Paul
Marc S
Yamadori
Growing a bonsai from seed or a little cutting is ridiculous unless you want to spend some decades on it. Don't overestimate your patience.
What counts is the result.
I personally would NOT call anyone a bonsai master unless the person has sucessfully passed the trials and errors of raising and creating bonsai from seed (or young cutting) - but that is just my personal view. And the reason is that creating quality bonsai from seed is very hard and time consuming, and everybody who claims to be a master should know very well how to do it. "Quote"
Next time I see Kimura I will tell him he's a hack, since all he can work on is Yamadori. Maybe he will start a seed bed to reclaim his honor. Poor, poor man, and all this time he could have been growing his own trees. Thanks for posting Attila, I haven't had this good a laugh in a long time.
Harry
Next time I see Kimura I will tell him he's a hack, since all he can work on is Yamadori. Maybe he will start a seed bed to reclaim his honor. Poor, poor man, and all this time he could have been growing his own trees. Thanks for posting Attila, I haven't had this good a laugh in a long time.
Harry
Last edited:
PeterW
Sapling
tombeur
Yamadori
I am just asking for some proof that it is his. What is wrong with that.
Seriously
Ummmmm... if you want proof of something please do not use the internet ... it is unsafe for you. Besides, why would someone lie about this?
Cheers,
Steve
Attila Soos
Omono
Harry, I am glad that you are laughing, it is very good for your health.
By the way, I would bet my house on it, that Kimura did start bonsai form seed or cutting. I have no proof of this, but I would be very surprised if he didn't (If you are indeed right, and he never did try, I will have to demote him in my book and call him an Almost-Master). Sorry to disagree with you on "all he can work on is yamadori": he can work on ANYTHING, not just yamadori. But yamadori is what pays the big bucks, you know.
To those who believe that growing bonsai from seed or cutting is ridiculous, I disagree: It is more than ridiculous, it is Insane - almost impossible.
And this is why I expect a master to do it: if he can do the nearly impossible, than he is worthy of the name. Otherwise, I would rather call him a yamadori specialist. Nothing wrong in specializing in one area, such as yamadori.
Just to avoid misunderstanding, I do not believe that one needs to have many of these lifelong projects. But a master should master all aspects of bonsai, including growing it from very young material. How can call yourself a bonsai master if you have no idea how to do it? Call yourself an artist, a specialist, anything you want, but not a bonsai master - this title should be reserved to those few who have done it all.
Of course, these days anybody can call himself a bonsai master - there is no law against it.
Last edited:
Harry, I am glad that you are laughing, it is very good for your health.
By the way, I would bet my house on it, that Kimura did start bonsai form seed or cutting. I have no proof of this, but I would be very surprised if he didn't (If you are indeed right, and he never did try, I will have to demote him in my book and call him an Almost-Master).
To those who believe that growing bonsai from seed or cutting is ridiculous, I disagree: It is more than ridiculous, it is Insane - almost impossible.
And this is why I expect a master to do it: if he can do the nearly impossible, than he is worthy of the name. Otherwise, I would rather call him a yamadori specialist. Nothing wrong in specializing in one area, such as yamadori.
Just to avoid misunderstanding, I do not believe that one needs to have many of these lifelong projects. But a master should master all aspects of bonsai, including growing it from very young material. How can call yourself a bonsai master if you have no idea how to do it? Call yourself an artist, a specialist, anything you want, but not a bonsai master - this title should be reserved to those few who have done it all.
Of course, these days anybody can call himself a bonsai artist - there is no law against it.
Hi Attila,
With all due respect I find your statement a bit strict.
Tiger Woods is the best golfer in the world, a professional and some would say since he is the best he would be a master. Tiger hasn't mastered golf, no one can it is impossible. Same with bonsai, there is not one person who has mastered at all aspects of bonsai. This too is impossible.
I am sure most people have grown seedlings or rooted cuttings, heck I have. But most seedlings die no matter the support given and as we grow in bonsai we learn that what we have grown from a cutting or seed just isn't going to be a good bonsai so we throw it away or give to to the neighbor to plan in his/her yard.
In my case, I have given them all away, it isn't worth the time. There are plenty of killer yamadori or field grown material to work with. My resources are best spent focusing on other things rather than seedling that will take 20 years to be anything, and another 200 to be great.
To say someone isn't a master because they havent' grown a seed into a bonsai is crazy. Marco is too young to have done that yet he is one of the most indemand popular bonsai Masters in the world. Is he not a master?
Just some thoughts.
Regards, Jason
Last edited:
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Atilla, I suspect you have decided to mount an essay on what constitutes being a master from the Atilla school of learning. While I suspect you may defend your ideas to the death there is plenty of substance to the contrary of what you are saying.
Kathy Shaner "is" a certified bonsai master. This was bestowed upon her by the Nippon Bonsai Asscociation. She is the "only" certified bonsai master in America. Kenji is not, Boon is not, Colin is not, and Nick is not. I could go on but you get the idea. Growing bonsai from seed and cutting was not part of her apprenticeship. She apprenticed for 6 years from Yaseo Mitsuya. Trying to tie up an apprenticeship with something as trivial as growing masterpiece bonsai from seed or cutting in six years is not making very good use of ones time.
I am sure that Kathy could grow bonsai from seed or cutting....but one would have to ask why? There is so much material with masterpiece potential why not allow that other material for someone to work on in 2030.
Cheers, Al
Kathy Shaner "is" a certified bonsai master. This was bestowed upon her by the Nippon Bonsai Asscociation. She is the "only" certified bonsai master in America. Kenji is not, Boon is not, Colin is not, and Nick is not. I could go on but you get the idea. Growing bonsai from seed and cutting was not part of her apprenticeship. She apprenticed for 6 years from Yaseo Mitsuya. Trying to tie up an apprenticeship with something as trivial as growing masterpiece bonsai from seed or cutting in six years is not making very good use of ones time.
I am sure that Kathy could grow bonsai from seed or cutting....but one would have to ask why? There is so much material with masterpiece potential why not allow that other material for someone to work on in 2030.
Cheers, Al
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Edit;
I do have the Kathy Shaner transcripts of her diary in Japan. Seeds and cuttings was not on the program.
I have added this for those that feel proof is needed.
I do have the Kathy Shaner transcripts of her diary in Japan. Seeds and cuttings was not on the program.
I have added this for those that feel proof is needed.
Well Jason and big Al 1, you're big old teddy bears tonight, you must be in the Christmas spirit already. I'm getting the warm fuzzies just reading your Hallmark posts. If I said something like that you would have my Hanes in flames by now. I admire the gentle nature of your respectful answers.
Harry
The only smartass posting tonight
Harry
The only smartass posting tonight
FourMileMarc
Mame
I am voting for Walter cuz I saw it next to his wife. Now all we need is proof that it is really his wife.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
In retrospect....building a fire for my wife in the fireplace before she gets home from work I began running all sorts of analogies thru my head.
In Atilla terms, no one could be a master carpenter unless you were fully trained in how to fall a tree in the forest. A master painter could not be called so unless he knew how to grind paints from the metals and oxides from which they come. A master machinist is a hack unless he can turn pig iron into fine steel in the blast furnace with the careful addition of coke and chromium.
I could go on and on but a master of X does not necessarily mean that he has to be a master of A to Z. I think all of us at this forum understand what constitutes a bonsai master and is not based on whether that person can make a tree out of any species from seed or cutting. If that is your parameter Atilla, you are surly entitled to it, but you leave behind some of the best creative bonsai minds of our last century as being a master based on your beliefs.
Last time I heard "bonsai" was a "tree in a tray" not a seed or cutting in a tray. Lets hope it doesn't get to that.
Cheers, Al
In Atilla terms, no one could be a master carpenter unless you were fully trained in how to fall a tree in the forest. A master painter could not be called so unless he knew how to grind paints from the metals and oxides from which they come. A master machinist is a hack unless he can turn pig iron into fine steel in the blast furnace with the careful addition of coke and chromium.
I could go on and on but a master of X does not necessarily mean that he has to be a master of A to Z. I think all of us at this forum understand what constitutes a bonsai master and is not based on whether that person can make a tree out of any species from seed or cutting. If that is your parameter Atilla, you are surly entitled to it, but you leave behind some of the best creative bonsai minds of our last century as being a master based on your beliefs.
Last time I heard "bonsai" was a "tree in a tray" not a seed or cutting in a tray. Lets hope it doesn't get to that.
Cheers, Al
Similar threads
