Itioigawa Shimpaku

[Beng]

When pruning Itoigawa I've often wondered is one time of year better then another to stop it from reverting? In the past I've done my pruning at repot, I hear these days many are suggesting to not prune juniper foliage at repot. In the past anytime I've hard pruned kishu or itoigawa during the spring they've reverted to juvenile foliage for about a year. I haven't ever tried hard pruning branches in the fall though... So i was thinking that perhaps it may be less of an insult and the chance of them reverting to juvenile foliage may be decreased due to sap flow, has anyone tried this? By hard pruning I mean removing about 40-60% of the foliage.

Ben

 

[ChrisV]

Nice tree! Growing of juvinile foliage occurs when The tree is in stress or inbalanced. Most of The time it's rootball isn't balanced with The amount of foliage. It's nothing more than a survival mechanism for The tree.
There is one important thing to know that you never should prune or take away more than 30% of The juvinile foliage. As this will result in more juvinile growt.
Before you know it the whole tree is full of it.
The only way to get rid of it is to let it grow out.
It can take up to years but eventually The mature foliage will take over if the tree is balanced and healthy.

My sarengetii/shimpaku still has some of it. It grew when it got dug out.
It took the guy who imported The tree 15y ago 8years to get more than 80% of mature foliage back.
Patience is the key.

 

[Vance Wood]

Nice tree! Growing of juvinile foliage occurs when The tree is in stress or inbalanced. Most of The time it's rootball isn't balanced with The amount of foliage. It's nothing more than a survival mechanism for The tree.
There is one important thing to know that you never should prune or take away more than 30% of The juvinile foliage. As this will result in more juvinile growt.
Before you know it the whole tree is full of it.
The only way to get rid of it is to let it grow out.
It can take up to years but eventually The mature foliage will take over if the tree is balanced and healthy.

My sarengetii/shimpaku still has some of it. It grew when it got dug out.
It took the guy who imported The tree 15y ago 8years to get more than 80% of mature foliage back.
Patience is the key.

I have never had this problem with a Shimpaku. I have totally butchered Shimpakus for years and have never had the reversion to juvenile growth become a problem and I have removed a great deal more than 30%, I have removed more than 50% and had no reversion. What I think may be happening is one, or both of two things. The tree may not be anchored well enough in the pot causing the tree and its roots to move back and forth in the wind.

I have had this happen more than once and I finally repotted the one tree where I had this issue making sure the roots were unable to move and consequently have the little growing ends broken off. Once the tree was stabilized the juvenile growth reverted to adult foliage.

The other problem is that maybe the tree is a straight Sargents Juniper and not a Shimpaku at all. A Sargents Juniper is a terrible bonsai subject. The will revert to Juvenile foliage if you look at them side-ways, and abandon foliage with the same glee.

 

[ChrisV]

I'm pretty sure mine is a shimpaku. Masashi Hirao was the Head keeper of the Mansei- en collection and apprentice of the late Subaro Kato.
He was here and helped me out with the tree. also told me about juvinile growth on junipers also on shimpakus and that mine was a Shimpaku. But it can be a lot of factors that cause it, but it always comes back to unbalance between the roots and foliage mass.

 

[Vance Wood]

I'm pretty sure mine is a shimpaku. Masashi Hirao was the Head keeper of the Mansei- en collection and apprentice of the late Subaro Kato.
He was here and helped me out with the tree. also told me about juvinile growth on junipers also on shimpakus and that mine was a Shimpaku. But it can be a lot of factors that cause it, but it always comes back to unbalance between the roots and foliage mass.

I am certainly in no position to argue with you or the claim of your provenience. However; my Shimpakus, and I have many of them, do not behave the same way yours do no matter how badly I abuse them other than in the way I previously illustrated.

 

[ChrisV]

Well maybe it has to do with the age or what happened after they dug it out. I also have more shimpakus and some like yours can handle about anything.

 

[Lazylightningny]

The other problem is that maybe the tree is a straight Sargents Juniper and not a Shimpaku at all. A Sargents Juniper is a terrible bonsai subject. The will revert to Juvenile foliage if you look at them side-ways, and abandon foliage with the same glee.

Is there a way to tell them apart without a microscope and a doctorate?

 

[Vance Wood]

Is there a way to tell them apart without a microscope and a doctorate?

I'm not sure I can tell a Kishu from an Itoigawa. I know that the Sargents has finer foliage is about all. Someone may be able to tell you; I await with as much anticipation as you do.

 

[John Romano]

If you saw them side by side, it is not that hard to tell the difference. Here is a very good photo blog of the differences (though still easier to tell if shown in person):

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2...s-among-itoigawa-kishu-and-shimpaku-junipers/

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/much-ado-about-shimpakuand-itoigawa-and-kishu/

john

 

[Vance Wood]

If you saw them side by side, it is not that hard to tell the difference. Here is a very good photo blog of the differences (though still easier to tell if shown in person):

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2...s-among-itoigawa-kishu-and-shimpaku-junipers/

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/much-ado-about-shimpakuand-itoigawa-and-kishu/

john

Well I still don't know dog poop from shoe polish. My Shimpakus look like Itoigawas and act like Kishus. I can make my Kishus take on a wonderful blue color by growing them in the shade for a week or two and foliage becomes more fine. So maybes they are were-wolf Junipers; they change in the dark by the light of the full moon. I don't mean to be flippant but I cannot tell the difference.

 

[Beng]

Believe it or not kishu and itoigawa have a few named variations.

Gary of Chikugo-en cultivates several different kinds of itoigawa. One of the types is a strain of itoigawa called Kiyozuru. Although its color is the same as regular itoigawa, it differs from it in 2 ways. Its scales size wise are the same thickness but slightly tighter then that of a standard itoigawa and because of that it forms a denser nicer pad like a kishu. Side by side with a kishu any strain of itoigawa is instantly identifiable. Kishu is a duller green color with less of a yellowish vibrant tint. You could say kishu is closer to what we think of when we hear of shimpaku as bonsai. Kishus color is more vibrant then standard shimpaku and its scales are a bit finer then standard shimpaku. Standard Itoigawa forms looser fans and thinner longer runners, its needles are finer then kishus and less round. A kishu left for years will form some runners but mostly the pads will just form larger longer masses. You could describe a mature itoigawas foliage as having a feathery appearance when seen in person. Kishu tends to produce less pointy tips with rounder slightly swollen ends of each tip.

Like Vance said kishu grown in slight shade will take on a more bluish gray appearance. Immature kishu foliage is also bluer. Grown in full sun its mature foliage will be a nice rich green. Itoigawa in shade will loose much of its florescent green appeal but it won't look blue. Side by side a mature kishu needle has about 1/2 the ramification per inch of a mature itiogawa needle. But it makes up for it with the nice ball like pads it forms. Itoigawa foliage is looser when it's young and more open although with age itoigawa will begin to tighten up..

Gary also has many kishu, you can put 2 side by side and they can be different colors depending on the sun they were grown in. Needle length can be longer on one and more dense on another. Just like with deciduous trees there will rarely but sometimes be random strains that will display denser more compact scales.

Although itoigawa is more sought after these days, I heard that about 10 years ago no in this country cared for it. It was mostly overlooked at many shows and Kishu was the star. In my opinion both are superb, have their plus's and minuses. As you know In the right hands any juniper can be amazing.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Well I still don't know dog poop from shoe polish. My Shimpakus look like Itoigawas and act like Kishus. I can make my Kishus take on a wonderful blue color by growing them in the shade for a week or two and foliage becomes more fine. So maybes they are were-wolf Junipers; they change in the dark by the light of the full moon. I don't mean to be flippant but I cannot tell the difference.

As you know, junipers are exceptionally variant. A walk among a group of RMJ in nature will demonstrate that almost immediately.

However, if you cannot tell there is a difference between the top 2 (kishu) and the bottom 3 (Itoigawa), I suspect you aren't interested in telling the difference. That's fine too, just seems like the same amount of effort expended to profess ignorance could result in learning.

 

[Vance Wood]

As you know, junipers are exceptionally variant. A walk among a group of RMJ in nature will demonstrate that almost immediately.

However, if you cannot tell there is a difference between the top 2 (kishu) and the bottom 3 (Itoigawa), I suspect you aren't interested in telling the difference. That's fine too, just seems like the same amount of effort expended to profess ignorance could result in learning.

Wow Brian, did I urinate in the punch? At what point did I incur your wrath or where did I call you ignorant? I asked because I really don't know, see honesty is better than hubris.

With the image you posted the differences are clearly visible. However; maybe I'm just ignorant but I can take one of my Shimpakus and get both kinds of growth out of the same tree depending on how I care for it. How does that happen? And as long as we are asking questions: In your comparison photo why do people desire the Itoigawa cultiavar ( the scraggly one on the bottom) over the Kishu ( the compact well colored one on the top) ? It seems to me that the Kishu is a superior tree, but of course I'm just an ignorant slob that knows nothing about trees.




Can you in all honesty tell me whether these trees are Kishu or Itoigawa?

 

[tmmason10]

It's funny, looking at pictures like what Brian posted, you would think kishu would be more popular. Why is itoigawa best? I assume it is because of the fan shape of growth vs ball shape of kishu? Easier to make pads?

 

[Vance Wood]

It's funny, looking at pictures like what Brian posted, you would think kishu would be more popular. Why is itoigawa best? I assume it is because of the fan shape of growth vs ball shape of kishu? Easier to make pads?

I suppose that most people following this thread think I am yanking someone's chain and trying to create a disturbance but I really don't know the difference. Sure; I can look at Brian's photo and the difference is clearly there, but as I said I can get the same and or both kinds of growth out of one of my Shimpakus (what ever variety they are) depending on how I care for them.

Tmmason wrote in my query about choice between Kishu and ItowigawaI assume it is because of the fan shape of growth vs ball shape of kishu? Easier to make pads? The question mark says it all easier to make pads? I would have to say that a tree that grows the way mine do (assuming they are Kishu) make pads easily. The big problem with them is keeping them thined enough so the interior growth does not die due to lack of light.

Most people I am aware of complain about having to constantly pinch, clip, prune, or chew off the ends, what ever they are calling it today, in order to get ramification etc. With my Shimpakus most of my issues are in eliminating growth to keep the pads from becoming too compact.

By the way thank you for your non-condecensending response. All things being said I still don't know for sure what variety my Shimps are or can I understand why another variety of Shimp is considered the better tree? WHAT MAKES IT BETTER????

 

[tmmason10]

I should also say, irregardless of what variety you have Vance your shimps are very nice, much better than any of my trees currently. I really was just curious for the itoigawa>kishu reasoning.

 

[Beng]

Wow Brian, did I urinate in the punch? At what point did I incur your wrath or where did I call you ignorant? I asked because I really don't know, see honesty is better than hubris.

With the image you posted the differences are clearly visible. However; maybe I'm just ignorant but I can take one of my Shimpakus and get both kinds of growth out of the same tree depending on how I care for it. How does that happen? And as long as we are asking questions: In your comparison photo why do people desire the Itoigawa cultiavar ( the scraggly one on the bottom) over the Kishu ( the compact well colored one on the top) ? It seems to me that the Kishu is a superior tree, but of course I'm just an ignorant slob that knows nothing about trees.


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Can you in all honesty tell me whether these trees are Kishu or Itoigawa?

Those all look like they may be kishu and standard shimpaku to me. Although the third one from the left seems to have some of the finer foliage qualities of itoigawa, and the one on the far right has a really vibrant green like itoigawa. Great looking trees.

Itoigawas just in fashion right now I bet in another 5 years people will prefer kishu again. I'm told people in Japan prefer it as its easier to wire, and has finer scales.

 

[Vance Wood]

I should also say, irregardless of what variety you have Vance your shimps are very nice, much better than any of my trees currently. I really was just curious for the itoigawa>kishu reasoning.

I agree I too am curious about the schism between the two cultivars, and why someone would consider one over the other? Is it because the Itowigawa is more difficult to obtain therefore it is a superior tree concept, or can someone tell me why it is the superior tree from experience preferably? I am still waiting for someone to tell me what cultivar my Shimps are?

 

[Beng]

The more I look at the one in the middle the more it looks like pruned itoigawa foliage to me... But it doesn't have the color that could just be the picture and the sun it's in though?

Here's my updated guess

#1 Shimpaku #2 Kishu #3 Itoigawa or a nice thin scaled Kishu variant #4 Kishu in shade #5 Kishu... is this the same as tree #3 if so i think tree #3 is probably kishu.

 

[Vance Wood]

The more I look at the one in the middle the more it looks like pruned itoigawa foliage to me... But it doesn't have the color that could just be the picture and the sun it's in though?

Here's my updated guess

#1 Shimpaku #2 Kishu #3 Itoigawa or a nice thin scaled Kishu variant #4 Kishu grown in shade #5 Kishu... is this the same as tree #3 if so i think tree #3 is probably kishu.

I thank you for making the attempt, I which leave me more uncertain as to what they are for a different reason than you might think.