Is bonsai getting harder?

a natural extension of the thought associated to Rousseau and espoused by the heirs to the Whigs

I don’t mean to suggest John Money had a new idea. Just that he claimed to have proven an old idea.

And of course, average sex differences in humans are very minor, but those minor differences skew the averages enough to see a general trend. I would argue nurture plays a stronger role than nature, but nature still plays enough of a role that we shouldn’t dismiss it altogether.

I think we’re in agreement.
 
It might indeed be here. Over my time as a mod I've come to accept that subreddits are actually much closer to hashtags (or even algorithmically-derived suggestions) than the "subforum" thing you see in a PHP or Python powered forum like this one. The folks who have a thought model of "subreddit = subforum" tend to be disappointed again and again as their subreddit begins to grow in popularity, because as it grows in popularity, its behavior begins to resemble that of a hashtag, with the vast majority of the "subreddit upvote ouija board" being ultimately decided by drive-by scrollers, who just upvote whatever. So ultimately, reddit becomes another unhelpful place since it's dominated by non-practitioners and becomes a non-practitioner echo chamber.
This is a super interesting dynamic that I haven't considered.

literally just tell me how many dollars into which account I need to pay to never see a stupid ad for scammy shit on this forum ever again, please, this is embarrassing OMFG already
Also yes, would pay for membership at a premium to support this site and kill ads. It will be the least of my bonsai expenses.
 
This thread reminded me of this video of David Easterbrook and Dave DeGroot visiting Ryan Neil at Mirai… There are points in the video when Ryan is speaking to them and you can really sense the generation-to-generation evolution of bonsai in North America… a couple of the grand old pioneers of American bonsai hearing the new and improved ideas of the next generation.

I’ve only been practicing bonsai for about four years so I suppose I don’t have much of an opinion on the topic. I’ve found learning to be very fun and accessible. YouTube has an abundance of info— and my BS detector is getting better. This forum is fantastic. I tried Bjorn’s Bonsai-U. I recently joined my local club, Greater Hartford Bonsai Society, and I can already tell that it’s gonna level me up. The first meeting was great, and next month I’m attending the club’s workshop with Young Choe. Exciting stuff!

If bonsai is getting harder, I’m here for it!
 
Harder - maybe. Has it advanced? Yes. Harder would suggest doing the same thing today that was done in 1960 was more difficult. Outside of perhaps having access to collected material, I’d say most things are more accessible now and therefore likely easier.

But do people today have the same expectations for progress today that they might have in 1960? I’d guess not. We probably have higher expectations and overall more advanced knowledge earlier due to ease of access and proliferation of groups for bonsai (at least here in the US). I started learning last fall and immediately had many years of forum discussion to access, joined a bonsai study group with certified professionals, and hundreds if not thousands of hours of visual information on the practice or bonsai through YouTube.

I’d think it’s probably easier now to progress but the whole study has advanced such that expectations are higher.
 
Wow great thread! I am usually a lurker, bnutter of past, but a lot of well thought out intellectual comments. I think about this topic, as well as the future of bonsai in the US often because I am "newer generation" bonsai professional. I started in 2014, and joined this forum in 2015. When I got into bonsai it was pure obsession. I don't know how many thousands of hours I spent reading, asking, and researching all available information on the internet and in person. In 2018 I went to Japan to do an apprenticeship at Fujikawa Kouka-en, and returned at the start of covid, 2020. At that point I was doing bonsai semi-professionally, but also informally studying with Peter Tea and John Wang. In July of 2022, after significant deliberation, I decided to quit my full time job and pursue bonsai full time. Short of disclosing my personal finances, I have been able to sustain myself independently and financially and feel that I have slowly been growing my standing as a professional. It is comforting to know that I can at least clear the first step of survival, but of course I worry about the future as well as my growth as a professional.

Looking back I have only been doing bonsai for 9 years, approaching on 10 next year! Which in hindsight it has been a crazy journey from knowing nothing to where I feel confident in my skills and ability to teach. Of course I am still learning and improving my skill continuously, which is the best part of the journey!

There are some great points brought up in this thread. First I thought I would talk about accessibility and quality of information. Another point is the practice of bonsai within the hobbyist circles, in contrast to its broader recognition and practice within the general public. Lastly regarding bonsai as a practice, and how it meshes with our modern society.

On point 1, with the advent and progression of the internet there is a huge wealth of information available. Of course not all of it is quality information, and ability to discern relevant and good advice comes with experience. But even with some BS mixed in, compared to "old school" and pre-internet age hobbyists the relevant effort required to put in to learn techniques is much less. Additionally, since the Boon era, there has been a consistent influx and return of apprentices from Japan. If we consider the pursuit of an apprenticeship as the highest deliberate notion of aiming for bonsai professionally, it represents the growth of the domestic community and recognition of bonsai as a serious and high level "art." With skilled instruction and knowledge, not only the physical practice of bonsai elevates but the perceived celling is raised as well. I would say bonsai is actually becoming easier, but our trees in comparison have become worse. As we all know, bonsai is a long term endeavor and translating new knowledge and skills to practice is then carried out over years.

On point 2, I would argue that the majority of "serious" bonsai hobbyists live in a bubble. Engaged within their respective community but not the broader public. This may just be human nature, where more often than not, people seek out like minded individuals to engage and socialize with. A good example of this is the socal bonsai scene where I am currently based. I believe bonsai in the US actually first started out in Southern California with early generation Japanese immigrants. This pre-dates when I was alive, but from what I was told many of those original groups were very exclusive and Japanese only. Looking at old CBS (California Bonsai Society) magazines, there were actually some very good trees for that time era in existence. Unfortunately the majority of which died along with their owners since there was a disconnect from the outside bonsai scene and lack of family interest in bonsai which is often the case for most practitioners. It is important to engage outside of your community for the growth of the art, and the simple reality of the human condition--we all die!

Bonsai is time intensive, require careful attention to care and horticulture, and some semblance of stability (not a great hobby for frequent travelers, students, young working professionals, etc). From both life circumstance, finances, and local accessibility not everyone is able to pursue bonsai at a "serious" level and interest levels will vary. This is fine! Having an elitist approach to bonsai is a good way to alienate future would be serious practitioners. Unfortunately I see a lot of gatekeeping, and reverse gatekeeping lol where old school hobbyists/practitioners reject the new professionals who are frankly just more skilled. What we should do is engage with this latter group, and present bonsai to them not as some unattainable art but provide information and an approach of bonsai as a process so they enjoy growing and developing their trees! Not every tree is going to become a top level amazing masterpiece, but even mediocre material and accrue some quality of age and character in bonsai. Those who get the chance to experience and recognize this are very likely to shift into the first group.

I have had frequent discussions with Bob Hilvers, the curator for the Clark Collection at the Shinzen Gardens. I work there a few days a month teaching all the volunteers, working on trees, and raising the level of the collection. For those who are unaware, we have 3 public bonsai collections in California co-sponsored by the Golden State Bonsai Federation. The reality for most public collections, if they are not supported by their host garden/org, they must generate internal revenue or rely on donations. This is not so easy to do, and donations or support from a co-partnered or host garden/org will directly relate to the public perception and face value of bonsai. If there is more mainstream recognition and appreciation of bonsai as an art/practice, people are more inclined to invest money into it as it adds value to a public space and becomes somewhat of a cultural treasure.

On the last point, these are more of just my personal feelings (speaking for America, may or may not be true for other countries). Especially with the internet, we live in a instant gratification mass consumption society. It makes sense, because ease of accessibility to resources, knowledge, and the subsequent packaging of said commodity is great for generating money as well as general growth. For social media, content is no longer presented in a chronological fashion from the user perspective of their subscriptions but controlled by an algorithm discerning where to direct content to the audience most apt to receive it. Creators, companies, and artists are thus competing for the time of their customers/audience and as creature of convenience you can be damn sure we're gonna pick the easiest option. Again, this is not always a bad thing as competition equates to growth but from a consumer perspective I feel that people become complacent and lazy. It becomes easy to seek instant gratification and lose sight of things with real value.

I like the simple quote of, "there is no free lunch" and that everything of worth and value takes time to create. Bonsai to me is this illogical antithesis of modern society where we need to wait to get our serotonin boost like some loser doomer unlike the chad who like a reasonable human being just goes out and enjoys life in the present moment. But in seriousness bonsai forces us to contemplate time, experience time, and assign beauty to age. It teaches us patience and involves us with nature and the seasons. There is a key lesson again that good things take time to make. I believe these are good virtues for any society. We can evaluate the health of a society by quantifiable and physical attributes--economics, politics, population, maybe culture. I believe there is another attribute, and that is the spiritual health of our society. I am not not implying or equating that with religion, although it can mutually overlap. Spiritual health is caring about our family, friends, our respective communities, environment, and perhaps the life that continues after we all die. I believe bonsai holds a great philosophy and there is unrecognized potential in it on how we can present it to the general public and in how they adopt it. As I tell almost all my students, just enjoy the process (don't overly obsess with the end goal) and you can have a lifetime of fulfillment. Maybe even a legacy or something for the future as well.
 
In the meantime, I suggest you join me in my holy war to rehabilitate /r/bonsaiporn by submitting photos of well-developed trees and downvoting photos of sticks in pots.
I admit, I am getting old. I do not understand how reddit works. I have an account, but it seems impossibly hard to post images there.
Any tips on how to go about this?
 
I admit, I am getting old. I do not understand how reddit works. I have an account, but it seems impossibly hard to post images there.
Any tips on how to go about this?
It works like a forum with moderators; people that provide unpaid referee services to the platform. So first you need credibility: like and comment on a bunch of things over a timespan of a couple weeks, so they know you're not a robot. Then you're generally allowed to post things that the moderators deem worthy of posting, they act as a filter. Then you're free to do as you please as long as it doesn't upset the moderators (they've been known to lock entire forums from outsiders, just because they want to).
I found the best thing to do is to upload a made-up story on stuff like r/relationshipadvice ("My girlfriend (F36) has drowned our dog (F5) and now I'm (35?M) thinking of divorcing my wife because I hated the dog") or r/IATA ("I sent a student with no personal budget to do an internship abroad. But now he's being forced to work in the mines to pay for it, am I the asshole?") that hits the front page if it's emotionally rollercoastery enough. Then you're set for life.
Or you can just contact a moderator of a bonsai page through direct messages / PM's and they'll probably grant you some more rights. Just explain the situation, link some of your videos and it'll probably work out.
Do not post your videos directly to reddit though, because then you'll miss that youtube pocket change.
 
Looking back I have only been doing bonsai for 9 years, approaching on 10 next year!
This is part of why the idea of bonsai is "easier" comes from. (Not that the path you took was easy by any account!) But because there are many resources out there now to attain vast knowledge in a small amount of time if you put the effort into it. Not without cost as it can become obsessive and costly in both money and relationships if you really go after it. And it isn't a guaranteed success if you want to pin your livelihood on it even if you work really hard at it. Travel will always be required and not all people want that life.
 
Especially with the internet, we live in a instant gratification mass consumption society.
I could write a thesis regarding my thoughts on this concept and its place in modern social psychology, but I'll just point out it's relationship to some of the points I've made previously.

2020 saw an explosive increase in people all over the world engaging in new hobbies, or even practical pursuits at home that filled the same space for a given individual.
Neglecting collection based hobbies (baseball cards, stamps, movie memorabilia, etc) no hobby out there I can think of at the moment is one purely of instant gratification. They almost all involve some act of creation; planning, acquiring materials, step by step procedure, and finally a finished product. Even that finished product is very often one that could have been purchased of the same or even better quality, yet the individual delayed their gratification for the opportunity for the even greater gratification of having done it themselves.

Despite what the talking heads on TV - who are involved in some way in the instant gratification economy you described - might say, people ENJOY delaying their gratification.
Bonsai I think is just an extreme form of this. Work your whole life to achieve something you'll only get to enjoy for a little while in retirement, all the while think to yourself, "it's done. Well what now?!"

Again, I could go on and on, but 2020 and the succeeding 2 years revealed a great many things about the human condition, mainly that we are inherently an industrious species that enjoys getting our hands dirty.
 
I could write a thesis regarding my thoughts on this concept and its place in modern social psychology, but I'll just point out it's relationship to some of the points I've made previously.

2020 saw an explosive increase in people all over the world engaging in new hobbies, or even practical pursuits at home that filled the same space for a given individual.
Neglecting collection based hobbies (baseball cards, stamps, movie memorabilia, etc) no hobby out there I can think of at the moment is one purely of instant gratification. They almost all involve some act of creation; planning, acquiring materials, step by step procedure, and finally a finished product. Even that finished product is very often one that could have been purchased of the same or even better quality, yet the individual delayed their gratification for the opportunity for the even greater gratification of having done it themselves.

Despite what the talking heads on TV - who are involved in some way in the instant gratification economy you described - might say, people ENJOY delaying their gratification.
Bonsai I think is just an extreme form of this. Work your whole life to achieve something you'll only get to enjoy for a little while in retirement, all the while think to yourself, "it's done. Well what now?!"

Again, I could go on and on, but 2020 and the succeeding 2 years revealed a great many things about the human condition, mainly that we are inherently an industrious species that enjoys getting our hands dirty.
I suppose that is also true and it depends on your bias and perspective. I have felt that in general people are seeking faster gratification which is also seen in the modern professional bonsai market, where it is more favorable to do transformations and spaghetti wiring to show a great image, despite sometimes it not being the appropriate work to develop a tree further. This also relates to experience in bonsai, and sometimes it is because the customer/hobbyist doesn't know any better or understand. When given the 2 options of 1) style tree now and enjoy said image (but work doesn't last or tree quality gets worse in a few years) vs 2) Grow regions in tree for 1-3 years, then style and have a form that also looks great and continues to look great in the future, many people choose option 1. This is not to say that option 1 does not also require some planning, vested effort, and time but given the choice I felt humans will seek the faster route to gratification.
 
I suppose that is also true and it depends on your bias and perspective. I have felt that in general people are seeking faster gratification which is also seen in the modern professional bonsai market, where it is more favorable to do transformations and spaghetti wiring to show a great image, despite sometimes it not being the appropriate work to develop a tree further. This also relates to experience in bonsai, and sometimes it is because the customer/hobbyist doesn't know any better or understand. When given the 2 options of 1) style tree now and enjoy said image (but work doesn't last or tree quality gets worse in a few years) vs 2) Grow regions in tree for 1-3 years, then style and have a form that also looks great and continues to look great in the future, many people choose option 1. This is not to say that option 1 does not also require some planning, vested effort, and time but given the choice I felt humans will seek the faster route to gratification.
You're not wrong, but I think we can easily divide it roughly into two types of people on a linear spectrum: the instant gratification group vs the delayed gratification group.
The things you just described are the instant people and high volume, factory produced (as it were) mallsai and bonsai-for-interior-design types of markets, versus the bonsai as an art/hobby delayed group.

We could also get into the reasoning behind these divisions, some of which has to do with the sorts of things found in the Reddit and Instagram communities already discussed.

Perhaps I'm optimistic, but I do personally feel that a great deal of the drive for instant gratification is sociological, and that most adults in the world prefer the greater meaning and reward of looking up the road a ways.
That said, the demographic in the US considered to have the highest disposable income, or at least that spend the most, are white tween girls, so, ya know...🤷
In the 80s and early 90s it was teen boys, which is why Nintendo targeted them, creating a false social paradigm averse to female gamers for a generation.

Which brings up the male/female dichotomy in bonsai again.🤔
 
You're not wrong, but I think we can easily divide it roughly into two types of people on a linear spectrum: the instant gratification group vs the delayed gratification group.
The things you just described are the instant people and high volume, factory produced (as it were) mallsai and bonsai-for-interior-design types of markets, versus the bonsai as an art/hobby delayed group.

We could also get into the reasoning behind these divisions, some of which has to do with the sorts of things found in the Reddit and Instagram communities already discussed.

Perhaps I'm optimistic, but I do personally feel that a great deal of the drive for instant gratification is sociological, and that most adults in the world prefer the greater meaning and reward of looking up the road a ways.
That said, the demographic in the US considered to have the highest disposable income, or at least that spend the most, are white tween girls, so, ya know...🤷
In the 80s and early 90s it was teen boys, which is why Nintendo targeted them, creating a false social paradigm averse to female gamers for a generation.

Which brings up the male/female dichotomy in bonsai again.🤔
A lot of great topics to discuss! My previous comment was speaking from personal experience. I am commenting on actually the "delayed" gratification group that seek more expedited work despite it setting back the tree's future. But I think this may be less so from being impatient but rather being less knowledgeable on how good trees are made. Some professionals take advantage of the hobbyists lack of knowledge to do superficial work. I suppose great from a business approach since you minimize the turn around time and satisfy that "instant gratification" urge.

"Perhaps I'm optimistic, but I do personally feel that a great deal of the drive for instant gratification is sociological, and that most adults in the world prefer the greater meaning and reward of looking up the road a ways."

I actually agree with this statement. I have found for all my customers, and the same for my professional friends who share a similar mindset, that when you take the time to really teach concepts of age in cultivation for bonsai--the idea of continually and progressively improving your tree vs work and reworking it over and over, that people adopt it fairly easily. Experiencing that progression over time is very gratifying and once you enjoy the process you place less emphasis on the result which ironically results in the best work being done for the end result of your tree.
 
A lot of great topics to discuss! My previous comment was speaking from personal experience. I am commenting on actually the "delayed" gratification group that seek more expedited work despite it setting back the tree's future. But I think this may be less so from being impatient but rather being less knowledgeable on how good trees are made. Some professionals take advantage of the hobbyists lack of knowledge to do superficial work. I suppose great from a business approach since you minimize the turn around time and satisfy that "instant gratification" urge.

"Perhaps I'm optimistic, but I do personally feel that a great deal of the drive for instant gratification is sociological, and that most adults in the world prefer the greater meaning and reward of looking up the road a ways."

I actually agree with this statement. I have found for all my customers, and the same for my professional friends who share a similar mindset, that when you take the time to really teach concepts of age in cultivation for bonsai--the idea of continually and progressively improving your tree vs work and reworking it over and over, that people adopt it fairly easily. Experiencing that progression over time is very gratifying and once you enjoy the process you place less emphasis on the result which ironically results in the best work being done for the end result of your tree.
Ah, I understand what you were getting at now.
I do believe you're right here. Professional does not always equate to respectable.

Come back around to the original question, I suppose this is another way bonsai is getting harder.
Fast sales require shortsightedness, and that often means setting a tree's development back years when it might have otherwise had excellent potential. This leaves many people wasting years trying to maintain the unsustainable before they learn better, then investing an equal amount of time correcting that.
An unforeseen drawback to the growing popularity of bonsai: Poor material being produced at an ever increasing rate, and novices won't know better until it's too late.
 
Ive never imported but thats one aspect thats not as easy as it used to be for many suppliers. On kaizens recent blog posts he talks about not selling trees anymore in part due to outrageous shipping/import fees and all the new stipulations they have to go through. Herons no longer import either, but grow everything on the nursery.
Another major factor whats making bonsai harder is the ever changing weather! This forum seems to be flooded with issues relating to weather, so I guess thats a big obstacle now too. Just observations, these dont make bonsai harder for me, but I can see how it can for other folk.but global warming
But Global warming is a myth!
 
Experiencing that progression over time is very gratifying and once you enjoy the process you place less emphasis on the result which ironically results in the best work being done for the end result of your tree.
I'm excited every time I get to report repot and uncover some treasure below in bikini bottom
 
But Global warming is a myth!

The truth is undoubtedly clouded by political bias. "Scientists" on both "sides" of the "debate" have been caught fudging the numbers to fit their narrative.

I'm actually optimistic that global warming will have a net positive benefit, once we get past the growing pains that come with change of any sort. More arable farmland to feed more people in total. However, we won't see that benefit until we reach a new equilibrium, and in the meantime there seem to be more drawbacks than benefits.
 
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The truth is undoubtedly clouded by political bias. "Scientists" on both "sides" of the "debate" have been caught fudging the numbers to fit their narrative.
I simply can never make heads or tails out of this issue. There is clearly climate change - but there has been climate change for billions of years. Mankind is contributing to this - but how much? Personally, I'm looking forward to growing tropicals in NY.
 
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