Is bonsai art? - inspired by BVF

[Cadillactaste]

@grouper52 ...now, I'm not of education of anything on this sort of nature as you might be. But...I think Paradox basically meant...at the end of the day. What another classifies bonsai doesn't matter. If it brings you joy,peace and contentment. Though...when you think of how heated ones opinions can go...on who has the right thought process. It just doesn't matter...each one can be right.

In my bubble of the world...it honestly doesn't matter. Though...some trees (bonsai or just trees in nature) I have looked at an amazing trunk from Mother Nature and thought what a piece of art. Human hands can only attempt to mimic...to me...I think to worry over categories and how things fit into the scheme of things...steals ones contentment on their journey if they let what others think that may differ steal their joy. At the end of the day...it's not worth letting it eat ones lunch.

As for the forum...if serves its purpose. But, some topics...there is never a winner. But if bonsai has your heart...and you enjoy it. Then, everyone is a winner. No matter where one places bonsai in a particular category.

 

[Paradox]

@grouper52 ...now, I'm not of education of anything on this sort of nature as you might be. But...I think Paradox basically meant...at the end of the day. What another classifies bonsai doesn't matter. If it brings you joy,peace and contentment. Though...when you think of how heated ones opinions can go...on who has the right thought process. It just doesn't matter...each one can be right.

In my bubble of the world...it honestly doesn't matter. Though...some trees (bonsai or just trees in nature) I have looked at an amazing trunk from Mother Nature and thought what a piece of art. Human hands can only attempt to mimic...to me...I think to worry over categories and how things fit into the scheme of things...steals ones contentment on their journey if they let what others think that may differ steal their joy. At the end of the day...it's not worth letting it eat ones lunch.

As for the forum...if serves its purpose. But, some topics...there is never a winner. But if bonsai has your heart...and you enjoy it. Then, everyone is a winner. No matter where one places bonsai in a particular category.

^^^ This gal gets it

 

[watchndsky]

I know exactly what a forum is and what it for so you dont need to start with a vocabulary lesson.
I think you miss the point of my post.
This argument is like the soil wars. We keep arguing it over and over and over. No one agrees and will never agree. In the end it doesnt matter except to yourself.
You may enjoy arguing the same arguments over and over and over and over and over again.
Some of us dont.

If we decided to label "bonsai" as "dog shit", would it really matter?

this is where i disagree - soil wars at least have the ability to produce something. someone may or may not acquire some knowledge to help their trees.

arguing about art doesnt impact salary, position, civil liberties, produce any art, or change the art itself. its quite literally arguing for arguing's sake.

at least soil wars can have a tangible impact on someone or something. they usually dont from my readings, but the possibility exists. i dont know of any possible outcome of a "what is art" war that provides any impact to anything. maybe i need to think harder. but im eating dinner .

 

[Paradox]

soil wars at least have the ability to produce something. someone may or may not acquire some knowledge to help their trees.
[snip]
at least soil wars can have a tangible impact on someone or something. they usually dont from my readings, but the possibility exists. .

Its possible, yes, if someone reading has an open mind. We have had soil discussions here that have been just arguing for days and just confused newer people even more.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Next up
Soil wars- inspired by watchndsky

 

[Paradox]

Next up
Soil wars- inspired by watchndsky

lol

Good to see that we are all so inspired lately!

Dont you people have trees to work on?!
I did a workshop on Saturday, moved trees around, pruned 3 trees and fed all my trees on Sunday, and repotted 3 trees today.

 

[watchndsky]

lol

Good to see that we are all so inspired lately!

Dont you people have trees to work on?!
I did a workshop on Saturday, moved trees around, pruned 3 trees and fed all my trees on Sunday, and repotted 3 trees today.

heck no im having to do actual work cause its been raining for two days straight here.

 

[jacob letoile]

I know exactly what a forum is and what it for so you dont need to start with a vocabulary lesson.
I think you miss the point of my post.
This argument is like the soil wars. We keep arguing it over and over and over. No one agrees and will never agree. In the end it doesnt matter except to yourself.
You may enjoy arguing the same arguments over and over and over and over and over again.
Some of us dont.

If we decided to label "bonsai" as "dog shit", would it really matter?

And yet here you are, clearly feeling strongly enough about the topic to participate in the discussion. What is it with you that you feel the need to tell people who care how little you care? I will never the urge to declare how little something matters. It is self evidently untrue. There are 9 pages so far argueing about it, including you.

Me, I have an opinion and I enjoy discussing it because it helps me sharpen my thoughts and understand other people's thoughts. I have in fact readjusted my thinking several times due to the points of those who disagree with me. It also is an excellent filter to see who is worth paying attention to. Can they form a coherent argument about something I understand, even if i disagree with it or are they full of shit. If they are full of it when I can see it I am less likely to trust their knowlage about something I don't know much about. My own little antidote to gell-man amnesia.

 

[Paradox]

And yet here you are, clearly feeling strongly enough about the topic to participate in the discussion. What is it with you that you feel the need to tell people who care how little you care? I will never the urge to declare how little something matters. It is self evidently untrue. There are 9 pages so far argueing about it, including you.

Me, I have an opinion and I enjoy discussing it because it helps me sharpen my thoughts and understand other people's thoughts. I have in fact readjusted my thinking several times due to the points of those who disagree with me. It also is an excellent filter to see who is worth paying attention to. Can they form a coherent argument about something I understand, even if i disagree with it or are they full of shit. If they are full of it when I can see it I am less likely to trust their knowlage about something I don't know much about. My own little antidote to gell-man amnesia.

You joined in September, not even 6 months ago and you have 24 posts under your belt. Everything here is probably still pretty new to you so its understandable.
Get back to me when you've been here 5+ years with 1000+ posts under your belt and have seen the same topic argued 25+ times. After a while, arguing for the sake of arguing just seems silly sometimes.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I forgot how brutal it really was here.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Get back to me when you've been here 5+ years with 1000+ posts under your belt and have seen the same topic argued 25+ times.

Ha ha ha
I just made the cut
I have seen this topic at least 20 times.

 

[Paradox]

I forgot how brutal it really was here.

It can get that way, especially during the winter when the trees are asleep and we are all bored out of our minds.
Its been a stressful spring too for some of us with the Yo-Yo weather some of us have been having so some might have trees they are worried about.
Can cause tensions to go up a tad I suppose.

 

[Paradox]

Ha ha ha
I just made the cut
I have seen this topic at least 20 times.

 

[jacob letoile]

You joined in September, not even 6 months ago and you have 24 posts under your belt. Everything here is probably still pretty new to you so its understandable.
Get back to me when you've been here 5+ years with 1000+ posts under your belt and have seen the same topic argued 25+ times. After a while, arguing for the sake of arguing just seems silly sometimes.

I'm new to bonsai, but not to the "is this art" question. I try to not say much specific to bonsai, unless it overlaps something i do know something about. Plant nutrition, pesticide application, soil. That sort of thing. Things I know something about, I like to participate in. When they day comes I have read enough about a topic, I'll stop reading about it. It's really that simple. Until then, I like argueing for its own sake. It's as usefull, mabye more so, as sculpting trees.

One of the things that fascinates me about this discussion is which people argue passionately whether bonsai is art, but cannot put forth a coherent definition of what art is. How can you decide whether something is a member of a set when you can't even define the set?

 

[Paradox]

I'm new to bonsai, but not to the "is this art" question. I try to not say much specific to bonsai, unless it overlaps something i do know something about. Plant nutrition, pesticide application, soil. That sort of thing. Things I know something about, I like to participate in. When they day comes I have read enough about a topic, I'll stop reading about it. It's really that simple. Until then, I like argueing for its own sake. It's as usefull, mabye more so, as sculpting trees.

One of the things that fascinates me about this discussion is which people argue passionately whether bonsai is art, but cannot put forth a coherent definition of what art is. How can you decide whether something is a member of a set when you can't even define the set?

yea, Ill admit sometimes I like to argue just to argue (or debate) too. But its spring time and I am just starting to get very busy both at work and at home. My job is very seasonal in nature and spring/summer is the busy time. At home, the the spring tree work and getting our boat ready to go in the water just adds on top. I am just too tired for arguing right now I guess.

What you said about art is very true, and my opinion is that it is a very personal thing which is very hard for a human to put a definition to because it usually involves emotion and feeling and something very personal in how the "art" effects you. That reaction can be very different for each of us so trying to find some common ground can be difficult at best.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

One of the things that fascinates me about this discussion is which people argue passionately whether bonsai is art, but cannot put forth a coherent definition of what art is. How can you decide whether something is a member of a set when you can't even define the set?

I pulled my definition off the web.
Art to me is many things
It is my therapy. Art is creating things which inspire.
It really is that simple to me.
I paint with acrylics on canvas- I'm not trained.
I just enjoy it.
When I used to see this topic come up I didn't really care one way or another.
Now I know it is art to me at least.
I don't need permission from anyone to enjoy this hobby as art.
Ive seen many bonsai artists online who inspire me. Including many right here. I do consider them artists.
In the end it's all semantics.
Tradesman, craftsman, artisan

 

[A Random User]

Just for conversation puropses...
What does matter within the conversation that apparently does not matter...

Is that whether or not one agrees with Bonsai being an Art...

Anyone actually doing Bonsai, would greatly benefit from actually knowing the principals of Art... and it's basic foundations.

This is sadly something no one can argue with seeing that all of a tree's actual design is based in the fundamentals of Art itself.

This is why in so many ways it is quite interesting to see so many people try and distance themselves from Art, from the very thing that would actually help them improve what it is they are not a part of.

A little like someone wanting to be an Electricion... yet not giving two shits about what Electricity actually is...

 

[A Random User]

Hummmm...

So...

If one says make the bottom of the padding "Flat"...
Why?
Because someone told me to do it this way?
And I have no brain cells... just following orders? And that is what people have just done for centuries. .. just mindlessly followed orders?

Or, do you think it has something to do with the whole notion of the power of a straight line, and it's impact in regards to a composition that is comprised entirely for the most part, of lines that are not straight. And that by creating a straight line you are for the most part putting a exclamation point into this composition. A definite stop? And how one can play with such concepts to give the apparence of perhaps a much larger tree... a much smaller tree, or even the appearance of movement within a tree that otherwise has none?

I mean... do people really think we create negative spacing within our trees just for birds to fly through?
If so... that is very considerate of people...
Silly question... if birds can actually fly... why not fly arround?

Yep... who needs Art!

Can't wait till some folks here start displaying trees and have to think about composition, weight, the power of lines within a stand... a pot... or my favorite. .. it distracts from the tree to much...

How?

Well if one was to understand the principals of Art and it's foundations... then you could perhaps actually explain why? Other than... I don't know... I just don't like it... or it just does....

Monkey See-Ya... Monkey Do-Ya!!!
Too many Monkeys in this Sinking Ship!

 

[JoeR]

Ah, LOL!, a bit of tongue-in-cheek self-puffery was taken too seriously. Hard to convey the tone if someone's tone-deaf . . . You may note the tongue-in-cheek theme running through much of my postings here.

I was just pulling your chain lol I know you weren't being that way when you typed it. I thought it was funny though

 

[ArtistWolf]

Even the ugliest bonsai has one good angle. Somewhere. After all, drift wood is gorgeous!