Is bonsai art? - inspired by BVF

[MichaelS]

MichaelS.

I follow your notion of "incomplete".

You see a bigger picture than most.

A deeper thinker....

Don't Fucking drown in this shallow pool trying to deflate the swim bladder of lesser fish.

Leave them in the shallows.

You'll end up wanting to slap yourself in the face With a Box jellyfish if you try to make sense of this here popcorn play.

@MichaelS
@sawgrass

How bout .this....

Post your best/longest worked Tree Right Now.

Sorce

Thanks @sorce Keep up the thinking!
I bored with this thread.

 

[grouper52]

One of the things that fascinates me about this discussion is which people argue passionately whether bonsai is art, but cannot put forth a coherent definition of what art is. How can you decide whether something is a member of a set when you can't even define the set?

Well, some class acts here seem to think it helps us decide if they use a lot of profanity.

 

[grouper52]

1. 
   Well, back in '07, for those who didn't follow the link above, I think (IMOSHO) I came up with a definition of art that may help those still interested in answering the original question of the thread. I quote:
   
   "So, then, how about this attempt at a definition:
   
   Visual art is defined as a human activity that creates a visual form for the purpose of evoking an inspiring emotional response in viewers.
   
   An object of such visual art would then be the form created."
   
   ______________________________________________________________________
   
   For an understanding how that definition fit in with all the side discussions at that time, and now, the reader is referred to the original 2007 thread.
   
   And yes, by my definition, bonsai is a visual art, not merely a craft. It can also be a hobby, and perhaps a hobbyist's audience of viewers might be limited to himself or herself alone, but even then the definition holds true because the artist/audience-of-one has created the visual form for the purpose of evoking an inspiring emotional response as he/she beholds the beauty created.

N'uff said! (Or, as they said back in '07, "Elvis has left the building.")

 

[jacob letoile]

yea, Ill admit sometimes I like to argue just to argue (or debate) too. But its spring time and I am just starting to get very busy both at work and at home. My job is very seasonal in nature and spring/summer is the busy time. At home, the the spring tree work and getting our boat ready to go in the water just adds on top. I am just too tired for arguing right now I guess.

What you said about art is very true, and my opinion is that it is a very personal thing which is very hard for a human to put a definition to because it usually involves emotion and feeling and something very personal in how the "art" effects you. That reaction can be very different for each of us so trying to find some common ground can be difficult at best.

My busy season is in full swing as well. I have fields to plant, tractors that need fixing, employees to supervise. Too much really. This is a really pleasant diversion for me I don't really know what art is, over time I have been able to describe some of its affects, for me. So a quick punch list:
It makes me feel something strongly. I can be calm, joy, revulsion rage happiness but looking at it must evoke a feeling.
It must make me think about more than the material in front of me. It must expose some part of the human condition that was not apparent. My wife likes to say it hides the obvious and makes manifest the hidden.
I also like to use "art is what gives meaning and purpose to that which without it would have none"

By each of these punch points a Bonsai can qualify as Art. So is the piss christ I'm comfortable with that.

Just for conversation puropses...
What does matter within the conversation that apparently does not matter...

Is that whether or not one agrees with Bonsai being an Art...

Anyone actually doing Bonsai, would greatly benefit from actually knowing the principals of Art... and it's basic foundations.

This is sadly something no one can argue with seeing that all of a tree's actual design is based in the fundamentals of Art itself.

This is why in so many ways it is quite interesting to see so many people try and distance themselves from Art, from the very thing that would actually help them improve what it is they are not a part of.

A little like someone wanting to be an Electricion... yet not giving two shits about what Electricity actually is...

If I understand what your saying here, and in your other comments, a craft becomes art when it is a conversation between the craft person and the consumer. If the creator is trying to say something through their craft, that becomes art. Is this a reasonable paraphrase of your definition?

This is one of the definitions that I struggle with, it doesn't ring true to me mostly because, in my view art is an interaction between the viewer and the work. The creator can do their best to shape the viewers experience but that is ultimately out of the creators control. I respect your definition, as I understand it, but probably because my experience with art for most of my life has been centered around the consumer, my understanding of art is very consumer centric.

 

[Bolero]

Back in the old days including Renisance Europe, The Old Masters, The Impressionist's and most modern day artist's also painted or sculptured to make some money, they were usually commissioned by the Church, the Pope of the Times or Wealthy citizens of the Time...maybe they were just Decorators as in the Michael Angelo case & the Sistine Chapel...???
However.... their work was so impressionable and notable that it was considered Art and usually after the Artist Decorater dies....IMO FWIW

 

[Cadillactaste]

I forgot how brutal it really was here.

I'm kind of getting bored by it. Does that make me numb to it? It's just same old same old after awhile. I'm ready to just go tinker in my yard...enjoy my trees. I've gained a lot of knowledge here...respect a lot of people. But, rehashing things that are opinions and not effecting my growth in the hobby is a waist of time. (sorry that's where I stand) When I can be sipping a beverage and enjoying the view of my yard...my trees. I am thinking I'm spending far to much time here again. For what... ? Oh I won't be leaving...just not as much time I think. We get a few good topics to be derailed...I do appreciate the attempts to create threads to get the rabbit hole trails out of a good thread topic though. Discussing it elsewhere is the better option. Cleans up threads meant for another direction. But one can only circle around so many times...and lose interest.

 

[Smoke]

I'm kind of getting bored by it. Does that make me numb to it? It's just same old same old after awhile. I'm ready to just go tinker in my yard...enjoy my trees. I've gained a lot of knowledge here...respect a lot of people. But, rehashing things that are opinions and not effecting my growth in the hobby is a waist of time. (sorry that's where I stand) When I can be sipping a beverage and enjoying the view of my yard...my trees. I am thinking I'm spending far to much time here again. For what... ? Oh I won't be leaving...just not as much time I think. We get a few good topics to be derailed...I do appreciate the attempts to create threads to get the rabbit hole trails out of a good thread topic though. Discussing it elsewhere is the better option. Cleans up threads meant for another direction. But one can only circle around so many times...and lose interest.

One loses interest because the more crap you read and the more opinions read one finally feels that the whole art thing is really not that important in the big scheme of things.

What you call yourself makes no difference in what you create. Just like a thousand dollars worth of Masakuni tools don't make better bonsai nor does akadama or a highly patinated pot. If one is creating pigs, we call all that other stuff "lipstick".

 

[Cadillactaste]

One loses interest because the more crap you read and the more opinions read one finally feels that the whole art thing is really not that important in the big scheme of things.

What you call yourself makes no difference in what you create. Just like a thousand dollars worth of Masakuni tools don't make better bonsai nor does akadama or a highly patinated pot. If one is creating pigs, we call all that other stuff "lipstick".

NAILED IT! That is where I'm at right now.

 

[A Random User]

MichaelS.

I follow your notion of "incomplete".

You see a bigger picture than most.

A deeper thinker....

Don't Fucking drown in this shallow pool trying to deflate the swim bladder of lesser fish.

Leave them in the shallows.

You'll end up wanting to slap yourself in the face With a Box jellyfish if you try to make sense of this here popcorn play.

@MichaelS
@sawgrass


How bout .this....

Post your best/longest worked Tree Right Now.

Sorce

@sorce

Sorry, Sorce...
Just now seeing this... I have you Blocked and for some reason or another, not sure why? Your post showed up when Michael replied to it... which isn't suppose to happen, seeing this is the whole reason to Block someone... so you don't actually have to read what they posted....
But Hey.... this is the Nut.

So, just to keep this not an insulting reply... and to follow suit with all that you have posted here. Seeing there really is no point.

I will instead just ask the following...

If I have been only doing Bonsai for going on 12 years now...

And you want me to have a pissing contest, with Micheal who has been doing Bonsai for 30 years...

With the whole goal of the pissing contest being to show who has the "Best - Longest Worked Trees"... knowing that I have been doing Bonsai for less than half... of what Micheal has been doing...

Does this really in the slightest way... seem to make any sense to you?

Again... I am not trying to be insulting here. Just simply asking the question?

If it does... than sure count me in!
I mean... Why Not? Lol!
It really could not be any worse than what normally is going on around here...
Right?

You post the thread regarding it... you can have a poll... where everyone votes. Everyone can vote honestly... and pick Michael's tree...
Seeing that it will not be about the actual trees, or the actual work... but a popularity contest in the first place.

And you will of somehow proved your point, even though it logically makes no sense...
But this will not matter, Right?

Seeing that really the whole point is you just don't like what I say... or do...and are keeping a personal beef. Even though I have offered up help or advice to you in the past... and would probably do the same in the future.

Shall we discuss Big fish... Small fish now?
I think it would be quite clear who is which?

Not really sure what this has to do with the Subject of the thread? Or if it has anything to do with the subject of the thread? My guess is that it probably has nothing to do actually with the subject of the thread? But, I clearly do not see things the same way as you do?

Let me know when you need me to post up my tree. I am sure we can all learn a lot from the experience.

Thanks

 

[A Random User]

One loses interest because the more crap you read and the more opinions read one finally feels that the whole art thing is really not that important in the big scheme of things.

What you call yourself makes no difference in what you create. Just like a thousand dollars worth of Masakuni tools don't make better bonsai nor does akadama or a highly patinated pot. If one is creating pigs, we call all that other stuff "lipstick".

This is interesting.
I seem to recall many post you made a couple years back going though discussing the topic of display and which stands one should use... what types of pots, scrolls etc. And the reasoning for using such...

Unless this is of course someone else who posted all this stuff?

If none of it mattered or wasn't really that important in the overall scheme of things...
We're you just supplying us with lipstick to put on our pigs?

I thought it mattered at the time...
Still do...
And despite me not actually fully agreeing with you on a number of issues... I still thought it was valuable and was glad you had contributed it even if it was only lipstick.

 

[MichaelS]

MichaelS.

I follow your notion of "incomplete".

You see a bigger picture than most.

A deeper thinker....

Don't Fucking drown in this shallow pool trying to deflate the swim bladder of lesser fish.

Leave them in the shallows.

You'll end up wanting to slap yourself in the face With a Box jellyfish if you try to make sense of this here popcorn play.

@MichaelS
@sawgrass


How bout .this....

Post your best/longest worked Tree Right Now.

Sorce

@sorce

Sorry, Sorce...
Just now seeing this... I have you Blocked and for some reason or another, not sure why? Your post showed up when Michael replied to it... which isn't suppose to happen, seeing this is the whole reason to Block someone... so you don't actually have to read what they posted....
But Hey.... this is the Nut.

So, just to keep this not an insulting reply... and to follow suit with all that you have posted here. Seeing there really is no point.

I will instead just ask the following...

If I have been only doing Bonsai for going on 12 years now...

And you want me to have a pissing contest, with Micheal who has been doing Bonsai for 30 years...

With the whole goal of the pissing contest being to show who has the "Best - Longest Worked Trees"... knowing that I have been doing Bonsai for less than half... of what Micheal has been doing...

Does this really in the slightest way... seem to make any sense to you?

Again... I am not trying to be insulting here. Just simply asking the question?

If it does... than sure count me in!
I mean... Why Not? Lol!
It really could not be any worse than what normally is going on around here...
Right?

You post the thread regarding it... you can have a poll... where everyone votes. Everyone can vote honestly... and pick Michael's tree...
Seeing that it will not be about the actual trees, or the actual work... but a popularity contest in the first place.

And you will of somehow proved your point, even though it logically makes no sense...
But this will not matter, Right?

Seeing that really the whole point is you just don't like what I say... or do...and are keeping a personal beef. Even though I have offered up help or advice to you in the past... and would probably do the same in the future.

Shall we discuss Big fish... Small fish now?
I think it would be quite clear who is which?

Not really sure what this has to do with the Subject of the thread? Or if it has anything to do with the subject of the thread? My guess is that it probably has nothing to do actually with the subject of the thread? But, I clearly do not see things the same way as you do?

Let me know when you need me to post up my tree. I am sure we can all learn a lot from the experience.

Thanks

Look, this thing is getting out of hand and I'm sorry I even brought it up but I'll just try to clarify one more time where I'm coming from.
When I see comments regarding someone being referred to as an artist, the image that comes to mind is someone who has slaved away with his/her work day in day out, without any consideration to their finances, health or public standing. Someone who above all else seeks to bring out an individual and deeply personal thought or idea from the deepest recesses of their minds and are hardly ever satisfied with what they do. Someone who hardly cares if the work they do is recognized by others and the only important thing is that burning desire to turn their dream into some kind of external form whether it be sound, movement or physical form.
Looking at the work of bonsai people, I just don't see that. Most of the time, the way I see it, the shaping of the trees, - and that includes mine - is rather superficial and standardized. That does not mean they are not skilled, nor does it mean that they cannot create true masterpieces of form, nor does it mean that they cannot have the same dedication (if not more) than the first group. I liken that kind of work more like the master stone mason who has the skill to build some magnificent cathedral or something like that. That's why I see craftsmen who call themselves artists or who are called artists as pretentious, and reducing the meaning of what I see as true artists. However!, I also think there is good and bad art and good and bad artists just as there is good and bad bonsai.

 

[Cadillactaste]

This is interesting.
I seem to recall many post you made a couple years back going though discussing the topic of display and which stands one should use... what types of pots, scrolls etc. And the reasoning for using such...

Unless this is of course someone else who posted all this stuff?

If none of it mattered or wasn't really that important in the overall scheme of things...
We're you just supplying us with lipstick to put on our pigs?

I thought it mattered at the time...
Still do...
And despite me not actually fully agreeing with you on a number of issues... I still thought it was valuable and was glad you had contributed it even if it was only lipstick.

Wow...you really feel the two compare? They are night and day different.

Ones opinion on if bonsai is an art or how to set up a display and such. Sounds more like one with many years of bonsai and show experience offering a bit of guidance. I'm sure you knew the difference but are trying to poke with a stick. Shaking head...first poking at Sorce. Didn't know how you seen his post...but, went on about it. Then, chose to not show a tree. Gotcha...shaking head at how I let you draw me in...but, go ahead...have the last word. I just can't grasp how your gerbil works...honestly, I can't. But...trust me. Not losing any sleep trying to figure you out. You have talent...are quite an artist with the brush. I give you that...

 

[sorce]

And you want me to have a pissing contest, with Micheal who has been doing Bonsai for 30 years...

Hell Yeah!

I just don't see how after 30 years he ain't figured out what he does for himself....

I don't see why say so much to change a 30 year old opinion that's based in every truth so far.

Like you need one Australian mind to change to validate it for yourself.

Who Cares?

Their snakes don't coil backward either...

But trees don't grow small themselves either!

Blah.....

I need to get a .new .camera.

Sorce

 

[MichaelS]

@MichaelS

Anyone who's definition of art is such that a photograph may not be considered art is safely ignored as not having any idea what the words they use mean. Rarely have I seen a word salad as skillfully tossed as your barking about what is and is not art. One would almost call it an artistic performance. A performance art, if you will.

I'm not sure why your bleating on the subject irritates me so, but boy are your opinions unconstrained by reality.

Ha ha, this made me smile. @jacob letoile Very droll! Very nicely constructed. Unfortunately wrong
Photography is a wonderful thing. I wish I were better at it. However, not art is it? What are you doing if you play around with shading, focus, colour, exposure, light etc. etc. with something that already exists? You are decorating it. Just like you do when you hang stuff on a Christmas tree. Oh look I'm dimming the lights in this room and lighting a candle. I'm doing art!
If photography was art, the person who decides that the person he is shooting should move to the left is doing art too. Why not? He is manipulating the image and crating a composition. Hell I can draw a red outline around the Mona Lisa and that's the same thing just more simple. Complexity and skill does not equal art. A child who sits in an empty room and scribbles something from his head is art. So what was it that you said about reality?
Raining today....nothing to do you understand.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Ha ha, this made me smile. @jacob letoile Very droll! Very nicely constructed. Unfortunately wrong
Photography is a wonderful thing. I wish I were better at it. However, not art is it? What are you doing if you play around with shading, focus, colour, exposure, light etc. etc. with something that already exists?

Photography is art to me.
But when I learned it was old school. Developing film in a dark room with chemicals, push processing, printing with the negative in hand.
It's actually more fun now with digital.
If you haven't experienced photo art you should look into it.
But you won't have money for your trees if you get into it.

 

[MichaelS]

1. 
   
   Visual art is defined as a human activity that creates a visual form for the purpose of evoking an inspiring emotional response in viewers.
   
   
   

No I don't think this is right either. The purpose of art is simply a means for the creator to express himself. (express as in ''expel'' not ''convey'') Not for the sake of a viewer. In other words, it does not require a witness. The fact the someone desires to witness is secondary. It is already art BEFORE it is seen. Art is a mind ejaculation.

 

[0soyoung]

logic : emotion :: science : art

This ain't science.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

No I don't think this is right either. The purpose of art is simply a means for the creator to express himself. (express as in ''expel'' not ''convey'') Not for the sake of a viewer. In other words, it does not require a witness. The fact the someone desires to witness is secondary. It is already art BEFORE it is seen. Art is a mind ejaculation.

The definition you quoted states -visual art
Therefore would need to be seen.
Are you even serious about this?

 

[MichaelS]

The definition you quoted states -visual art
Therefore would need to be seen.
Are you even serious about this?

You're are missing my point CG. It does not need to be seen (or heard or whatever) by anyone but the artist. All it needs is for the creator to be satisfied that what was inside is now outside. Nothing more. It does not ''all of a sudden'' become art when someone else looks at it. It doesn't matter if it is never seen again. Many paintings are never seen by anyone but the painter.
Remember too, I'm talking about the ''purpose'' here not the definition. The purpose is for relief. Scratching an itch if you like.

 

[A Random User]

Hell Yeah!

I just don't see how after 30 years he ain't figured out what he does for himself....

I don't see why say so much to change a 30 year old opinion that's based in every truth so far.

Like you need one Australian mind to change to validate it for yourself.

Who Cares?

Their snakes don't coil backward either...

But trees don't grow small themselves either!

Blah.....

I need to get a .new .camera.

Sorce

Did you Start the Thread?
I didn't see it?
Told you... just let me know.