Intelligent conversation of the Literati

Dorian Fourie

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I agree on the bend it doesn't feel right in the first picture. I kinda like 4 myself
Too!

Sorce
Hi Guys.

I also like 4 because of the flow of the trunk and one doesn't see that unnatural curve. The problem I see is that it goes backwards and away from the person viewing it. Wouldn't that be a problem? The canopy can be worked to come forwards though if styled properly

Thoughts?
 

Vance Wood

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I agree on the bend it doesn't feel right in the first picture. I kinda like 4 myself
It looks plausible, and in my way of thinking and just my way of thinking; though a Literati is a fanciful form that most(the books) say does not exist in nature must look as though there were a series of natural events that created it. Nature most of the time does not cause a tree to grow in circles, a tree's natural response to disaster is to seek the light.
 

Dorian Fourie

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It looks plausible, and in my way of thinking and just my way of thinking; though a Literati is a fanciful form that most(the books) say does not exist in nature must look as though there were a series of natural events that created it. Nature most of the time does not cause a tree to grow in circles, a tree's natural response to disaster is to seek the light.
I agree with you on that Vance.
Thanks for your input.

So if we take pic 4 as the new front this could be an option. (Pardon my poor mockup)

Literat 1.jpg
 

Vance Wood

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I agree with you on that Vance.
Thanks for your input.

So if we take pic 4 as the new front this could be an option. (Pardon my poor mockup)

View attachment 134315
BUT: If you take this view as the front you are faed with that horrible root coming off the right side. I do not know how significant that root is in the life support of your tree but in this you find the problem of trying to develop a tree while in a bonsai pot. The next time you repot this tree I would check to see if it is possible to remove it altogether without killing the tree. If not I would see about planting the tree into a deeper soil and air-layering a new root system above that root.
 

Dorian Fourie

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BUT: If you take this view as the front you are faed with that horrible root coming off the right side. I do not know how significant that root is in the life support of your tree but in this you find the problem of trying to develop a tree while in a bonsai pot. The next time you repot this tree I would check to see if it is possible to remove it altogether without killing the tree. If not I would see about planting the tree into a deeper soil and air-layering a new root system above that root.
I do not think removing that root will be a problem

When I repotted it in Aug 2016 - This was the root mass
14021708_608364772677960_1903461080691222550_n.jpg


I am sure it could be removed and maybe extend the wound above it downwards to flow into the area where the root was removed to make it one large wound?
 

aml1014

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I do not think removing that root will be a problem

When I repotted it in Aug 2016 - This was the root mass
14021708_608364772677960_1903461080691222550_n.jpg


I am sure it could be removed and maybe extend the wound above it downwards to flow into the area where the root was removed to make it one large wound?
My only fear if you lose that root is that you will create an area of inverse taper directly above the soil line, might detract from the image more then the root does?

Aaron
 

Vance Wood

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After looking closer at this tree I see another problem; if you remove the root you will have a reverse taper below that point. There is another alternative in that of planting the tree so as to remove the visual gap between the root and the base of the tree. This will require planting the tree a bit lower and inclining the trunk slightly to the left to close that gap.
 

aml1014

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After looking closer at this tree I see another problem; if you remove the root you will have a reverse taper below that point. There is another alternative in that of planting the tree so as to remove the visual gap between the root and the base of the tree. This will require planting the tree a bit lower and inclining the trunk slightly to the left to close that gap.
We were thinking the same thing;)

Aaron
 

Vance Wood

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Here is one of my Literati Scots Pines I recently pulled out of shelter because of the weather. Most of my Literati bonsai kind of fall into the category of being quasi-Literati. They posses the qualities of a Literati in that they are minimalistic, but they also tend to look like they are trying to become something else.

DSC_0189.JPG
 

Dorian Fourie

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After looking closer at this tree I see another problem; if you remove the root you will have a reverse taper below that point. There is another alternative in that of planting the tree so as to remove the visual gap between the root and the base of the tree. This will require planting the tree a bit lower and inclining the trunk slightly to the left to close that gap.
My only fear if you lose that root is that you will create an area of inverse taper directly above the soil line, might detract from the image more then the root does?

Aaron
Thanks Aaron and Vince. I never thought of that but understand and now see what you mean. I will remember this once I look at repotting in spring. Maybe not into a pot yet but removing the root and filling up the soil line
 

thumblessprimate1

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I agree with you on that Vance.
Thanks for your input.

So if we take pic 4 as the new front this could be an option. (Pardon my poor mockup)

View attachment 134315
Dorian, I sort of like the large root. I would only modify it to be at the soil line.
 

Potawatomi13

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Smoke, this is a very good thread. I know you have me on ignore, I hope you open it up to read this post, you can return me to ignore afterwards.

I do think that everyone has a mental image of what a literati or bunjin should look like. I suppose that depends on where each person first became aware of trees. Imprinting, I guess.

I grew up in Georgia, at a time before the Interstates were built, and there were huge forests of loblolly pines surrounding Atlanta. These were second growth forests, the trees were telephone pole straight, bare of branches for the first 50 feet, no real jins evident, maybe little short stubs of Jin, more like snags. Each tree was fairly bushy up top, where the branches were fairly thin. They didn't extend very far from the trunk because if the did, they would then be in the canopy of the tree next to it, and get shaded out. These trees were then very top heavy, and when the wind blew strong, they would sway a lot! Being fairly closely packed together, all the pines' trunks were straight, very little taper, and there was a bit of spreading nebari, but not much.

None of these, obviously, had a literati feel even though they had long slender trunks.

But every now and then, there would be a "lone pine". Maybe a subdivision had been cleared, and they left one or two pines on a corner lot. Or along the highway... these pines had no close neighbors to out compete for height, so their branches could grow long. The thing is, these trees are genetically programmed to grow thin branches, and be rather short because in their natural state of a crowded forest, long branches don't give the tree an advantage, the neighbor tree shades them out. So the branches are thin. And weak. We get ice storms about every 5 years that cover the trees with ice. Many weak pine limbs break. Many others are so weighted down they crack and bend down, but not break off. Many pines fall. (Hell on the power lines!)

The solitary pines during these ice storms usually fair pretty well. Since they get more sun, their branches are usually stronger than the forest trees, thus they tend to bend rather than break.

Young pines (under 10 years old) can be so weighted down they can curve to the point where their apex touches the ground! Much of that curve can remain even after the ice has melted. I remember a row of pines on a Church's property from the ice storm of 1962. Bent the trees over double. Over the next 30 years they grew up straight. Crazy S curves! They've all been cut down now.

Anyway, my mind's eye of a literati is an old pine, with plated bark, hanging branches, some movement to the trunk.

Junipers are not native to my area, but pines are. Which, I suppose, why I prefer pine bonsai.

Back in the day, I had a nice Virginia Pine literati. They make good literati because they bark up, but don't put on heavy trunks. I wish I still had it, but that way before I knew about good soil. It was very weak, and wobbly (very little roots) and it's moving when the wind blew probably prevented it from developing new feeder roots.

I have a literati prospect, but it will be 10 years before it barks up:

View attachment 127145

This tree has a lot of literati features, but I consider it too lush and the trunk is a bit too heavy to be a literati:

View attachment 127142

Absolutely LOVE last tree:eek:!
 

sorce

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Dorian, I sort of like the large root. I would only modify it to be at the soil line.

@Dorian Fourie I don't just like that root...

If we are going to define deciduous literate.....
We must start at the beginning.

That root, with that wound, is the beginning of this one's story.

Without that root, there will be no reason as to why that tree grew the rest of the way it did.

It will be, just a shitty stick jammed into a pot by a Human.

IMO.

Sorce
 

Dorian Fourie

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@Dorian Fourie I don't just like that root...

If we are going to define deciduous literate.....
We must start at the beginning.

That root, with that wound, is the beginning of this one's story.

Without that root, there will be no reason as to why that tree grew the rest of the way it did.

It will be, just a shitty stick jammed into a pot by a Human.

IMO.

Sorce
Hi Sorce

I tend to agree with you on this. The story has to start so why not the beginning. But if you look at the virt that I did, I will have to make sure that the root is flush with the soil. It cannot be raised above the soil.

I am still of the feeling that the wound on the trunk be extended downwards and more round to the front.

Thoughts?
 

Dorian Fourie

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I like that.

I wouldn't mind seeing you slowly get that wound to connect all the way to the roots one.

Surely it could be dragged around front.
Thanks Sorce

Another quick virt.

Sunk the tree down lower into the pot and put a wound down to the root just to get an idea.
Literat 1.jpg
 

sorce

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quick virt.

A lot of this doesn't matter cuz it is a literate....

But I think the longer Shari should be sleek, thin, and cut really precise to match the callousing in the other...

Not grinded in, just a sexy slit to the smooth heart wood.

I know the top wound is already wide...
So it may be difficult to match it to up there...
But also, I would try to take some of the reverse taper out of the trunk up there.

Last....I wonder if bending the trunk somewhere, to put the center of gravity a little more left, wouldn't add to the story of why that one root is so large.
Give it a little more weight to have to have grown bigger to hold up.

I appreciate you letting me think about your trees Dorian!

Think think the magical tool the more you think the better the tree!

It's funny how a tree so simple is really not!

Sorce
 
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