Instant Bonsai..The New Trend???

[october]

Here is something I have noticed a gradual change in. About 10 years ago. It seemed that instant bonsai was, for lack of a better term, frowned upon. Not necessarilly bad, but not encouraged. Now, it seems the focus is to get the oldest, best or most expensive material, whether bought or collected, and after one styling (depending oN the skill of the artist) you have a magnificent bonsai. Where all there is left to do, is let the tree grow out, remove the wire and pot it up. To solidify my assessment..when is the last time you heard the term "instant bonsai". Probably haven't heard it in a while. Some of you may not have heard it at all. Yet, about 8-10 years ago, the term was thrown around quite often, probably almost daily.

It seems, like many things, we have evolved into a quicker way of doing things. Seem like the older bonsai masters are still doing the 20-30 year route or taking 10 years to grow an apex on their trees. However, the younger generation of masters seem to be creating masterpieces within 3 years or less. To substantiate this. Many of the young and well known artists have only been in the hobby for around 6-7 years. It is chronologically impossible for them to have a tree in training for 20 years.

Personally, I do not have a take on this. If the material allows for a beautiful bonsai created in one styling and it does not risk the health of the tree, then so be it. However, If you are familiar with the John Naka books, you will see the vast majority of his bonsai developed over a 20-30 year period. Also, in many cases, they were not developed from super stock.

Ironically enough, the older masters, who have less time left are still doing 20 year plus progression projects. On the other hand, the younger masters are doing projects that are almost completed in 3-5 years.

Any others see these trends?

Rob

 

[Bill S]

Agree enough on your points Rob.
Do you see a difference between the results, i think I do, and I think there is a fine line between them, the longer term trees have a bit of something better if I may use the term.

Good bad or other wise?????

 

[Tona]

I think it is just that "Collecting" trees has become the rage. This allows just what you are alluding to: Good Bonsai created in a few years time. But not "Instant Bonsai". Collecting large trunk junipers and grafting nice foliage can be produce a great tree in about 5 years or less. If the original foliage is maintained the time is even shorter. My take is: Whatever method works to create a good/great Bonsai tree is a good method. It seems to be all about large trunks now. The fact is: Nature has been training these big trunks for years. Now the challenge after collecting is to keep them healthy and style them.
I think though that the term "Instant Bonsai" was more geared towards the "Malsai" trees. Garden trees that were shaped and stuck in pots to be sold at stores or by roadside vendors.
My two cents
Tona

 

[GrimLore]

I have been studying under my Wife for years. A few years ago I started to slowly collect, purchase, and grow a LOT of trees. This Spring I will have a lot of seedling/saplings to play with. What "I" have been planning and will do is produce a decent amount of step-by-step journals to show a fair decent amount of "things" normal in Bonsai with these little trees. Fact is they will be "little" as I do not appreciate or really understand the "quick approach" to huge trees. I prefer to "see" tiny looking large - my trees will grow large long after I am gone but in my humble opinion this will make me happy and perhaps give a lot of people with tiny healthy trees a good "understanding" of this art without "sitting on their hands". I am hoping it will inspire many to take "the long road"...

 

[october]

Hi Bill..good to hear from you.. Many years ago, I remember someone had written one of their workshop experiences. If I remember correctly, it went something like this. I will tell the story as if I was the individual. I just finished my tree and was looking at it and admiring it. I thought it looks pretty good. An older gentleman walked by, looked at my tree and said..This will be a nice tree in 10 years. I thought 10 years, I thought it looked good now.

As far as an opinion, I am not sure if you can necessarliy tell the difference, probably so. However, I do know that when you put a lot of effort into a tree, over time you build almost an intimate relationship with it. You create the style, you possibly had to nurse it back to health first and you get to see it develop with each step. If you have instant creation, almost this whole process is eliminated. I am not sure if it is possible to forge as strong of an attachemnt to an instantly created bonsai. I mean in time you can, but you cannot compare something you have created from the beginning and kept alive for 20 years to something that was created in 1 afternoon.

Here is an indicative example of what I mean. Check out this link. This makes all the points of this discussion. Creating from nothing over a long period of time and the proud feelings that accompany it. One of the most beautiful progressions of have ever seen.

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12523-progression-of-a-neea-buxifolia-in-9-years

 

[october]

I think it is just that "Collecting" trees has become the rage. This allows just what you are alluding to: Good Bonsai created in a few years time. But not "Instant Bonsai". Collecting large trunk junipers and grafting nice foliage can be produce a great tree in about 5 years or less. If the original foliage is maintained the time is even shorter. My take is: Whatever method works to create a good/great Bonsai tree is a good method. It seems to be all about large trunks now. The fact is: Nature has been training these big trunks for years. Now the challenge after collecting is to keep them healthy and style them.
I think though that the term "Instant Bonsai" was more geared towards the "Malsai" trees. Garden trees that were shaped and stuck in pots to be sold at stores or by roadside vendors.
My two cents
Tona

Hi Tona, you are correct to include mallsai. However, I think the the term encompassed a greater variation. Extending beyond mallsai. Also, yes, it does seem all about large trunks now.

Rob

 

[october]

I have been studying under my Wife for years. A few years ago I started to slowly collect, purchase, and grow a LOT of trees. This Spring I will have a lot of seedling/saplings to play with. What "I" have been planning and will do is produce a decent amount of step-by-step journals to show a fair decent amount of "things" normal in Bonsai with these little trees. Fact is they will be "little" as I do not appreciate or really understand the "quick approach" to huge trees. I prefer to "see" tiny looking large - my trees will grow large long after I am gone but in my humble opinion this will make me happy and perhaps give a lot of people with tiny healthy trees a good "understanding" of this art without "sitting on their hands". I am hoping it will inspire many to take "the long road"...

Hi Grim..very commendable with the journal keeping. I mean, as I said, I am not on either side. I am not sure there is are actually sides. I do however think there is a noticeable trend of the subject of this thread. Honestly, I, personally sometimes subscribe to the 3-5 year plan. I like material that can become nice in 3-5 years. Maybe not finished, but nice. I have some trees that I have been training for maybe 7 years or so. Even now and even in the next couple of years, they will probably not be show stoppers. Nice trees, but not award winning. Which is fine because that is not a priority. One thing that bothers me is unforseen events. I had mentioned in another post about a fungus hitting my trees last year. Now, the 6-7 years of training, on trees where I was already working diligently for them to become nice bonsai is practically lost. What can you do though. Just keep doing what you do because you love it.

Rob

 

[JudyB]

I don't think I'd like a tree that was so finished that I couldn't do anything more with it. But I also don't have enough years to grow a well done tree from seed. So I'm somewhere in the middle.
But I do tend to look for the best thing I can afford that still has styling opportunities, and is still in development.

Good conversation, I saw that post the other day over there at ibc, very nice, but the climate he is in is more or less year round, so progress would be faster than for us in cold places.
That aside, I must admit, that I don't have that kind of long mindedness... don't know if that's a flaw. Probably is, I have plenty...

 

[october]

I don't think I'd like a tree that was so finished that I couldn't do anything more with it. But I also don't have enough years to grow a well done tree from seed. So I'm somewhere in the middle.
But I do tend to look for the best thing I can afford that still has styling opportunities, and is still in development.

Good conversation, I saw that post the other day over there at ibc, very nice, but the climate he is in is more or less year round, so progress would be faster than for us in cold places.
That aside, I must admit, that I don't have that kind of long mindedness... don't know if that's a flaw. Probably is, I have plenty...

Hi Judy, I not not noticed the climate.. Ya, so I guess for us, we could add another 3 years or so..lol.. I think when you have a smaller collection of trees, it becomes harder as far as patience are concerned. I figured out many years ago that one of the secrets of the older masters patience are the large number of trees they have. It is definitely easier to have a bunch of trees in trainign for 20 years when you have about 500 plus bonsai.

Rob

 

[Poink88]

Please qualify what is an "Instant"

For me, I would like the best material I can get or afford (not much) to shorten the journey. I started late and if I start from seeds or seedlings...I won't see one of them become descent bonsai (by my standards) before my maker call me.

My goal is to have some potted and (local) show worthy in 3 years. If that falls in the instant category then I am in that camp. I just don't believe in taking longer than what is necessary. That said, I know the older plants that have been worked on properly cannot be matched by any that was done in just a few years. Even the ones that Kimura transformed...as great as they look, are nothing compared to what they become a decade after. (at least the ones I saw in the mags).

In bonsai, there is no substitute for real years...but we do what we can to "cheat" and create the illusion if we can. Nothing wrong with that. JMHO

 

[dick benbow]

We should expect the american market to be different than the japanese. I tend to be olde school in my thinking, as it was said earlier, in ten years it will be a nice tree. I like nothing better then to watch Ryan Neil make something out of nothing. Beautiful! Is it a bonsai, not yet in my mind, but i can't argue that the tree can be instantly admired.
there will always be something new, trends, products etc and i think it keeps life interesting.
besides I'm not getting any younger and I don't have another 20 years to get my trees where
I'd like to see them.

 

[bwaynef]

However, If you are familiar with the John Naka books, you will see the vast majority of his bonsai developed over a 20-30 year period.

I wonder if improvements regarding technique, soil, watering, and fertilizing can be attributed to the shortening period of development. For instance, I don't see many people preaching the use of Naka's soil recipes.

 

[bwaynef]

I wonder if improvements regarding technique, soil, watering, and fertilizing can be attributed to the shortening period of development.

...I think I said that backwards. You figure out what I meant.

 

[october]

Please qualify what is an "Instant"

For me, I would like the best material I can get or afford (not much) to shorten the journey. I started late and if I start from seeds or seedlings...I won't see one of them become descent bonsai (by my standards) before my maker call me.

My goal is to have some potted and (local) show worthy in 3 years. If that falls in the instant category then I am in that camp. I just don't believe in taking longer than what is necessary. That said, I know the older plants that have been worked on properly cannot be matched by any that was done in just a few years. Even the ones that Kimura transformed...as great as they look, are nothing compared to what they become a decade after. (at least the ones I saw in the mags).

In bonsai, there is no substitute for real years...but we do what we can to "cheat" and create the illusion if we can. Nothing wrong with that. JMHO

D
on't think there is an exact label on instant. Something created in one sitting might cover some of it though.

Rob

 

[october]

We should expect the american market to be different than the japanese. I tend to be olde school in my thinking, as it was said earlier, in ten years it will be a nice tree. I like nothing better then to watch Ryan Neil make something out of nothing. Beautiful! Is it a bonsai, not yet in my mind, but i can't argue that the tree can be instantly admired.
there will always be something new, trends, products etc and i think it keeps life interesting.
besides I'm not getting any younger and I don't have another 20 years to get my trees where
I'd like to see them.

Yes, in some ways, the faster trend might help keep more people interested in it. Let's face it. If all people in the beginning of the bonsai basics classes were told.. You've have created nice future trees today. In about 10 more years, you will be able to show them. I would imagine that many individuals would probably not want to continue.

Rob

 

[october]

I wonder if improvements regarding technique, soil, watering, and fertilizing can be attributed to the shortening period of development. For instance, I don't see many people preaching the use of Naka's soil recipes.

Yes, out of all the information in the Naka books. The soil information seems to be the most disregarded. The simpliest answer is because we do not all live in California and own bonsai nurseries. It all depends on our climates and the way and where we keep our trees.

Rob

 

[Poink88]

Yes, out of all the information in the Naka books. The soil information seems to be the most disregarded. The simpliest answer is because we do not all live in California and own bonsai nurseries. It all depends on our climates and the way and where we keep our trees.

Rob

Also new & better (soil/substrate) products came after...

 

[lordy]

Creating something that appears old is what practioners of bonsai seem to strive to achieve. Carving is one example of accelerating the natural process of aging. This is a widely accepted technique, therefore a way to speed up the process. In effect, creating bonsai faster than if left to natural processes.
Painting deadwood with lime sulfur is another.
As others have said, some of us got such a late start at this that we'd never see anything completed if left to natural devices. Not sure I'd term it as "instant", but I see what you are saying.

 

[october]

It is not really the question of is something instant bonsai or even what is ok or what isn't. There isn't any right or wrong. I think the actual issue is material that takes longer to develop and does not have immediate surface appeal, seems to get neglected more and more. It just seemed that, years ago, there was a sort of balance. You would see many fine specimen pieces of material being instantly transformed into very nice bonsai. However, there was a moderate amount of younger material or material that need many years or work also being made into beautiful bonsai. Hence, the progression link I posted in post #5 of this thread. It seemed there were more of those progressions before. Now, progressions like that seem very few.

Rob

 

[Poink88]

It is not really the question of is something instant bonsai or even what is ok or what isn't. There isn't any right or wrong. I think the actual issue is material that takes longer to develop and does not have immediate surface appeal, seems to get neglected more and more. It just seemed that, years ago, there was a sort of balance. You would see many fine specimen pieces of material being instantly transformed into very nice bonsai. However, there was a moderate amount of younger material or material that need many years or work also being made into beautiful bonsai. Hence, the progression link I posted in post #5 of this thread. It seemed there were more of those progressions before. Now, progressions like that seem very few.

Rob

Rob,

Give me a few years (or decades?) and I might have something to share. Most likely not same quality but I know I am working on several (100?) right now. I actually have couple Neea (same specie as Budi's) that will probably be nice in 10 years.

It is being done...probably by more people than we thought, but as you pointed out,,,it takes time.