Creating an Instant Bonsai

[GrimLore]

The only area where I personally would disagree with what you have said, would be that I personally don't think one always has to spend alot of money on material that has been established in order to create a nice bonsai.

I agree with that statement but myself was referring to "instant Bonsai" being acquired and ready for "show" after a quick style and potting - two different takes on it.

I understand in a way what you say about ramification but I also see in the past you also have posted some darn nice "artsy" plants with no ramification and yes I said darn nice. That does not matter in some cases as when you "create" a weeper with unusual stock not ordinarily seen as weeping. I also one time noticed you gauged an opinion on "Maple Groupies" and the "best of the best require ramification" although you belittled people doing a few "clips" or something similar... So I am certain I knew what you meant as you understand what applies and does not to each person/plant and level they are at although you made a broad statement that can be and is like "wtf" to a lot of people...

No argument intended, I enjoy a good discussion as well.

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

Sure, I can clarify. First of all, I absolutely do think there is such a thing as instant bonsai, even in the strictest sense that (I think) some of you are using that phrase, i.e., instant and excellent bonsai trees. There can be times when one finds, at a nursery, or in a yard, or in the mountain, a tree with a very nice trunk, nebari, apparent age, movement, character, and someone can put that into a nice bonsai pot, prune and wire it, and it looks very pleasing as a bonsai. And that is absolutely instant bonsai. Doesn't mean it can't look better 3 years from now, or 10 years from now, or 30 years from now, but yesterday it was a nursery plant or a landscape plant or a wild plant, and today, it is a bonsai. It takes both luck and skill (although a lot more of one will compensate for less of the other), but it can be done.

But even if it's not that sort of amazing material, what would you call a tree that someone bought, did some initial work on, and put into a bonsai pot, if not bonsai? And if it is bonsai, even if not as refined as what one might expect to be in a show, but it was put together immediately from nursery stock or whatever, how is that not "instant" and why the negative or even condescending connotation behind combining the two words?

Thanks for the clarification and the reply. There is no condescending here, in fact I have found just the opposite to be true... which I have stated in my opening post of this thread.

I have found, especially after doing my tree for the big box store a tone that shortly went around afterwards, of one that I personally view as if what I and the others was perhaps somehow, not doing bonsai. Or if nothing else, not doing good bonsai, which I didn't get, and still don't.
Which is why I have posted this thread, in the hopes of describing my logic behind where I am at and, also, that others may do the same, whether they agreed or not.
In the hopes that we all could perhaps better understand each other and not have a negative tone.

For, me I personally have alot of trees that I have grown out and continue to do so. I have trees that may not be anywhere near finished, or at least ready to show in my lifetime. However, the tree I did for the competition, didn't need all of this done. I didn't need to regrow new main branches, they were already there. I didn't need to grow out the trunk, it was already there. The nebari, or in my case the exposed roots, were for the most part already there. They just needed to be exposed, and perhaps some work in making them look good.

So, what was left? The tree will obviously, need to have years and years of ramification done. And perhaps as the tree grows, one might want or need to adjust or remove sections of the main branching. But, for the most part the shape, or style will not really change, unless one just chooses to do so.

But, this is what is done in bonsai. When one does the first styling of a tree, one determines what the nebari is, determines a front, sets in place the main branching, the secondary, and so on, and begins to define the shape and placement if the foliage on the tree, with what is currently there.

Which is what was done. This does not mean one would not at a later time want to grow other branches, or more branches, or more foliage, or even improve the tree in areas...

I just don't understand the term of "Instant"... the tree will continue to grow and be refined over years. The shape and look might not change a whole lot, and looks pretty good now and can possibly in the near future be shown. However, because I didn't spend years to get it to this state, I am getting the vibe, that it is not a good tree. The term "Instant", for me personally is being thrown around in a negative way by folks as though I am perhaps somehow cheating... which I don't get and probably will never get. The material takes as long as the material takes to develop. Some material takes a long time, others not so much. It's like I am being penalized for my material not taking decades to develop. When I have said numerous times, that the decades of development will be in the ramification of the tree. Eventually, over time the tree that I did, will end up being all flowers! And one will not even be able to see a leaf. This takes time, alot of time, and nothing instant about it.

In alot of ways, I think we are both saying the same things. I just differ with the terminology of the use of the word "Instant", because from where I stand folks are not using this term as a compliment. And are instead trying to degrade what has been done. I think it is a shame... cause the tree I did, as well as alot of the other trees done were good trees and have a future at being really good over time, and what was done was not only a great learning tool, but was no different in approach than what I do on my thousand dollar trees... but here I think is where alot of the problem lies. I nor anyone else spent a lot if money on them, so they couldn't possibly be good.

 

[A Random User]

Stacy,

he has been doing Bonsai for just about 35 years. There are many sizes around the backyard, say from 3 feet to 1".
I doubt he even thinks about finishing trees anymore, just the joy of growing designs
You do realise that the sageretia above is maybe 12 inches tall [ I will a measurement in the morning light.]
Not really a large tree.

He actually spent more time studying the prevention of rotting wood in sageretias, as large cuts [ 1/2 " + ] never heal.
Good Day
Anthony

It is very nice and he has done some great work! Tell him to keep at it! We just have different approaches to the way we each do bonsai, and what we appreciate in bonsai. That's all. If we didn't everyone would end up having the same tree, and shows might not be so fun to go to!

 

[coh]

I think the term "instant bonsai" has developed negative connotations because of the way some demos are done. We've probably all seen cases where trees (primarily very bendable trees, pines and junipers) have a single branch, usually near the top, that is twisted into all kinds of crazy positions in order to put foliage pads in a "nice" location. The final image may look good, may look like a standard well branched tree, but the underlying structure is not attractive or realistic.

Perhaps over time such trees can be developed, other branches grown or grafted, etc so that the underlying structure is more believable. Or, maybe that doesn't really matter, maybe the only thing that matters is how the tree looks from the front. I'm not saying it's good or bad - trees in nature, especially in harsh environments, do exhibit some pretty crazy structures. But, this could be where the idea that "instant bonsai" is a bad thing comes from.

The other possibility, again from demos - cases where too much work (too much foliage/branches removed) is done, or work is done in the wrong season, to make a tree that will get people to buy raffle tickets, without much regard to whether the tree will survive long term. I don't know how prevalent this is, maybe it's actually very rare, but from the time I've spent on forums this is the impression I've got whenever the discussion of "instant bonsai" comes up.

Chris

 

[A Random User]

I'm skeptical of this soil bit. I want to get my trees into bonsai soil because I believe it's the easiest medium to keep tree roots healthy in. I thought trees can grow pretty strongly in it if not better than nursery soil. Uh,oh... Soil debating... Sorry, wasn't thinking, good thread, good post.

On subject, I find myself to be a develop a bit a a time along the way kind of guy, takes me years of establishing and growing till I feel a trees ready for a full style generally.

It is fine to be skeptical, I do have some trees that seem to grow fast and put on alot of growth no matter what soil they are in, and yes if the tree isn't doing well in what ever soil it is in, then perhaps it should not be in there. I also, agree that it is often much easier to manage a tree in bonsai soil, because often one is more easily able to set up more of a routine with this type if soil, verses a typical nursery soil. Seeing that with regular nursery soil it often contains alot of organics, which make it harder to determine when and when not to water. And often this will vary more, with this type of soil.

With that said, when one is discussing growth, there are obviously differing areas of growth. Where I was referring to with the nursery soil or even just the ground, is the bulking up of the tree. This is why folks are always telling others to put it in the ground for years to grow in diameter... obvously to let the roots run, but also it is my own personsl observation, that material in nursery soil or in the ground, also just seems to grow better when one is discussing the growth of bulking up the tree. I personally feel the organics help to do this. However, if the soil is crappy it does not matter.

So, for me this is what I have found to be the case... that if I want to grow out a piece of material, I use this type if soil. When I begin to move forward into a different type of growth, ie. Foliage and ramification, this soil works, but I find not as good as a Bonsai type soil.
Other areas I have found to be the case as well, is after doing serious work on a tree, I find that they recover faster from the damage in a nursery type if soil.

Obviously, others will perhaps find this to not be the case, and their views may differ. Alot of this also, might be determined on their environment. If one lives in a rather harsh environment, being able to protect them more by let's say nor being in the ground is going to help. I also know that when I visited friends up in Philly, where they were at the dirt was more like clay, which might not be good for growing out certain types of trees.

The trick with any soil and yes, not to get into that debate, is just to find out what you see works best. Often you have to do tests and grow material side by side in differing soils to see the results for yourself. Thanks for the reply!

 

[wireme]

It is fine to be skeptical, I do have some trees that seem to grow fast and put on alot of growth no matter what soil they are in, and yes if the tree isn't doing well in what ever soil it is in, then perhaps it should not be in there. I also, agree that it is often much easier to manage a tree in bonsai soil, because often one is more easily able to set up more of a routine with this type if soil, verses a typical nursery soil. Seeing that with regular nursery soil it often contains alot of organics, which make it harder to determine when and when not to water. And often this will vary more, with this type of soil.

With that said, when one is discussing growth, there are obviously differing areas of growth. Where I was referring to with the nursery soil or even just the ground, is the bulking up of the tree. This is why folks are always telling others to put it in the ground for years to grow in diameter... obvously to let the roots run, but also it is my own personsl observation, that material in nursery soil or in the ground, also just seems to grow better when one is discussing the growth of bulking up the tree. I personally feel the organics help to do this. However, if the soil is crappy it does not matter.

So, for me this is what I have found to be the case... that if I want to grow out a piece of material, I use this type if soil. When I begin to move forward into a different type of growth, ie. Foliage and ramification, this soil works, but I find not as good as a Bonsai type soil.
Other areas I have found to be the case as well, is after doing serious work on a tree, I find that they recover faster from the damage in a nursery type if soil.

Obviously, others will perhaps find this to not be the case, and their views may differ. Alot of this also, might be determined on their environment. If one lives in a rather harsh environment, being able to protect them more by let's say nor being in the ground is going to help. I also know that when I visited friends up in Philly, where they were at the dirt was more like clay, which might not be good for growing out certain types of trees.

The trick with any soil and yes, not to get into that debate, is just to find out what you see works best. Often you have to do tests and grow material side by side in differing soils to see the results for yourself. Thanks for the reply!

Thanks for yours, truthfully, I've never really grown much in anything other than aggregate of some sort, aside from the collected trees with dense rootballs and it's always a relief to get rid of that soil, less guesswork for watering.

I think it's great when a tree can be made to look good instantly and its good to see it being done with accessible cheaper material. Sometimes though I think expectations can be too high regarding timeframe. Here's a couple of mine, collected 2011 and 2012. I'm sure others could be farther along but I think I've more or less done the right thing by not trying to force an instant bonsai out of them.
Sometimes too I feel that the efforts and talents of growers who produce and prepare trees ready for instant styling are undervalued and the styler gets the limelight credit. Not directed at you obviously, just in general I admire those who grow and establish well thought out stock without major flaws.
The trees, good enough stuff but not quite ready to be an instant bonsai right?

 

[A Random User]

I think the term "instant bonsai" has developed negative connotations because of the way some demos are done. We've probably all seen cases where trees (primarily very bendable trees, pines and junipers) have a single branch, usually near the top, that is twisted into all kinds of crazy positions in order to put foliage pads in a "nice" location. The final image may look good, may look like a standard well branched tree, but the underlying structure is not attractive or realistic.

Perhaps over time such trees can be developed, other branches grown or grafted, etc so that the underlying structure is more believable. Or, maybe that doesn't really matter, maybe the only thing that matters is how the tree looks from the front. I'm not saying it's good or bad - trees in nature, especially in harsh environments, do exhibit some pretty crazy structures. But, this could be where the idea that "instant bonsai" is a bad thing comes from.

The other possibility, again from demos - cases where too much work (too much foliage/branches removed) is done, or work is done in the wrong season, to make a tree that will get people to buy raffle tickets, without much regard to whether the tree will survive long term. I don't know how prevalent this is, maybe it's actually very rare, but from the time I've spent on forums this is the impression I've got whenever the discussion of "instant bonsai" comes up.

Chris

Thanks for the post, as well a the subject you brought up, I agree! And was actually hoping someone would being this part of the discussion up... cause I to feel that this is where alot of the feelings arise from.

I too have seen what you and alot of the others have seen, and feel alot of the same way that perhaps some if the others feel. And for me the sad part, is that I feel , actually I should say I know, because this is what happened to me in my earlier days if doing bonsai... that it teaches one that this is how one is suppose to do bonsai. To twist everything and bend back n forth a branch to get it in a spot that looks good. And this is what I did for a long time.... until one day, it kinda clicked.

For me one of the things I see personally happening alot especially down here with tropicals is that the first thing often one does is remove all the foliage to make it easier to wire. Now, I am not condoning someone doing this, there are some good advantages to do this. However, it is my own personal experience, that one can easily wire with the foliage on and the recovery time of the tree will be that much faster allowing for more work in a shorter amount of time. If one is trying to promote back budding, fine but this does not need to be done in order to wire. And here again has become taught the way to do things.

One of the things I have learned however, through doing things the wrong way at first, is that it actually helped me learn in alot of ways... so, for me there was a positive side to it.

First and for most I learned how to wire, and bend. And how to do drastic bends. It also helped me to better understand how a tree will grow. And lastly it taught me how to better design a tree out of a piece of material so as to not have to do this.

Still to this day, however, I will wire a branch out like I want it, then perhaps bend the branch straight down after a node and after a short distance will return a branch back out. A trick that will allow me to continue the growth of the branch out, do as to not impede it moving forward, thus allowing me to continue increasing the size of the branch while at the same time also allowing for one to begin to concentrate some of the branches energy into the area where I will eventually cut back to. At just at the bend down. If a tree wants to grow up, this point will naturally begin to develop through this process, seeing it is the last point on the branch before bending down. And there are other things I have learned like this as well.

Bending of branches back n forth, has also allowed me to envision designs for a tree that I would of never thought of if I had not done this. I have turned this knowledge into a positive, by better examining the material before I begin. Trying to figure out a way that I can best make the best design, setting up the future of the tree, and at the same time making a presentable tree, seeing that this is the goal of doing all the bends, yet without having to do them. And when I do the is an actual reason behind, other than cosmetic.

I have learned, that it is actually possible to do both sometimes... on the other side of the coin I have seen as I hinted before where folks have reduced a piece of material down to nothing, to show what most would consider the common approach to doing bonsai and growing the tree out. Which is fine, but sometimes I think that this didn't need to be done either.

I think that this is what Walter was saying on some of critiques of the competition trees, where he said that he felt that there was some very good meat on the bones that were already there to work with and one didn't need to remove so much, only to have to grow out new stuff.

So, for me personally, I think there is often a middle ground. Where yes one does not always have to reduce a tree back to nothing, because this is what we are taught to do. And yes, one should not, bend branches all over the place... but instead should perhaps take a step back and re examine the tree... and look for how one can build a tree with what is there, but yet at the same time, understand where one will be taking it in the future and thus design accordingly as well.

Some material just does not give you the options and all one can do is just cut back. And unless one is given this type of a material to do a demo on... this perhaps should be a major consideration in determining what makes a good piece of stock when one is forking over dough. Especially, when the whole reasoning behind forking out dough usually is that you are paying for the material to be further along so you don't have to wait. This is of course not true if one is buying a piece of material for a feature or character, however it still helps if the material is further along.
Thanks!

 

[GrimLore]

I agree with that statement but myself was referring to "instant Bonsai" being acquired and ready for "show" after a quick style and potting - two different takes on it.

I understand in a way what you say about ramification but I also see in the past you also have posted some darn nice "artsy" plants with no ramification and yes I said darn nice. That does not matter in some cases as when you "create" a weeper with unusual stock not ordinarily seen as weeping. I also one time noticed you gauged an opinion on "Maple Groupies" and the "best of the best require ramification" although you belittled people doing a few "clips" or something similar... So I am certain I knew what you meant as you understand what applies and does not to each person/plant and level they are at although you made a broad statement that can be and is like "wtf" to a lot of people...

No argument intended, I enjoy a good discussion as well.

Grimmy

Please clarify - I am a very interested in your response, not asking you to defend yourself and just trying to understand your stance...

Thank you in advance

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

Thanks for yours, truthfully, I've never really grown much in anything other than aggregate of some sort, aside from the collected trees with dense rootballs and it's always a relief to get rid of that soil, less guesswork for watering.

I think it's great when a tree can be made to look good instantly and its good to see it being done with accessible cheaper material. Sometimes though I think expectations can be too high regarding timeframe. Here's a couple of mine, collected 2011 and 2012. I'm sure others could be farther along but I think I've more or less done the right thing by not trying to force an instant bonsai out of them.
Sometimes too I feel that the efforts and talents of growers who produce and prepare trees ready for instant styling are undervalued and the styler gets the limelight credit. Not directed at you obviously, just in general I admire those who grow and establish well thought out stock without major flaws.
The trees, good enough stuff but not quite ready to be an instant bonsai right? View attachment 75444 View attachment 75445

Nice tree! This was what I was discussing in my initial post... you have a collected tree that someone has collected for the trunk and it's features. Unless one just wants to grow the trunk out and make it bigger, the trunk is already the size that is needed, has the character that is needed and other than possible refinement is finished.

Where your tree is lacking is in the foliage and possible branch department. This is not to say it is bad, or that one cannot build a tree with what is there. But the more branches and foliage, the more options available to creating a design within the tree. Where the problem lies is that more than likely the tree does not yet have enough feeder roots to support further growth. Remember, they go hand in hand...

So, the type of soil you have it in appears to be the exact soil that it should be in. You at this stage are not concerned about putting bulk on the trunk. You are concerned about establishing not establishing bigger growth, but more amounts of growth spread throughout the tree. Faster draining soil, that will be able to breathe, will help you do this. So, you are right where you want to be.

 

[A Random User]

Please clarify - I am a very interested in your response, not asking you to defend yourself and just trying to understand your stance...

Thank you in advance

Grimmy

Would be more than happy to explain...

Let me first start with the "Maple Groupies" comment, since this might be the part that you probably the most interested in...

This here was more of a joke and was in tented as so... See for those of us that either don't prefer to work on them, don't have any interest in doing so, or perhaps don't want spend the effort and time invested in making sure they don't shrivel up under our sun (with the exception being tridents) , We find ourselves in a situation where every thread, or every other thread posted here at the Nut is either a maple or Mugo pine. It's like nothing else exists, and one can only make a good tree out of those sometimes.
Which would be why I posted my 11 tree ficus composition in the advanced category, Cause it gets slightly more views then the tropicals. Did consider putting it in the Maple and Mogo Pine Forum though.

Now, with that said, I understand that a good majority of the folks are from a region that these are very plentiful. So, I get it, but sometimes it's just for the rest of us like "Ok", that's nice, but there are other types of trees out there... that take just as much work to create, and sometimes more to even get close to a similar state, yet the replies aren't the "that's amazing" type that are recieved with a maple with no ramification, but are instead just the as you have put it, "have no ramification" comments...
Just the way it is... no one's fault really, but it does kinda suck sometimes. And often the only way to deal with something sucking is just to make a laugh of it!and I know for a couple of folks here, it did make them laugh, cause they too spend all the time working on a tree, the same amount or more as the individual doing the maple, take time to post up pics, and get no replies...

Now, as far as my personal trees, I have only posted I believe two of my nicer trees, here in the last couple of years. My buttonwood, that I changed the angle on and was told I was crazy for doing, and let us not forget the "J-Lo butt comment", and the juniper I did the large heavy channeled bend in. I do actually like the 11 tree composition as well, and believe it has potential. However, it has never for me been about showing off a nice tree here, but instead, more about showing a technique or procedure that I have done, and learned how to do. Cause this is what makes me proud! I still find myself in the "I want to learn", phase, my finished trees will come later, and will be better off because of it. I do think we have gone of subject though, and would love to hear anymore views or thought, opinions regarding it. Thanks!

 

[wireme]

I went out to the bench looking for an instant bonsai, something established and unworked, curious to see what I'd do differently if going for instant.
It became a very small spreading banyan style potentilla. Quick effort, I am doing other things tonight.

Some things I would cut off for a better instant image but will make for a better future I hope. The top I would not have bothered curving up, figure I can grow out something better, for instant it was the best I could come up with, I think I'll still replace it. Cleaning out the stuff lower left would be good but its used as a guy wire anchor point. Deadwood and cleaning should help.
A little bit heavier trimming and a bit more wire than I would have normally done, still feels a bit counterproductive to try working every last detail at this point. Was fun though, thanks for the motivation.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I have seen videos and blogs of someone taking an overgrown mess and creating a nice form from that mess.
I have seen folks use drills and chainsaws and all kinds of stuff to rough up the bark and create dead wood.
The tree has still maybe spent years growing out as a prebonsai or has been styled before and allowed to grow out.
After the instant bonsai is done it will still need dedicated care and future maintenance. Not only is nothing instant in this hobby but it's never even finished.
But you can still create beautiful bonsai in fast way.
The tree may or may not die.

 

[michaelj]

I appreciate the responses. It's easy to let discussions like this turn nasty and have people spread butthurt in every direction. This thread went a little more like a real conversation might go, where people explain why they didn't mean to sound like others may have interpreted their remarks.

I probably won't, for now, at least, use the same words and phrases the way some other are using them, and I'm a little more chill and a little less ambitious than some in this hobby, but I get where you are coming from and it's a reasonable way to see things. I just still find the semantics a bit lacking. Aside from that, we're probably closer to being on the same page than I'd have thought when we began this thread.

 

[Ali Raza]

Nice.