If you've ever killed a tree, this might make you fell better

[JudyB]

I do agree that frequent repots can lead to coarser growth, I don't do it on my more refined trees, and certainly not to larch, or pines.
But for trees in the development stages, that I'm pushing growth on, and fertilizing heavily, I find that it's a way to keep them going strongly.
Hopefully it won't lead to any problems, I'll keep this in mind as I go forward.

 

[Adair M]

The repotting I was referring to was for trees in questionable soil, or showing signs of illness that could be caused by poor soil. I was not suggesting that all trees should be repotted every year.

Trees in good soil can go several years between repots. Trees in poor soil should be repotted at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Poink88]

The different colors of wood on the inside are the heartwood and the sapwood.

You can read all about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood#Heartwood_and_sapwood

Basically, as new layers of wood form on the outside of a tree they die the following year and become the light colored sapwood. Even though it is technically dead it is still active in sap transport. After many years, the sapwood hardens and becomes the darker heartwood. Heartwood does not transport water it is biologically dead and serves only as a skeleton to hold up the tree.

What you posted is true BUT not the case with Brian's tree color. Heartwood normally follows a particular "age" ring...not like this. I am leaning more towards Sawgrass' experience. It is like having a veggie frozen then thawed...it looks different and damaged.

 

[Dav4]

What you posted is true BUT not the case with Brian's tree color. Heartwood normally follows a particular "age" ring...not like this. I am leaning more towards Sawgrass' experience. It is like having a veggie frozen then thawed...it looks different and damaged.

I agree the picture shows some kind of pathology, but I have my doubts about freeze damage, though, as JWP are super cold hardy and rated at USDA zone 4. Being mountain trees, they're probably exposed to freezing temps even during their brief growing season. I'm thinking some sort of root pathogen that extended up the trunk is the source of the discoloration. I suppose Brian could take the section to the local Ag county extension office and talk to an agent there.

 

[wireme]

The photo show that initially the wound was covered by callous tissue and grew with included bark for the first 5 or 10 yrs. This leaves an entry point for heartwood rot pathogens to enter the trunk. Eventually the cambium layer fused again but there still is a verticle crack in the bark that can be seen. This kind of situation can lead to a kind of race between the healthy sapwood and infected heartwood. If the healthy sapwood stays ahead the tree can be fine.

Keep in mind this is from memory from a book browsed through a long time ago. You might want to do a google search for included bark in tree wounds or something similar. I think it's worth investigating this x-section it might tell you that a verticle crack in the bark like that is something to be avoided in future purchases.

mp

 

[wireme]

I'll add that if you were to take more x-sections I would not be suprised to find cracking in the wood from the outside of the fold in the heart shape to the center. You can see that everytime a new growth layer is added to this kind of shape it will exert force towards splitting the trunk.

Hope it helps.

mp

 

[Poink88]

At the base, the scion seemed to show growth around the stock creating a heart-shape, most interesting. How many rings? I counted 47 clearly, +10 or so that were too close together at the center and outside.

I'll add that if you were to take more x-sections I would not be suprised to find cracking in the wood from the outside of the fold in the heart shape to the center. You can see that everytime a new growth layer is added to this kind of shape it will exert force towards splitting the trunk.

From what I can see...one side of the tree (half) died (dark center part). The right side kept growing and slowly enveloped the dead side. I would hazard to guess that the black tail portion at the fold is included bark sandwiched between the two growing sides preventing a complete fusion until they got close enough and not have time to build bark so they eventually fused (clear as mud?).

I still don't know what caused the wet like color...would be interested if Brian finds out.

 

[lordy]

The repotting I was referring to was for trees in questionable soil, or showing signs of illness that could be caused by poor soil.

I too subscribe to the practice of emergency repotting even when not the best season. I figure that if I dont, the tree will continue to decline and die anyway, so it is a better alternative than that. And I honestly dont recall ever losing a tree due to repotting out of season when the tree was in decline. There was always something wrong in the root system that the new soil fixed. Not enough air mostly.

 

[johng]

Sorry about the loss Brian...very, very frustrating...did you ask Kathy about it?

I agree the picture shows some kind of pathology, but I have my doubts about freeze damage, though, as JWP are super cold hardy and rated at USDA zone 4. Being mountain trees, they're probably exposed to freezing temps even during their brief growing season. I'm thinking some sort of root pathogen that extended up the trunk is the source of the discoloration. I suppose Brian could take the section to the local Ag county extension office and talk to an agent there.

I am sure you realize this but these are JBP roots not JWP roots...but as you suggest, cold is still probably not the issue but I believe JBP are more sensitive to the cold....But where Brian lives, regardless of the species, cold shouldn't have been a factor.

I actually did my first serious repotting this Spring on my large JWP...fingers crossed...I have always felt that I was tempting fate by trying to grow this species in my climate...
Then again, if you look at latitudes, my latitude is just slightly south of Shikoku Island where there are many commercial producers of JWP for bonsai. Takamatsu and Mr. Iwasaki's garden(famous for growing 1 million JWP for bonsai) are on the same latitude as Charlotte, NC (about 100 miles north of me)so it seems that they should be ok. All that said, I have never thought that any of my white pines display the vigor and health that they should.


you know if all this were easy...good trees wouldn't mean near as much to us

John

 

[Dav4]

Sorry about the loss Brian...very, very frustrating...did you ask Kathy about it?




I am sure you realize this but these are JBP roots not JWP roots...but as you suggest, cold is still probably not the issue but I believe JBP are more sensitive to the cold....But where Brian lives, regardless of the species, cold shouldn't have been a factor.

Ah, my mistake...I thought the cross section with the discolored wood was taken above the graft. You're right, of course, that JBP are less cold tolerant then JWP, but as you said, cold is unlikely to be a factor in AL...back in MA, I've had my own JBP deal with sub zero temps mid winter and come out of dormancy without a hitch. I still suspect something else weakened the tree. It is really frustrating not knowing the reason certain species don't do well in certain regions, when they seem to do well in others that appear similar. I'm currently watching a collected Ponderosa pine weaken slowly over the last 4 years it has been here in GA despite doing "everything right", except sending it back to where it was collected...frustrating.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Sorry about the loss Brian...very, very frustrating...did you ask Kathy about it?

I am sure you realize this but these are JBP roots not JWP roots...but as you suggest, cold is still probably not the issue but I believe JBP are more sensitive to the cold....But where Brian lives, regardless of the species, cold shouldn't have been a factor.

I actually did my first serious repotting this Spring on my large JWP...fingers crossed...I have always felt that I was tempting fate by trying to grow this species in my climate...
Then again, if you look at latitudes, my latitude is just slightly south of Shikoku Island where there are many commercial producers of JWP for bonsai. Takamatsu and Mr. Iwasaki's garden(famous for growing 1 million JWP for bonsai) are on the same latitude as Charlotte, NC (about 100 miles north of me)so it seems that they should be ok. All that said, I have never thought that any of my white pines display the vigor and health that they should.

you know if all this were easy...good trees wouldn't mean near as much to us

John

Pretty sure it wasn't weather-related. Good luck with yours John....I seem to remember justifying my second 5NP purchase just about like that, I really hope yours does better!

 

[MACH5]

Sorry about your loss Brian. A beautiful tree indeed and a real heartbreaker! Thanks for sharing this "not so pretty" side of bonsai. Without it we cannot go forward.

 

[Adair M]

I have heard that sometimes the graft will "fail" as the tree gets older due to the difference of the growth rate of JWP vs JBP. I have no personal experience with this but, I've heard it can happen.

If this was the case here, the tree was doomed, and nothing Brian could have done would have saved it.

 

[Vance Wood]

Oh, my! That's a real shame, Brian, that one was a beauty. I don't blame you for buying it, it was quite seductive!

I've been having similiar issues with a much smaller (and less expensive) JWP purchased from probably the same place yours came from. I did a total repot this spring, and I was surprised at how poorly they had potted it. My issues began late last summer, when it suddenly dropped 1/2 it's foliage all over the tree. I lost several small branches, but none of the major ones. I'm hoping the repot saves it. New needles are beginning to emerge.

I agree with your "Grow what grows in your area" observation. That's why I favor JBP over JWP. To that end, I notice you are working with an Ezo Spruce. Any heat issues with it? Larry Jackel and I worked a yamadori Colorado Blue Spruce last weekend. It's a cute little thing, but I worry about our summer...

Colorado Blue Spruce does fine our Michigan winters and summers. Sometimes we get temps in the triple digets and extended periods in the 90's, and they do fine here.

 

[Vance Wood]

Sorry you lost such a beautiful and costly tree. I do not have a great deal of experience with JWP, if some sort of fungus infection does not get them something goes wrong with the soil. I suspect you had both.

 

[MidMichBonsai]

I have heard that sometimes the graft will "fail" as the tree gets older due to the difference of the growth rate of JWP vs JBP. I have no personal experience with this but, I've heard it can happen.

If this was the case here, the tree was doomed, and nothing Brian could have done would have saved it.

This can definitely be true because the JBP are a double-flush species and the JWP are single. I seem to remember Ryan Neil saying something in a lecture on pines that the graft will often work for a while, but eventually is doomed to fail because of the different rates of growth. It may take 10 years but eventually the graft will separate and the tree will die.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[sam]

hello brian

as a small scale importer of foreign material, I"ve walked in your shoes a number of times. losses are part of reality when buying trees-whether they be foreign or domestic. I try to understand the risks and be prepared to accept the worst. no guts, no glory.

best wishes, sam

 

[Tink32]

This can definitely be true because the JBP are a double-flush species and the JWP are single. I seem to remember Ryan Neil saying something in a lecture on pines that the graft will often work for a while, but eventually is doomed to fail because of the different rates of growth. It may take 10 years but eventually the graft will separate and the tree will die.

Can anyone confirm?

I remember Ryan talking about this on a youtube video, he said the top basically pushes itself off the graft after about 10 years. I believe its the videos of him working on a ponderosa pine for the midwest bonsai society

 

[iant]

Yes I remember a Ryan Neil video on JWP where he was referring to grafted JWP and said that they can fail at some point at the graft joint. But 10 years is too soon... I think he was referring to pines a few decades out from graft and that you had to be very careful in the handling of them as you didn't want to put much stress against the graft. It's not something I'd worry much about. I think the main issues with grafts are aesthetic as most of us won't keep a tree long enough to see the graft fail.
Ian

 

[Vance Wood]

Yes I remember a Ryan Neil video on JWP where he was referring to grafted JWP and said that they can fail at some point at the graft joint. But 10 years is too soon... I think he was referring to pines a few decades out from graft and that you had to be very careful in the handling of them as you didn't want to put much stress against the graft. It's not something I'd worry much about. I think the main issues with grafts are aesthetic as most of us won't keep a tree long enough to see the graft fail.
Ian

This observation begs a question: If we assume that the statement It's not something I'd worry much about. I think the main issues with grafts are aesthetic as most of us won't keep a tree long enough to see the graft fail. Why are some of us compelled to lay down outrageous sums of money to purchase one of these miracles of horticultural prestidigitation in the first place understanding that it is likely to self distruct in ten years?

A high percentage of trees in my collection have been in my possession in excess of twenty-years. The suggestion that a tree I spent big money for is going to fail in ten years is not an attractive incentive for me to add the tree to my colletion.