Got some new Trees! (lots of pics and questions)

[cooldaddyfunk286]

We will probably set up another smaller tent so I can keep tropical conditions in one and try to replicate winter dormancy in the other, which is possible due to the colder placement of the grow rooms. I can achieve probably 40s for winter dormancy trees. Thanks for the welcome and advice!

 

[timetravel_0]

Things went bad quick for you.

Here's what I think.

The "regulars" here get pissed when people deviate from Japanese traditions or techniques. Don't tell them that the Chinese originated the art form.

You're also new, which means they know more about horticulture than you do.

You're not showing evidence of heeding their every word, and following it like the gospel. That's another strike.

Then finally, you're not female, which would automatically give you every pass in the world.

Here's the bad side to this hobby. Many of the "experienced" are a-holes. You MUST do it their way, use their soil, or heed the all-knowing word of the master they stroke the ego of with thousands of dollars in hand.

It looks and sounds like you know your horticulture. That probably comes from your experience with your not tomatoes related business. It also sounds like you're more than capable to learn any little specific details that pertain to bonsai art specifically.

It also looks like you're learning in exactly the best way possible- hands on experience. Anyone who argues against that point has no idea what they're talking about when it comes to instruction.

They're pissed that you're forging your own road and learning on your own, instead of stroking their ego. Keep on keepin' on. You'll learn, and much faster than just reading the spoutings of blowhards.

Ignore Cadillactaste. She chastised you for the EXACT same thing she has done in other threads- showcased items and materials related to a commercial business. I don't think either of you are trying to promote business, but fair play is fair play. She runs around here without anyone saying anything due to the leg-humping phenomenon. Any male member that was new within a year making these kinds of posts, and posting the number of threads she does would be run out of town. It's already happened with several members within the last couple months. When called on this, she added me to the ignore list- must have hit close to home.

I think that you're on the right track. Maybe you'll succeed, maybe you'll fail. Heck, I don't know, I'm learning too! I do know that you are learning in a constructive manner, which is the best way. Don't worry about posting to prove any of them wrong, or to prove yourself right. In their minds, they'll always be right- so it's a waste of time for you otherwise.

Do bonsai to make you happy.

 

[timetravel_0]

Just to throw a little botany into the mix, it looks like the not tomatoes plants that your grow tent is commonly used for were originally found in the mountainous regions on the north western side of the Himalayas. That habitat should be very similar to those found where Japanese Maples, Junipers, and Chinese Elms come from.

Which means there's no realistic reason that the grow tent is detrimental to your trees at this point in time.

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

Thanks alot. And I hadnt a clue I was talking to women, so I wasnt trying to do any leg humping. I was trying to be genuinely as cool as possible about it. And cmon man I live in upstate NY not michi or Colorado haha. We do plenty for every type of plant grower, just not bonsai, its not big in my area. And my growing background goes waay beyond just "whats normally grown in those tents" ya smartasses. I have plently of people REALLY growin those peppers and tomatoes. Farmers markets are big but thats not new. Thanks for the pat on the back buddy.

Ill grow on em...I always do lol. Just like I said fumble my way into the forum snot ranks and hit the ground hard at first but then i coast along and wave to everyone! Thanks again.

 

[sorce]

People, or better, spambots, trying to sell stuff, start threads about Nike shoes, or US currency, or other shit like that.

ANYONE WHO THINKS (after actually thinking about it) CDF OR CADDILACTASTE or anyone here is trying to sell something. (Edited for content). Ok thats (was) harsh, but, if you actually THINK about it, you will realize they aren't trying to sell shit, and we can all get back to bonsai.

Besides, if they are on a sales pitch, its a Moron quest, they will have failed and left. But they are still here so......

Its obvious they are not.

I remember a dead....redbud, oak, several elms, Forsythia, and well, some I cant remember, that I had indoors.

Do you remember when you couldnt ride a bike?
Maybe not, but you f'in can now cant you! And you don't fall on purpose now do you?

Point is. We all learn. Cool daddy will too. Give em a chance. His outdoor trees will die indoors. So what are you buying? Nothing. Get it? Not a sales pitch.

cool daddy.

You can grow excellent tropicals inside that rig. Stick to it. Your outdoor trees will get diseases (like you somewhat said) and detriment the others.

I understand where you are. Most importantly how "work mode" (fb posts) transfers to other endeavors. It is human.

However, it is in your best interest to heed advice given by these advanced folks.

In their defense, they are not as asshole as Time put it.

We all must remember how a lot of expression is lost in this text. The internet. This form of communication is one where we all must CONSCIOUSLY EVOLVE. OR THE HUMAN RACE IS DOOMED.

GOOD RIDDENS.

Sorce

Mike none of this was directed at you.

I hope we all realize what is REALLY GOING ON HERE. Miscommunication.

Love. Peace. And not tomatoes!

 

[sorce]

Cdf.

After going back over the whole thread.

You never did thank, or respond, in any way that said you were actually reading responses.

Until defending yourself against sales accusations.

We are here for you sincerely, if you are not sincere, see above on Moron Quest.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Whats this for?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I think people are being overly sensitive / aggressive.

That light tent is great environment for growing tropicals / semi-tropicals indoors (depending on the bulb). Looks like he has a vented metal halide in there, which could be more than enough intensity to get great results... plus nice heat and humidity control. Watch the soil mix - you want it to be open and free-draining, particularly indoors. You might also consider a small fan (like PC fan) to keep some air moving in there.

As far as the conifers go... you might even be able to get away with junipers in this setup. I don't know about the pines. Five needles pines and those that need a hard cold dormancy, no way. Not sure about tropical pines or JBP. Again - we're talking about a setup where you have a mirrored light tent with a growth-spectrum bulb throwing out 10k+ lumens. It's not like he is trying to keep a juniper on his kitchen table.

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

thanks bonsainut ... I have constant air circulation going on due to negative pressure, I have a 6 inch inline fan, 400 cfm pulling the air out, and pulling fresh air from outside the tent in. Also cracking a Co2 tank in there to give them even more "fresh air" The bulb is 600w 7200k MH, 45,000 Lumens at 600w, and can be dimmed from 60% up to 110%...We have kept it on 60% just to not run up the power bill (not the only grow light we have set up!) ...so in reality they have only been growing at 300 something watts. I would be scared at the growth rate when cranking it to the full 600w. would be crazy.

Sorce, I can't believe you're still trying to take pot shots at me about being not "sincere" I can't even think how you'd still be saying this if you really read by big books up there. c'mon lighten up. Thanks for the POSITIVE people here, a very big help and I appreciate it. Even the not so positive comments are making me learn. Ill chalk it up to tough-love. hows that? lol

I hopped on here to show you guys the progress of the elms since we first got them less than 5 weeks ago. almost a month to the day, and the first week or so they were not in the tent...

Before and after...

BEFORE:

AFTER:

The pics do not do full justice as to the size difference.

Thanks for lookin everyone, can you see why I have been apprehensive with the Elms? And If I didn't answer anyone's first suggestions, it wasn't intentional. Im only on here while Im at work usually, so sometimes I get taken away from it, or haven't checked the boards in a bit. But now that I think, I'm pretty sure my whole thought about questioning the tent setup year round was kicked off by the first suggestion about the elms in this thread, and a few weeks before that, taking the advice from one of you guys on here to keep my Juni outside. (the bigger one at home). So again, I AM taking the advice, but Im also taking a hint from my Trees. I bet some beginners will have an outdoor bonsai growing inside for months and then read "It needs to be outside now" so they just mosey on out and put it outdoors, big shock, Tree takes a beating...and I would Imagine that can play into some unlucky beginnings. But really, what do I know.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

thanks bonsainut ... I have constant air circulation going on due to negative pressure, I have a 6 inch inline fan, 400 cfm pulling the air out, and pulling fresh air from outside the tent in. Also cracking a Co2 tank in there to give them even more "fresh air" The bulb is 600w 7200k MH, 45,000 Lumens at 600w, and can be dimmed from 60% up to 110%...We have kept it on 60% just to not run up the power bill (not the only grow light we have set up!) ...so in reality they have only been growing at 300 something watts. I would be scared at the growth rate when cranking it to the full 600w. would be crazy.

That is insane intensity. To be honest, I've never heard of anyone running anything near that intense for bonsai indoors. I assumed you had a 175 or 250 watt bulb. 600 is crazy. You might as well be growing corals

With this setup, you should have no problems with junipers, cedars, yews, firs, cypresses, and all non-needle conifers, as long as they don't require a hard cold snap. I would be interested to see how you did with a Japanese Black Pine or a Mugo Pine. Pines are the most challenging, from a light perspective, and two-needle pines typically need the most light. This setup SHOULD be more than enough light (at least looking at the numbers) so I would be interested to see how you did. You would want the pines to be on the highest shelf, with other conifers below them, and your tropicals below that.

Do you have an electronic timer on this setup that allows you to adjust photoperiod to a certain latitude? I.e. set the photoperiod to Florida or Southern California? My black pines never go completely dormant, though they do definitely do through seasons and "rest" in the Winter. I've seen some new light controllers that have out-of-control feature sets - including WiFi connectivity and the ability to set up lighting profiles on your PC/laptop.

 

[sorce]

I'm totally with you Jason.

Excellent growth!

Back to it!

With growth that would make Floridians jealous, I'd love to see some good tropical material in there.

You may be able to do some other things, but switching from in and out for dormancy will probly be a pain, and will likely be too much to worry about when you have an excellent place to grow wicked tropicals.

To me its not worth the space!

Looking forward to another update! It wouldn't hurt to get the same angles and sizes to really show the kind of growth you are getting.

Thanks!

Sorce

 

[coh]

Not a fine showing here by a number of bnut regulars.

I haven't read every post and don't intend to. But, I have to comment on the fallacy that I continue to see repeated in various threads...which concerns growing junipers indoors, and their supposed requirement for a cold dormant period.

A few weeks ago, the one and only Jack Wikle was in Rochester and did a presentation for our club. I don't know if any of you have had the chance to see one of his talks, but he brings in a lot of the small trees that he grows indoors under lights. One of them was a juniper that he's been growing indoors, under lights, with no cold dormant period (and no time outside at all), for....are you ready... 34 years. Yes, 34 years. I held that tree in my hand. It's actually the same tree that was shown in the article he wrote for the Brooklyn Botanical Garden book on growing bonsai indoors, and that was published 20 something years ago (I think, some of those dates are fuzzy).

Other species he's had long term success with include true cypress (such as mendocino cypress), pyracantha, cotoneaster, and boxwood, in addition to tropicals. BTW, the 34 year juniper was a procumbens. I didn't have a chance to ask if he's used other types of junipers.

He has not had success with pines or maples. Those seem to require a cold dormant period. He said they'd survive for a few years but gradually weaken.

His trees appeared extremely healthy, very dark green (I wish my trees looked like that). Part of his success, I believe, is that he grows very small trees and keeps them very close to the fluorescent lights. Oh, that's right...all he uses is standard cool fluorescent bulbs, no metal halides, no LEDs, no fancy grow bulbs.

Anyway...cooldaddy, welcome to the forum. Let us know how your trees do.

Chris

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

THAAANK you guys.

now that we are past the BS, we can get to it.

That is insane intensity. To be honest, I've never heard of anyone running anything near that intense for bonsai indoors. I assumed you had a 175 or 250 watt bulb. 600 is crazy. You might as well be growing corals

With this setup, you should have no problems with junipers, cedars, yews, firs, cypresses, and all non-needle conifers, as long as they don't require a hard cold snap. I would be interested to see how you did with a Japanese Black Pine or a Mugo Pine. Pines are the most challenging, from a light perspective, and two-needle pines typically need the most light. This setup SHOULD be more than enough light (at least looking at the numbers) so I would be interested to see how you did. You would want the pines to be on the highest shelf, with other conifers below them, and your tropicals below that.

Do you have an electronic timer on this setup that allows you to adjust photoperiod to a certain latitude? I.e. set the photoperiod to Florida or Southern California? My black pines never go completely dormant, though they do definitely do through seasons and "rest" in the Winter. I've seen some new light controllers that have out-of-control feature sets - including WiFi connectivity and the ability to set up lighting profiles on your PC/laptop.

Most definitely have a few digital timers controlling this set up. All I want to is add a few 6 inch clip on oscillating fans to keep some air movement around the trees, like a light breeze, keep em swayin alittle. I can dial this setup from sunny southern florida, to Cali and back again! Yes, the indoor growing industry has gotten INSANE, you are exactly right...controllers that will control everything from environment of your room, in every aspect, control 8-16 HID lights simultaneously, they sync with your smart phone and can be controlled from anywhere. its insane...even down to nutrient dosing and PH adjustment. Totally insane.

So I have a Dwarf Mugo, I was actually worried it wouldnt grow any bigger, but I have been proven wrong, I pinched back some of the buds to try and coax the direction of the mini tree, and its starting to take off. nice and healthy.

I was thinking, maybe I should just throw this Mugo, my White Sprue, and mini Nana out on my back deck at home w the other 2 junis. they are loving life. Ill post some pics I took of those alittle later...but the 2 junis in my backyard have been out there for maybe 2 months already and never saw any indoor growing. Im just worried about shocking the pine and spruce that has gotten alittle used to the indoor summertime conditions I have given them. What do you guys suggest? maybe make a slow acclimation from indoors to out?

What conditions do you evergreen pros this would be acceptable as "dormancy" conditions...I was planning on putting the 2 bigger Junis I have had outside, in my shed for the coldest 3 months of the season. maybe I can put the pine and spruce straight into the shed to exp. dormancy. Could I do that now? or should I ease them from indoors onto my back deck, and then for the 3 coldest months, put the 2 junis the pine and the spruce all in the shed? (unheated, but with windows) Thanks so much BN. P.S. We dont run it at 600W! we have it running at 60% of that.

also to the comments about how pricey and overboard this setup seems, all the equipment was comped to us by the companies to display in our shop, and thats just what we are doin! c'mon...you all would utilize this same setup if it fell in your lap, atleast for the real winter zones anyway!

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

Not a fine showing here by a number of bnut regulars.

I haven't read every post and don't intend to. But, I have to comment on the fallacy that I continue to see repeated in various threads...which concerns growing junipers indoors, and their supposed requirement for a cold dormant period.

A few weeks ago, the one and only Jack Wikle was in Rochester and did a presentation for our club. I don't know if any of you have had the chance to see one of his talks, but he brings in a lot of the small trees that he grows indoors under lights. One of them was a juniper that he's been growing indoors, under lights, with no cold dormant period (and no time outside at all), for....are you ready... 34 years. Yes, 34 years. I held that tree in my hand. It's actually the same tree that was shown in the article he wrote for the Brooklyn Botanical Garden book on growing bonsai indoors, and that was published 20 something years ago (I think, some of those dates are fuzzy).

Other species he's had long term success with include true cypress (such as mendocino cypress), pyracantha, cotoneaster, and boxwood, in addition to tropicals. BTW, the 34 year juniper was a procumbens. I didn't have a chance to ask if he's used other types of junipers.

He has not had success with pines or maples. Those seem to require a cold dormant period. He said they'd survive for a few years but gradually weaken.

His trees appeared extremely healthy, very dark green (I wish my trees looked like that). Part of his success, I believe, is that he grows very small trees and keeps them very close to the fluorescent lights. Oh, that's right...all he uses is standard cool fluorescent bulbs, no metal halides, no LEDs, no fancy grow bulbs.

Anyway...cooldaddy, welcome to the forum. Let us know how your trees do.

Chris

Chris...Thank you SO MUCH for the reassurance. The Junis I have a procumbens. I also have a Blue Tam juni that I did alittle work on, cleaned up for next year...and I have a Dwarf Mugo Pine and Hedgehog White Spruce.

The reason his trees were so Tiny is because he was limited with only using regular fluorescent tubes and keeping them so close to the tops, which isnt a bad idea, its just very limiting and will never give you taller or very lush growth, but they will grow and will sustain. LED lights keep everything VERY tight. all the internodal spacing will be a huge cluster. I may switch mine over to LED in the very far future to develop some real tight intricute pads. For now, the MH in in my oppinion the best posible light for these trees. especially since none are actively flowering and the 7200k spectrum is very "blue" and keeps the plants tighter structure than a standard 6000-6500K MH.

Chris, thank you again for helping me keep faith in my setup.

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

So out of my list of species I think I left one out, I might be wrong

...Australian Brush Cherry.

So Sorce and a few of you other folks...

which tropicals do you see doing best in the tent? obviously the Ficus', schefflera, jaboticoba (sp?) anything else? Dude, the problem is I truly love the non-tropicals. someone had mentioned I may be able to treat my Elms as "semi-tropical"? or someone mentioned they Had never lost leaves and grew Elms in a tropical condition?? Idk. The Elms are tellin me yessss. lol

Heres the Mugo I have been talking about. Its a DWARF Mugo, but like I said, it has been GROWING well since its been in the tent, that and the white spruce are the newest additions. This Mugo has insanely nice structure in my mind. just dont wanna mess anything up.

do you guys think I should re-pot (its needs it) and put outside? plant in the ground after acclimating to the cold outside, or maybe re-pot it, let it take to the new pot, and put it directly into my shed in my backyard? Im interested to hear more on just HOW HARD I need to dormancy a few of these trees.

Check out the first Nana, first Bonsai I got, and the Blue Tam after being tamed a bit...and also closer pics of the Mugo, which has grown and greened up since I bought it in Jersey maybe 2 weeks ago...

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

Sorry, heres the Mugo Pine...

PS...I REALLY love taking pics, in case you haven't noticed haha, so if there's ANYTHING you guys need a closer look at, please don't hesitate to ask. like I said, Im here w these trees all day everyday!

thanks for turnin this thread around for me guys. I will stay. good group of people here. thanks for the 2nd chance.

 

[timetravel_0]

Your pine looks pretty healthy... I had one, but the heat did it in, inside of 3 or 4 weeks.

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

Thanks Time...its actually grown alot over the last few days since I pinched a bunch of buds back. So from what I gather, I want to pinch the dominant most and or extra buds or candles? So to determine the direction of the growth?

Would it be worth making separate threads in each respective forum for each tree?

Thanks guys n gals.

-Jason-

 

[cooldaddyfunk286]

Anyone have any potential styling tips for that big wild sabina juniper in the outdoor pics up there? Are pads possible with that type of growth? Train 2-3 branches close to eachother in the same direction then trim out a pad? Im sorry for such noob questions. Just not much out on the sabina juni....10 bucks, could not pass that up! Maybe this is more suited for the Juniper thread section?

 

[sorce]

CDF.

The Tam....have a look at all of Sawgrasses Boxstore Juni Pixs. Great ideas.

Same goes. Cut off branches on inside of curves. Crotch branches.

Have a good look. It seems there is plenty to work with.

Leave all the low branches and anything close to the trunk.

Looks like a fun project.

Even with great growth....Id wait and find a good regiment of seasonal work for that Mugo. If you work pines out of season you lose a lot of time.

Sorce

P.s. we love looking at pics so have at it!