Glaucus Satsuki Azalea farm
- Thread starter Glaucus
- Start date
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Well done! You are making outstanding progress in your work Mark!
Cheers
DSD sends
Cheers
DSD sends
Glaucus
Omono
@Perplexody
You mean more like this:
That's a Kangiten flower, the seed parent. In fact, the seed for the previous seedling might have come from this specific flower.
Flowers that are even more like the hyperdrive pattern will show up once the seedling of the previous post gets more flowers. The stripiness is caused by the growth direction of the cell. The cells forming the petal tissue grew outward from the center of the flower towards the edges (while the flower is developing inside the flower bud) And every start of a stripe is a mutation event. All daughter cells of that mutation cell then cause the stripe to appear. And when a stripe terminates, that mutation event cell line dies out and gets crowded out by white neighboring cells. I think indeed elongating the stripes even more may be even more dramatic. I believe there are some satsuki that can do this. It has to do with the very specific way in which the cells in the petal grow
outward. If they grow one way, you get many dots, if they grow another way, you get longer more parallel stripes. And a third way you get mode wedge shaped sectors. Chihiro and Kaminoyamakirin come to mind.
You mean more like this:
That's a Kangiten flower, the seed parent. In fact, the seed for the previous seedling might have come from this specific flower.
Flowers that are even more like the hyperdrive pattern will show up once the seedling of the previous post gets more flowers. The stripiness is caused by the growth direction of the cell. The cells forming the petal tissue grew outward from the center of the flower towards the edges (while the flower is developing inside the flower bud) And every start of a stripe is a mutation event. All daughter cells of that mutation cell then cause the stripe to appear. And when a stripe terminates, that mutation event cell line dies out and gets crowded out by white neighboring cells. I think indeed elongating the stripes even more may be even more dramatic. I believe there are some satsuki that can do this. It has to do with the very specific way in which the cells in the petal grow
outward. If they grow one way, you get many dots, if they grow another way, you get longer more parallel stripes. And a third way you get mode wedge shaped sectors. Chihiro and Kaminoyamakirin come to mind.
Perplexody
Shohin
How freaking cool. I should've known that you'd have some flowers with a more intense effect
Glaucus
Omono
Yes, haha but please:
Star Trek: warp drive
Star Wars: hyper drive
I labeled that one with a metal tag and added it to my database. Once it has more flowers, it may show more patterns.
They should add the 'hyperdrive shibori' to the Japanese satsuki dictionary, though.
Glaucus
Omono
People sometimes ask about how to recognize different satsuki. And about how maruba satsuki and regular satsuki compare. Or what is the difference between narrow leaf northern varieties and round leaf southern varieties. This of course relates to the two different species the Japanese name 'satsuki'; Rhododendron indicum and Rhododendron eriocarpum (also called R.tamurae)
So for this, I took 4 seedlings from 4 different crosses. Since these are newly created hybrids, they do not fully represent the traditional kurume or satsuki, or nothern vs southern, or narrow vs round leaf.
Here the 4x4 pots of seedlings raised from seeds in 2020 and 2021:
Since the 4 seedlings in each group are quite similar, it is not obvious that there are 4 plants packed right next to each other. The variation is largest in the 4 plants top right, I would say.
This shows some of the variation in siblings. So in these crosses the siblings are very similar to each other while the 4 different crosses are distinct from each other.
The 4 crosses are,
Top left 'Kobai' x 'Wischi Waschi', which has round leaf satsuki blood from both parents. Gumpo is a great-grandparent through 'Wischi Waschi'. Kobai has round leaves itself, which it traces that back to the true maruba satsuki Izayoi, which is the great-great grandparent of these seedlings. So it is actually a bit surprising that all the seedlings have very rounded leaves. The presence of R.indicum genetics from the Kobai lineage is not really expressed. Also note the very compact and low growth habit.
Top right is 'Kangiten' x 'Čertoryje', so a satsuki crossbred with a European kurume. The plants are more upright. The colour of the leaves of these seedling is a little reddish because of more direct sun exposure. Growth on these is much more rapid and upright. Typical of what you get when you mix satsuki and kurume.
Bottom left is 'Hanatsuzuri' x 'Hekisui'. These seedlings have very dark green leaves, which might be a result of their repotting and health more than their genetics. They also all look very similar to each other. Growth is also rapid, leaves are larger and almost a bit diamond-shaped. So these seedlings are 100% satsuki (but not 100% r.indicum) and are typical of a modern satsuki with flower tower large flower genetics. Hanatsuzuri has genetics from R.indicum, R.eriocarpum and Belgian indica.
Bottom right is '[Alexander x Hekisui] x 'Kozan', this is very typical for a Kozan group satsuki. Slow growth, narrow leaves, smaller flowers. There is 12.5% R.nakaharae genetics, from 'Alexander' in the mix as well. But it is quite dilute already among these seedlings. You can see how different they are from the other pure satsuki just left of them that are 'Hanatsuzuri' x 'Hekisui'. Both also have Hekisui, so they are related in several different ways. Hanatsuzuri also has Kozan in the lineage.
There is very clear difference between the seedlings on the bottom, even though they are actually related in many ways. In both of them, R.indicum species genetics should be really high. So these are two contrasting examples of refined forms of cultivated R.indicum hybrids.
One can make this trait of large leaves and rapid growth, exhibited by the seedlings on the bottom right, even more prominent. For example, by cross-breeding two flower tower meika satsuki varieties among themselves. Especially when relying on the genetics of varieties like 'Asuka' (which Hanatsuzuri has) or 'Suisen'.
This also explains that if you already have a 90 year old fat 30 cm diameter trunk bonsai, you'd want the growth habit of Kozan. Not the more rapid coarse growth habit of a flower tower variety.
But if you want to grow a trunk from a cutting in a reasonable amount of time, you'd prefer the faster growing variety.
Another key detail, the seedlings top right and bottom left are actually from 2021, while the other two are 1 year older, from 2020. So the growth rate difference is clear in that respect as well.
Some closeups::
And packed closer together, with closeups:
So for this, I took 4 seedlings from 4 different crosses. Since these are newly created hybrids, they do not fully represent the traditional kurume or satsuki, or nothern vs southern, or narrow vs round leaf.
Here the 4x4 pots of seedlings raised from seeds in 2020 and 2021:
Since the 4 seedlings in each group are quite similar, it is not obvious that there are 4 plants packed right next to each other. The variation is largest in the 4 plants top right, I would say.
This shows some of the variation in siblings. So in these crosses the siblings are very similar to each other while the 4 different crosses are distinct from each other.
The 4 crosses are,
Top left 'Kobai' x 'Wischi Waschi', which has round leaf satsuki blood from both parents. Gumpo is a great-grandparent through 'Wischi Waschi'. Kobai has round leaves itself, which it traces that back to the true maruba satsuki Izayoi, which is the great-great grandparent of these seedlings. So it is actually a bit surprising that all the seedlings have very rounded leaves. The presence of R.indicum genetics from the Kobai lineage is not really expressed. Also note the very compact and low growth habit.
Top right is 'Kangiten' x 'Čertoryje', so a satsuki crossbred with a European kurume. The plants are more upright. The colour of the leaves of these seedling is a little reddish because of more direct sun exposure. Growth on these is much more rapid and upright. Typical of what you get when you mix satsuki and kurume.
Bottom left is 'Hanatsuzuri' x 'Hekisui'. These seedlings have very dark green leaves, which might be a result of their repotting and health more than their genetics. They also all look very similar to each other. Growth is also rapid, leaves are larger and almost a bit diamond-shaped. So these seedlings are 100% satsuki (but not 100% r.indicum) and are typical of a modern satsuki with flower tower large flower genetics. Hanatsuzuri has genetics from R.indicum, R.eriocarpum and Belgian indica.
Bottom right is '[Alexander x Hekisui] x 'Kozan', this is very typical for a Kozan group satsuki. Slow growth, narrow leaves, smaller flowers. There is 12.5% R.nakaharae genetics, from 'Alexander' in the mix as well. But it is quite dilute already among these seedlings. You can see how different they are from the other pure satsuki just left of them that are 'Hanatsuzuri' x 'Hekisui'. Both also have Hekisui, so they are related in several different ways. Hanatsuzuri also has Kozan in the lineage.
There is very clear difference between the seedlings on the bottom, even though they are actually related in many ways. In both of them, R.indicum species genetics should be really high. So these are two contrasting examples of refined forms of cultivated R.indicum hybrids.
One can make this trait of large leaves and rapid growth, exhibited by the seedlings on the bottom right, even more prominent. For example, by cross-breeding two flower tower meika satsuki varieties among themselves. Especially when relying on the genetics of varieties like 'Asuka' (which Hanatsuzuri has) or 'Suisen'.
This also explains that if you already have a 90 year old fat 30 cm diameter trunk bonsai, you'd want the growth habit of Kozan. Not the more rapid coarse growth habit of a flower tower variety.
But if you want to grow a trunk from a cutting in a reasonable amount of time, you'd prefer the faster growing variety.
Another key detail, the seedlings top right and bottom left are actually from 2021, while the other two are 1 year older, from 2020. So the growth rate difference is clear in that respect as well.
Some closeups::
And packed closer together, with closeups:
Last edited:
Do you have any signs to look out for that the seed pod is ready to harvest? From what I've read online, it seems to be in November and December when the seed pod turns brown and starts to crack a bit. Is this concordant with your experience? It's been just over six weeks since the majority of my crosses were made, and I can see that the ovule on one of them is quite big.
Glaucus
Omono
Seeds will be mature much earlier. Mid September is possible.
Yes, eventually the seed pods will die/dry/go brown. And then split open (though that may take a couple of more months after that).
In nature, it's fine if the seeds are spilled early spring the year after.
But as the plant shuts down for winter, the seeds need to be finished growing.
There is no good indication that I know of.
I think by now you may have seen that the seed pods are not growing larger, so that phase of development is finished. But I believe the seeds themselves are not ready yet.
So they are matured somewhere after the seed pods no longer enlarging, but before the plant showing signs of dormancy.
I haven't tried harvesting in mid or late August. So maybe I should try that. But I believe that's too early.
The weather of the summer may also matter. Temperatures have been low, which might mean this year they mature later.
After harvesting, you would still need to dry them for 2 to 3 weeks to see the seeds. If you take a pod and split it open while still green, it might or might not be mature enough. But you can't distinguish the seeds. Or at least, I haven't been able to.
Yes, eventually the seed pods will die/dry/go brown. And then split open (though that may take a couple of more months after that).
In nature, it's fine if the seeds are spilled early spring the year after.
But as the plant shuts down for winter, the seeds need to be finished growing.
There is no good indication that I know of.
I think by now you may have seen that the seed pods are not growing larger, so that phase of development is finished. But I believe the seeds themselves are not ready yet.
So they are matured somewhere after the seed pods no longer enlarging, but before the plant showing signs of dormancy.
I haven't tried harvesting in mid or late August. So maybe I should try that. But I believe that's too early.
The weather of the summer may also matter. Temperatures have been low, which might mean this year they mature later.
After harvesting, you would still need to dry them for 2 to 3 weeks to see the seeds. If you take a pod and split it open while still green, it might or might not be mature enough. But you can't distinguish the seeds. Or at least, I haven't been able to.
Glaucus
Omono
I checked some small pods on early flowering azaleas and these were ready. So I harvested a couple ones that I labeled from the early bloomers.
They don't look ready when you harvest them and split them while green. But after drying for a few days, they had seeds inside. So they must be good to go.
Can't comment on late bloomers like satsuki. Maybe I should check at least one to learn.
Glaucus
Omono
Pretty insane growth on a couple of seedlings, like this one:
I counted 22 new shoots of at least 10cm in length, 20cm on some.
This is a Hanatsuzuri x Hekisui seedling, sown in autumn 2021. It was in the original sowing tray until earlier this year.
This tray on the right (august 2022) might have been the tray they came from:
I eyeball peat (Florentus turfstrooisel), perlite, potting soil (Welkoop potgrond) about 33/33/33. I am now also adding pine, but I don't think these ones have pine chips yet.
Since only the potting soil has fertilizer, I am not since recently adding osmocote in each pot I am repotting.
I am not sure, but I believe these are some of the first where I actually added osmocote in the potting mix.
I am trying to explain for myself why these grow so strongly. I don't think it is pure genetics, though the Hanatsuzuri genes do seem to produce a more rapidly growing satsuki hybrid. The weather was cool and wet as well. Maybe a very rainy July with some 17C/63F days is actually good? Who would have guessed?
So I put in an order for 25kg of Osmocote and I'll be mixing it in always.
This seedling will flower for the first time in 2023, and it should then literally have like 20 to 40 flowers. From zero to that amount is crazy.
After they flower, I have to figure out what to do with these. I will keep the best looking ones. But then they need a repot into maybe a 12 to 15cm diameter round pot.
I could then be selling these. Maybe try to find a way to put them a bit towards a bonsai path.
Not sure I have space for 200 15cm pots, though.
If I can somehow consistently produce this quality plants, that would be great. As a hobbyist, just fooling around, these are absolutely top quality satsuki in terms of basic plant health.
So next goal is to produce this consistently, with my own variety, and then train them as bonsai raw material with some good artistic tendencies.
More of a group picture of the seedlings from this batch on the front (you can see the quality further in the back isn't the same):
I counted 22 new shoots of at least 10cm in length, 20cm on some.
This is a Hanatsuzuri x Hekisui seedling, sown in autumn 2021. It was in the original sowing tray until earlier this year.
This tray on the right (august 2022) might have been the tray they came from:
I eyeball peat (Florentus turfstrooisel), perlite, potting soil (Welkoop potgrond) about 33/33/33. I am now also adding pine, but I don't think these ones have pine chips yet.
Since only the potting soil has fertilizer, I am not since recently adding osmocote in each pot I am repotting.
I am not sure, but I believe these are some of the first where I actually added osmocote in the potting mix.
I am trying to explain for myself why these grow so strongly. I don't think it is pure genetics, though the Hanatsuzuri genes do seem to produce a more rapidly growing satsuki hybrid. The weather was cool and wet as well. Maybe a very rainy July with some 17C/63F days is actually good? Who would have guessed?
So I put in an order for 25kg of Osmocote and I'll be mixing it in always.
This seedling will flower for the first time in 2023, and it should then literally have like 20 to 40 flowers. From zero to that amount is crazy.
After they flower, I have to figure out what to do with these. I will keep the best looking ones. But then they need a repot into maybe a 12 to 15cm diameter round pot.
I could then be selling these. Maybe try to find a way to put them a bit towards a bonsai path.
Not sure I have space for 200 15cm pots, though.
If I can somehow consistently produce this quality plants, that would be great. As a hobbyist, just fooling around, these are absolutely top quality satsuki in terms of basic plant health.
So next goal is to produce this consistently, with my own variety, and then train them as bonsai raw material with some good artistic tendencies.
More of a group picture of the seedlings from this batch on the front (you can see the quality further in the back isn't the same):
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Nice!
It seems it’s high time for growing whips, bending, clip and grow and learning the other elements of styling these beasts.
You have so much stock to work with you’ll attain proficiency in just a few years!
cheers
DSD sends
It seems it’s high time for growing whips, bending, clip and grow and learning the other elements of styling these beasts.
You have so much stock to work with you’ll attain proficiency in just a few years!
cheers
DSD sends
If you ever do end up selling them, I would definitely be interested. Not sure on how the import process would work though since Brexit, unless all you need is a photo sanitary certificate. I did try ordering from BonsaiPlaza in the Netherlands but they couldn’t send it here unfortunately due to the restrictions.
Glaucus
Omono
Yup, these plants specifically will be easy to prune down and wire to a whip with branches on the outside of bends. Others, I will have to apply some more of a clip and grow to. I have many that are extremely multitrunked already and might have suffered reverse taper. But, I need large plants with flowers first to judge their potential. I will have to figure out my own style of creating somewhat artful azalea at a young age. Plenty to practice with.
Not sure about the details, but I believe UK will have to align to the single market once more for me to ship to the UK. If big companies can't do it, I think for me it will be worse. I don't think I can get certified plants as a hobbyist.
My guess is that a phytosanitary certificate by a grower in Japan, that is valid for the EU, is not valid from EU to UK. And since BonsaiPlaza is just a retailer/importer, they don't have their own phytosanitary certificate. So MiniSatuski is your best bet for EU sellers.
Glaucus
Omono
First new seeds of this season are germinating. They always look the same, so I didn't see a point in providing a picture.
For the field, I found out the well water parameters are 0.5 mS/cm EC and pH is high at 8.7. Last year, I watered from this well once or twice a day as there was a 2 month drought. At the end, the plants were not happy.
But now they are pretty decent.
Of course, the alkalinity of this well water is more important than the pH. I will test this with a test strip, which is not so accurate and has a poor range.
Azaleas prefer a pH of 5 to 6.5 and nutrients are most available between 5.8 and 6.2. So 8.7 in itself would be very bad. But what matters is what happens to the pH of this water once it hits the soil and the rootzone.
For this, I will both test the pH & EC of the soil (using demiwater), and that of the well water in combination with the soil.
I'll see if I can lower the alkalinity of the well water and bring the pH down using sulfuric acid. But I don't think I can sneak 96% H2SO4 out of the lab. So if the alkalinity is actually high, I won't really be able to lower 1000 liters of well water properly.
I have to do some tests. I can't use half a bottle of pH Down or 15% H2SO4 every time I will the well water tank.
I also plan to do fertigation next season. The product I will use is Yara Tera Azur. This is a commercial 100% water soluble solid with 20-5-10 NPK + 2MgO +Trace Elements. It is advertised as ideal for azaleas, heater, rhododendron, etc.
The reason for this is because it has a significant part of nitrogen in the form of ammonium salts. Many similar products focused on other plants prefer to use nitrate nitrogen. So these contain a ton of potassium nitrate.
Ammonium is good for azaleas because it acidifies the soil. When a plant takes up NH4+, it has to transport out a H+, lowering the pH. Additionally, microbes can break down NH4+ into NO3-, producing several H+ ions, again acidifying the soil. This is the famous nitrification process.
Additionally, when a plant takes up NO3-, it secretes a HCO-, bringing up the pH of the soil.
The traditional downside of NH4+ is that it is not as mobile as NO3-. NO3- does not absorb onto clay/silica particles, because like silica binding sites, it is negatively charged. NH4+ does. Therefore, NH4+ stays in the top layer of the soil.
This can cause salt toxicity because NH4+ does not wash and leech away. So for deep rooting plants NO3- is the better nitrogen source, as it will follow the water and drain deeper into the soil, or wash out of the pot. Especially when it rains.
This is why the Yara Tera Azur product is marketed/adjusted for fertigation of acid-loving plants.
My tap water is 0.5 mS/cm EC and pH 7.8. Tap water company states the alkalinity is 220 mg/L HCO3-, which is on the medium high side. The good thing about the 0.5 mS/cm EC of both my water sources is that it gives plenty of room to add the Tera Azur fertilizer and go up to EC of 1.0 mS/cm. I have not seen which EC values for the fertigation solution are ideal specifically for rhododendron or azaleas. But the EC property of the soil should be between 0.7 to 2 mS/cm.
Some of my plants in kanuma are not doing as well. I did not fertilize these properly. So my plant is to explore fertigation of these, combined with RO water. Kanuma is lower CEC than peat-based soil. So that means that less minerals will be retained, say NH4+, and more fertilizer will leach out. So kanuma should have a lower EC value. With my tap water, the EC value inside the kanuma could possible go towards an EC of 0.5 mS/cm, as every watering will leach out stuff. So the goal is to water these once a week with RO water filled with this water-soluble fertilizer towards 1.0 mS/cm. These fertilizers also have all the trace elements in chelated form.
Two questions I still have is calcium requirements and the effect of urea fertilizer. Calcium is one of the hardest to take up for plants in general. And calcium toxicity doesn't seem to be a huge problem. Most fertilizer products however only add magnesium, no fertilizer. Additionally, calcium is sometimes associated with acid neutralization. But calcium can come from calcium nitrate, and in fertilizer often does. Not lime.
Second, urea is often added to fertilizer as a foilar feed nutrient. But the other argument is that microbes need to break down urea, and that therefore urea is bad for hydroponics, and not so good for substrate. The argument with substrate is that it can give pH fluctuations. But for soil or peat, urea should be fine. However, I do not fully understand why urea is most easily taken up directly through the leaves. But then in the soil is slow, because it needs to be broken down (well I understand that last part).
Next spring, in the growing field, I will be using some organic fertilizer first, to feed the soil, not the plants. And then when growth starts to pick up, I'll use some fertigation bi- or triweekly. And I'll skip one row, to see if there is a difference.
Once I have that tuned in, I can see if I can also play with the calcium concentration, and with lowering nitrogen past July.
One more week and I think I will take down all the sun flowers:
They grew up to be 4 meters tall. And helped provide shade.
One good thing about more shade is that growth elongates a lot more. For azaleas, if you need elongated growth to set up a branch or the base of a foliage pad, you grow it in the shade. But if you want fine compact growth, you provide more sun.
Can make a huge difference.
For the field, I found out the well water parameters are 0.5 mS/cm EC and pH is high at 8.7. Last year, I watered from this well once or twice a day as there was a 2 month drought. At the end, the plants were not happy.
But now they are pretty decent.
Of course, the alkalinity of this well water is more important than the pH. I will test this with a test strip, which is not so accurate and has a poor range.
Azaleas prefer a pH of 5 to 6.5 and nutrients are most available between 5.8 and 6.2. So 8.7 in itself would be very bad. But what matters is what happens to the pH of this water once it hits the soil and the rootzone.
For this, I will both test the pH & EC of the soil (using demiwater), and that of the well water in combination with the soil.
I'll see if I can lower the alkalinity of the well water and bring the pH down using sulfuric acid. But I don't think I can sneak 96% H2SO4 out of the lab. So if the alkalinity is actually high, I won't really be able to lower 1000 liters of well water properly.
I have to do some tests. I can't use half a bottle of pH Down or 15% H2SO4 every time I will the well water tank.
I also plan to do fertigation next season. The product I will use is Yara Tera Azur. This is a commercial 100% water soluble solid with 20-5-10 NPK + 2MgO +Trace Elements. It is advertised as ideal for azaleas, heater, rhododendron, etc.
The reason for this is because it has a significant part of nitrogen in the form of ammonium salts. Many similar products focused on other plants prefer to use nitrate nitrogen. So these contain a ton of potassium nitrate.
Ammonium is good for azaleas because it acidifies the soil. When a plant takes up NH4+, it has to transport out a H+, lowering the pH. Additionally, microbes can break down NH4+ into NO3-, producing several H+ ions, again acidifying the soil. This is the famous nitrification process.
Additionally, when a plant takes up NO3-, it secretes a HCO-, bringing up the pH of the soil.
The traditional downside of NH4+ is that it is not as mobile as NO3-. NO3- does not absorb onto clay/silica particles, because like silica binding sites, it is negatively charged. NH4+ does. Therefore, NH4+ stays in the top layer of the soil.
This can cause salt toxicity because NH4+ does not wash and leech away. So for deep rooting plants NO3- is the better nitrogen source, as it will follow the water and drain deeper into the soil, or wash out of the pot. Especially when it rains.
This is why the Yara Tera Azur product is marketed/adjusted for fertigation of acid-loving plants.
My tap water is 0.5 mS/cm EC and pH 7.8. Tap water company states the alkalinity is 220 mg/L HCO3-, which is on the medium high side. The good thing about the 0.5 mS/cm EC of both my water sources is that it gives plenty of room to add the Tera Azur fertilizer and go up to EC of 1.0 mS/cm. I have not seen which EC values for the fertigation solution are ideal specifically for rhododendron or azaleas. But the EC property of the soil should be between 0.7 to 2 mS/cm.
Some of my plants in kanuma are not doing as well. I did not fertilize these properly. So my plant is to explore fertigation of these, combined with RO water. Kanuma is lower CEC than peat-based soil. So that means that less minerals will be retained, say NH4+, and more fertilizer will leach out. So kanuma should have a lower EC value. With my tap water, the EC value inside the kanuma could possible go towards an EC of 0.5 mS/cm, as every watering will leach out stuff. So the goal is to water these once a week with RO water filled with this water-soluble fertilizer towards 1.0 mS/cm. These fertilizers also have all the trace elements in chelated form.
Two questions I still have is calcium requirements and the effect of urea fertilizer. Calcium is one of the hardest to take up for plants in general. And calcium toxicity doesn't seem to be a huge problem. Most fertilizer products however only add magnesium, no fertilizer. Additionally, calcium is sometimes associated with acid neutralization. But calcium can come from calcium nitrate, and in fertilizer often does. Not lime.
Second, urea is often added to fertilizer as a foilar feed nutrient. But the other argument is that microbes need to break down urea, and that therefore urea is bad for hydroponics, and not so good for substrate. The argument with substrate is that it can give pH fluctuations. But for soil or peat, urea should be fine. However, I do not fully understand why urea is most easily taken up directly through the leaves. But then in the soil is slow, because it needs to be broken down (well I understand that last part).
Next spring, in the growing field, I will be using some organic fertilizer first, to feed the soil, not the plants. And then when growth starts to pick up, I'll use some fertigation bi- or triweekly. And I'll skip one row, to see if there is a difference.
Once I have that tuned in, I can see if I can also play with the calcium concentration, and with lowering nitrogen past July.
One more week and I think I will take down all the sun flowers:
They grew up to be 4 meters tall. And helped provide shade.
One good thing about more shade is that growth elongates a lot more. For azaleas, if you need elongated growth to set up a branch or the base of a foliage pad, you grow it in the shade. But if you want fine compact growth, you provide more sun.
Can make a huge difference.
Last edited:
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Good report. Love the sunflower addition. It lends beauty and shade!
Anyways…. Some good ponderings….I like the way these issues are being approached systematically
Be interesting to see the results of the tests.
Wondering as the water is borderline moderate/hard if there actually already is a slight excess of either magnesium or calcium, or both. Enough that during irrigating slight issues of excess as shown begin to show, rather then deficiencies. Then when the rains show, the low pH and alkalinity of the rainwater reverses the situation?
If not and there is truly a lack of calcium, what would one think about adding gypsum, which doesn’t affect pH. Folks often use it as a soil amendment/flocculant and to help loosen the hardpan clay in the gardens out here.
With many azaleas (north of 100) in Kanuma/Pumice/Biochar (roughly 87/8/5%) we find only moderate fertilization (small #of Osmocote plus pellets 10-12 in 6” pot +/or Biogold 1-2x/yr coupled with 3-5 fertilizations/year of Miracid/Humic/Kelp) to be done. We are actually doing less fertilization than previous years.
Perhaps two key items might be done differently for plants in Kanuma.
First the addition of Biochar.
Second all plants are kept mossed with Yamagoke (mountain Moss). Actually all includes all conifers/deciduous too
At the very least these two additions drive up the moisture retention. Highly likely Biochar helps with nutrient uptake, given the data. Additionally the coverage of the media ramps up the microbial activity in the rhizosphere.
Just some thoughts
Best
DSD sends
Anyways…. Some good ponderings….I like the way these issues are being approached systematically
Be interesting to see the results of the tests.
Wondering as the water is borderline moderate/hard if there actually already is a slight excess of either magnesium or calcium, or both. Enough that during irrigating slight issues of excess as shown begin to show, rather then deficiencies. Then when the rains show, the low pH and alkalinity of the rainwater reverses the situation?
If not and there is truly a lack of calcium, what would one think about adding gypsum, which doesn’t affect pH. Folks often use it as a soil amendment/flocculant and to help loosen the hardpan clay in the gardens out here.
With many azaleas (north of 100) in Kanuma/Pumice/Biochar (roughly 87/8/5%) we find only moderate fertilization (small #of Osmocote plus pellets 10-12 in 6” pot +/or Biogold 1-2x/yr coupled with 3-5 fertilizations/year of Miracid/Humic/Kelp) to be done. We are actually doing less fertilization than previous years.
Perhaps two key items might be done differently for plants in Kanuma.
First the addition of Biochar.
Second all plants are kept mossed with Yamagoke (mountain Moss). Actually all includes all conifers/deciduous too
At the very least these two additions drive up the moisture retention. Highly likely Biochar helps with nutrient uptake, given the data. Additionally the coverage of the media ramps up the microbial activity in the rhizosphere.
Just some thoughts
Best
DSD sends
Glaucus
Omono
Actually, the well water seems to have a lower alkalinity than the tap water here. I did a test of fresher well water, not what has been inside the container for a while. And that was 8.0.
The bicarbonate. was about 40 mg/L with a rough test strip. Turns out just a bit of acid was able to adjust 400 liters to pH 6.8.
The well water does have about 100 mg/L nitrate.
I believe that magnesium, calcium, potassium and phosphate are low for this water.
Last year, during the heat wave, they started to look less happy after 2 months of almost daily watering:
www.bonsainut.com
But I believe lack of shade also played a role here.
None of that this year. Yes, could be magnesium or calcium being low too.
It isn't rain water, so the well water does contain some. Hard to know without a lab test.
Since the alkalinity of this water doesn't seem to be very high, meaning adding acid can bring the pH lower somewhat easily, the same can be said for acids in the soil.
I am also going to test that. So it is probably not like the azaleas were growing in pH 7.5 soil and the area around the roots had low solubility and thus almost availability of iron, magnesium, calcium.
But all that could have played a role. I will treat them to some fertilizer soon by adding some nitrogen-poor fertilizer to this water bringing it to 0.8 EC. It will start to rain soon, so that can wash away some unneeded salts.
Then, I can add a bunch of stuff and they can take up what they might have been lacking during summer.
I did add a box of petlletized rhododendron fertilizer to this field early spring. And no osmocote or biogold for thse plants. So it is not like these are starving for nutrients. But whatever those 12 feet/4m tall sunflowers pulled from the soil, that isn't returning to it anytime soon.
So that I need to replace. Especially if not much of it occurs in the tap water. And next to that, it makes sense to think which nutrient is the one that is most likely to be limiting growth or health, being the limiting factor. Granted, that factor could also be water, sun, space, temperature, etc.
I'd rather add liquid fertilizer with known calcium or magnesium and a known EC than just throwing around some salts. Gypsum would be a correct form of calcium, of course. And Epsom the right one for magnesium
Yes, this well water would benefit a bit more from adding gypsum salt to irrigation water than adding calcium nitrate, because there's nitrate already. So I might see if I can buy that on the cheap.
One could also kinda check runoff from the roots by measuring EC of the water coming out of the soil. This to check if there is salt buildup around the roots of the plant to know if you should generally fertilize more or less.
But it is much much easier to do so with a potted plant.
So just before it rains, Ill try to measure the EC of the soil in the root area as well to see if the amount of salts in the soil are actually on the high or low side. Azaleas prefer it low compared to other plants.
Right now, these grow fine. But this soil likely prefers to hold on to nutrients much more than kanuma (without biochar).
But I need to improve mine in kanuma. So I have 3 different regimes (field, pot with peat/perlite, pot with kanuma) and I need to figure out in each of these 3, which nutrient I need to add.
And since both my water sources are not high EC to start with, adding some water-soluble fertilizer to it is pretty safe. Just over time accumulation of minerals that don't leech out well might be an issue.
Especially during dry summers. I just want to try and see if I can improve the quality of the plants a bit so I can set up some production targeted for sale. Or think about field-growing a bunch more for bonsai.
The bicarbonate. was about 40 mg/L with a rough test strip. Turns out just a bit of acid was able to adjust 400 liters to pH 6.8.
The well water does have about 100 mg/L nitrate.
I believe that magnesium, calcium, potassium and phosphate are low for this water.
Last year, during the heat wave, they started to look less happy after 2 months of almost daily watering:
Glaucus Satsuki Azalea farm
Here some pictures of my satsuki production line. Most of these are hybrid seedlings. Some are cuttings of named cultivar. Seedlings in the test grow: These ones grow very well in full sun and quite organic-material poor sandy soil. I expect solid purple flowers on these. A whole bunch...
But I believe lack of shade also played a role here.
None of that this year. Yes, could be magnesium or calcium being low too.
It isn't rain water, so the well water does contain some. Hard to know without a lab test.
Since the alkalinity of this water doesn't seem to be very high, meaning adding acid can bring the pH lower somewhat easily, the same can be said for acids in the soil.
I am also going to test that. So it is probably not like the azaleas were growing in pH 7.5 soil and the area around the roots had low solubility and thus almost availability of iron, magnesium, calcium.
But all that could have played a role. I will treat them to some fertilizer soon by adding some nitrogen-poor fertilizer to this water bringing it to 0.8 EC. It will start to rain soon, so that can wash away some unneeded salts.
Then, I can add a bunch of stuff and they can take up what they might have been lacking during summer.
I did add a box of petlletized rhododendron fertilizer to this field early spring. And no osmocote or biogold for thse plants. So it is not like these are starving for nutrients. But whatever those 12 feet/4m tall sunflowers pulled from the soil, that isn't returning to it anytime soon.
So that I need to replace. Especially if not much of it occurs in the tap water. And next to that, it makes sense to think which nutrient is the one that is most likely to be limiting growth or health, being the limiting factor. Granted, that factor could also be water, sun, space, temperature, etc.
I'd rather add liquid fertilizer with known calcium or magnesium and a known EC than just throwing around some salts. Gypsum would be a correct form of calcium, of course. And Epsom the right one for magnesium
Yes, this well water would benefit a bit more from adding gypsum salt to irrigation water than adding calcium nitrate, because there's nitrate already. So I might see if I can buy that on the cheap.
One could also kinda check runoff from the roots by measuring EC of the water coming out of the soil. This to check if there is salt buildup around the roots of the plant to know if you should generally fertilize more or less.
But it is much much easier to do so with a potted plant.
So just before it rains, Ill try to measure the EC of the soil in the root area as well to see if the amount of salts in the soil are actually on the high or low side. Azaleas prefer it low compared to other plants.
Right now, these grow fine. But this soil likely prefers to hold on to nutrients much more than kanuma (without biochar).
But I need to improve mine in kanuma. So I have 3 different regimes (field, pot with peat/perlite, pot with kanuma) and I need to figure out in each of these 3, which nutrient I need to add.
And since both my water sources are not high EC to start with, adding some water-soluble fertilizer to it is pretty safe. Just over time accumulation of minerals that don't leech out well might be an issue.
Especially during dry summers. I just want to try and see if I can improve the quality of the plants a bit so I can set up some production targeted for sale. Or think about field-growing a bunch more for bonsai.
Last edited:
Glaucus
Omono
It is a hypothesis that this can be helpful. In general because you add redundant genetic material. But additionally there is this idea that there is a dosage relationship between plastid DNA and chromosomal DNA where the plastid DNA of one species counts on there being two chromosomes worth of dosage of other genes. But if this gene is provided once by one parent, but not provided by the other because the genetics are too different, then for a diploid there is only 1 chromosome. This is said to have caused albino seedlings, where there is plasmid-chromosome genetic incompatibility.
For a 4n x 2n cross, giving a 2n +1n hybrid offspring, you could also imagine it as a normal seedling with diploid 2n chromosomes of the tetraploid 4n parent, but with 1 exotic chromosome of the other diploid parent floating around.
So it is like a normal seedling of the tetraploid parent, with some extra genetic info from the other parent.
This is proposed by Sakai, Kaori, et al. "Intrasubgeneric and interploid cross compatibility in evergreen and deciduous azaleas." (2006): 73-81.
Not sure how common this strategy is in other plant genus. But I am trying this approach. I have seedlings now collected from a deciduous azalea where I applied satsuki pollen. And both are tetraploids. I removed the petals before the flower opened, so there is not much risk of contamination. Seed germination is high and no odd albino seedlings so far. Not sure if they are deciduous x evergreen hybrids, though.
I am still considering that they may all come from deciduous pollen contamination and that the satsuki pollen had no effect.
I'll have to wait 1 or 2 more months to see if I can compare seedling morphology and draw inferences.
Glaucus
Omono
All rhododendrons have 13 chromosomes. Just diploids have 2 of each (2x13), triploids have 3 of each (3x13), and tetraploids have 4 of each (4x13).
There might be a species with 14 chromosomes, but I am not aware and I guess that could cause issues when hybridizing with 13 chromosomes.
Not sure if a 13 +14 diploid can exist and if this gives problems It would be aneuploidy and I am not a cell biologist so I would need to have to read wikipedia.
It is not something that exists in rhododendron, as far as I know.
Subgenus hybrids in rhododendron often seem problematic, but not impossible. Even with the same chromosome count among all of them.
Polyploid mismatch infertility is another issue. Seedlings from a 2n x 4n = 3n cross usually do not germinate.
There might be a species with 14 chromosomes, but I am not aware and I guess that could cause issues when hybridizing with 13 chromosomes.
Not sure if a 13 +14 diploid can exist and if this gives problems It would be aneuploidy and I am not a cell biologist so I would need to have to read wikipedia.
It is not something that exists in rhododendron, as far as I know.
Subgenus hybrids in rhododendron often seem problematic, but not impossible. Even with the same chromosome count among all of them.
Polyploid mismatch infertility is another issue. Seedlings from a 2n x 4n = 3n cross usually do not germinate.
