Glaucus Satsuki Azalea farm
- Thread starter Glaucus
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Glaucus
Omono
Yup, though my coding system is breaking down. These newly sown seedlings will get the code 'MsHn5xAe14Hn3'.
These new seedlings would be named MsHn5xAe14Hn3-2024-01. I am making more different crosses with longer code names. There's some other ones with 'We1Hn2xMsKa3'. Imaging crossbreeding the results of these together, code name-wise. I need new shorter names for them.
These now will be my 3rd generation seedlings. And they have a nice history connecting, Japan, Taiwan, the US, Germany, everything.
I expect half of these seedlings to be white. And when they are, for variegation&shibori to show up in most of them. Not sure how the kurume & R.nakaharae genes will play when mixed together, with a more dominant satsuki profile overall. Half of the genes of these kinda come from 'Hanatsuzuri'.
This is how the family tree would look like:
These new seedlings would be named MsHn5xAe14Hn3-2024-01. I am making more different crosses with longer code names. There's some other ones with 'We1Hn2xMsKa3'. Imaging crossbreeding the results of these together, code name-wise. I need new shorter names for them.
These now will be my 3rd generation seedlings. And they have a nice history connecting, Japan, Taiwan, the US, Germany, everything.
I expect half of these seedlings to be white. And when they are, for variegation&shibori to show up in most of them. Not sure how the kurume & R.nakaharae genes will play when mixed together, with a more dominant satsuki profile overall. Half of the genes of these kinda come from 'Hanatsuzuri'.
This is how the family tree would look like:
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Glaucus
Omono
Wait, text is getting too small to post the full tree. Let me instead post two complete trees of both parents.
'Maraschino' x Hanatsuzuri':
Ae14 x 'Hanatsuzuri':
My own personal database and metal tags are essential to keep track of this stuff.
You also see that going back in time, you see the same azalea ancestors show up in different spots in the family tree. Kozan, Gekkeikan, Kermesina. Because in the past, there were less azalea cultivars than in the present. It is the same with people and our ancestors. If you go back in time far enough, quite quickly you have more ancestors than there were people on planet earth. And the same persons show up over and over.
[edit]
Bla, resolution is still to low to read properly. But larger text and it no longer fits on my monitor. You'd think 3840x2160 pixels would be enough.
'Maraschino' x Hanatsuzuri':
Ae14 x 'Hanatsuzuri':
My own personal database and metal tags are essential to keep track of this stuff.
You also see that going back in time, you see the same azalea ancestors show up in different spots in the family tree. Kozan, Gekkeikan, Kermesina. Because in the past, there were less azalea cultivars than in the present. It is the same with people and our ancestors. If you go back in time far enough, quite quickly you have more ancestors than there were people on planet earth. And the same persons show up over and over.
[edit]
Bla, resolution is still to low to read properly. But larger text and it no longer fits on my monitor. You'd think 3840x2160 pixels would be enough.
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Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Yep pretty complicated.
Well… one keep the code MsHn5xAe14Hn3 and substitute it with “Generation 3 cross alpha”. That way if you do another cross it could be G3b-2024….. etc.
Two issues, parentage becomes less clear as one would need to look up the actual cross and one has to keep good records and esp. labels.
Two benefits, one knows it’s a third generation cross and the name is so much shorter.
Really interested in seeing if one could produce variegated cold tolerant cultivars. Would be the flip side of the coin that would bring varigated or not heat tolerant cultivars… which likely would be a tougher nut.
Best
DSD sends
Well… one keep the code MsHn5xAe14Hn3 and substitute it with “Generation 3 cross alpha”. That way if you do another cross it could be G3b-2024….. etc.
Two issues, parentage becomes less clear as one would need to look up the actual cross and one has to keep good records and esp. labels.
Two benefits, one knows it’s a third generation cross and the name is so much shorter.
Really interested in seeing if one could produce variegated cold tolerant cultivars. Would be the flip side of the coin that would bring varigated or not heat tolerant cultivars… which likely would be a tougher nut.
Best
DSD sends
Glaucus
Omono
I need to name actual plants of my own and never use those not named in my crosses. But I am not at that point yet. But even for two letter codes, I can run out of letters.
Say I name the Ae14 x Hn seedling 'Emerald Glitters', I could use 'EG' as the code for Ae14xHn-3. That solves it.
For variegated cold tolerance I also have some breeding with 'Girard's Fuchsia' with 'Asahi no Izumi' from last year and with 'Hanatsuzuri' from this year. As well as the red Czech azalea that is supposedly very hardy. Probably both non-satsuki parents are zone 5 azaleas. With 'Girard's Fuchsia', I believe half will be white. I can see yellow leaves on half of them now, for their old leaves.I deliberately searched out 'Girard's Fuchsia' because other breeders reported getting multicoloured seedlings from it, flagging it as a recessive carrier for whiteness or paleness. Not sure if their spring leaves are variegated. I should check actually. Then I need to grow cuttings of the best white & variegated, then ship them to zone 6 people for testing. Same with the Czech red azalea ones bred with 'Kangiten', but those were all solid red in the first generation.
Not being able to get the right flowers in the first generation slows things down. And the climate being mild here, it may actually be a zone 8 here already, means I get no selection myself on cold hardiness. Even the Belgican indica breedings don' t really die in winter. Someone did try a 'Alexander' x 'Hekisui cutting, but not Ae14 or Ae22, near Stockholm, Sweden, and I believe it died. Which is why I think for zone 6 I need the Hachmann obtusum types. Or even the zone 5ers.
Here in Europe at least, some of the more colder parts are also the more continental parts, meaning hotter and drier. Think Prague, Czech Republic, of Munich, Germany, or mountainous parts of Romania. This is quite tricky to select for. I need several locations, with several mature plants of a seedling I think is really attractive. And then test-grow them in these parts of Europe for at least half a decade. Hard to do. Of course coastal Scandinavia is another way to go cold, but not go hot and dry.
In the end, if I want a professional grower in the Netherlands to grow my cultivars, it doesn't need to be hardy in zone 6 anyway. They produce the plants in mostly a greenhouse in zone 7-8, then it needs to look pretty and sell. If the consumer kills it, they will just come back next year to buy more plants, kinda. The challenge is more to get a grower here to grow something that' s really pretty, cheaply.
Say I name the Ae14 x Hn seedling 'Emerald Glitters', I could use 'EG' as the code for Ae14xHn-3. That solves it.
For variegated cold tolerance I also have some breeding with 'Girard's Fuchsia' with 'Asahi no Izumi' from last year and with 'Hanatsuzuri' from this year. As well as the red Czech azalea that is supposedly very hardy. Probably both non-satsuki parents are zone 5 azaleas. With 'Girard's Fuchsia', I believe half will be white. I can see yellow leaves on half of them now, for their old leaves.I deliberately searched out 'Girard's Fuchsia' because other breeders reported getting multicoloured seedlings from it, flagging it as a recessive carrier for whiteness or paleness. Not sure if their spring leaves are variegated. I should check actually. Then I need to grow cuttings of the best white & variegated, then ship them to zone 6 people for testing. Same with the Czech red azalea ones bred with 'Kangiten', but those were all solid red in the first generation.
Not being able to get the right flowers in the first generation slows things down. And the climate being mild here, it may actually be a zone 8 here already, means I get no selection myself on cold hardiness. Even the Belgican indica breedings don' t really die in winter. Someone did try a 'Alexander' x 'Hekisui cutting, but not Ae14 or Ae22, near Stockholm, Sweden, and I believe it died. Which is why I think for zone 6 I need the Hachmann obtusum types. Or even the zone 5ers.
Here in Europe at least, some of the more colder parts are also the more continental parts, meaning hotter and drier. Think Prague, Czech Republic, of Munich, Germany, or mountainous parts of Romania. This is quite tricky to select for. I need several locations, with several mature plants of a seedling I think is really attractive. And then test-grow them in these parts of Europe for at least half a decade. Hard to do. Of course coastal Scandinavia is another way to go cold, but not go hot and dry.
In the end, if I want a professional grower in the Netherlands to grow my cultivars, it doesn't need to be hardy in zone 6 anyway. They produce the plants in mostly a greenhouse in zone 7-8, then it needs to look pretty and sell. If the consumer kills it, they will just come back next year to buy more plants, kinda. The challenge is more to get a grower here to grow something that' s really pretty, cheaply.
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Glaucus
Omono
I picked out these chlorotic seedlings. Their sibling seedlings were all very dark green and rapidly growing. It seems these grow poorly, have less roots and leaves. One tray had three like these and that tray was in one of the more shaded spots. I suspect these get too much water and are too wet.
The pale green with no veins should be a nitrogen deficiency. Which means the plant has just failed to take it up and produce proper chlorophyll.
And this very veiny trait should be iron deficiency:
I kinda wanted to do an experiment to keep half of them like they are, and put the other half in a drier spot, maybe skip watering them once in a while, and give them chelated iron. But keeping them separate and labeled seems too much work. So I'll keep them together and see if they start to look better with more sun & chelated iron.
The pale green with no veins should be a nitrogen deficiency. Which means the plant has just failed to take it up and produce proper chlorophyll.
And this very veiny trait should be iron deficiency:
I kinda wanted to do an experiment to keep half of them like they are, and put the other half in a drier spot, maybe skip watering them once in a while, and give them chelated iron. But keeping them separate and labeled seems too much work. So I'll keep them together and see if they start to look better with more sun & chelated iron.
Glaucus
Omono
Near the end of the growing season here:
Next spring I'll visit a Dutch azalea grower and I will show them some of my plants. They may be interested in including some satsuki in their catalogue.
Next spring I'll visit a Dutch azalea grower and I will show them some of my plants. They may be interested in including some satsuki in their catalogue.
Tums
Shohin
Hi @Glaucus, I've started doing some hybridizing with large-leaf rhododendrons (not for bonsai obviously). I hadn't given much thought to hybridizing azaleas until recently, but now the idea of Satsuki flowers and foliage in zone 5-6 is intriguing me. Do you know if there are any incompatibilities among the evergreen azaleas? I wouldn't think so because all the species involved seem closely related (in the same subgenus Tsutsusi + section Tsutsusi of the taxomic tree at https://www.rhododendron.org/taxonomictree.asp), but I would rather ask someone with a lot of experience first.
As a first cross idea, I was thinking Stewartstonian x Chojuho (Winter color and cold hardiness X narrow petals and smaller leaves).
As a first cross idea, I was thinking Stewartstonian x Chojuho (Winter color and cold hardiness X narrow petals and smaller leaves).
Glaucus
Omono
I have had near 100% germination crossbreeding satsuki with azaleas somewhat similar to Stewartstonian. Note that the mutation of Chojuho is recessive. The flowers of Chojuho are not fully petal. Which is why their shape is different/smaller, their colour changes to green, the petals are said to be immune to petal blight, and the flowers last much longer.
You would need to crossbreed a second time to try to get hardiness & winter colour & the flower mutation. I myself have some hardy European azaleas, with Senbazuru, the white version of Chojuho (so same mutation). But I expect all of them to be normal flowers, as indicated by a research paper as well.
Satsuki like Chojuho, Osakazuki, Kozan, might be borderline hardy in zone 6. But maybe not your zone 6. Zone 5 is pushing it for evergreen azaleas. Some very hardy ones are indeed Stewartstonian. But also Girard'd Fuchsia, which I have used. Also Herbert, Karens or Karen (or both, I confuse them). And Pride's Pale Lilac is maybe the most hardy. Maybe these are zone 4 in NA.
The best article on azalea hardiness is probably this:
But most of the azaleas mentionend seem to have gone out of trade, except maybe 'Pale Lilac'. You might go on a search to find the best genetics for the hardy azalea. But Herbert or Stewartstonian should be fine. While there should be compatibility, I have found that often it is best to try several different combinations for the same goal. Say Stewartstonian crossbred with Chojuho. And say 'Herbert' with 'Nikko'. Actually, you probably would have the satsuki be the seed parent, as they flower later. The overlap may not be ideal, so you need to store and dry some flowers indoors. You need to find some flowers of say Stewartstonian, Herbert, Girard's Fuchsia, that have a good amount of pollen. And just rip the entire flower off and store dry indoors. Or just rip the stamen out. Use whatever experience you have, or what worked for you with large leaf rhody's.
I believe I did not get seed pods on Senbazuru. So it may be that these mutated flowers don't produce seeds. But they do produce pollen and it seemed to be quite viable because I got plenty of seeds and one seed pod was formed indoors. So no contaminations. The research paper (link below) describes that they did get many seedlings where Chojuho was the seed parent. So it seems possible to do a cross that way.
@Pitoon tried Chojuho itself, so maybe he can comment on seed pods on Chojoho. I just had a small Senbazuru cutting so I tried just 2 flowers.
If indeed Chojuho can't set seed because of the mutation, then that's good to know because you might waste 1 or even 2 years.
You can get satsuki to flower earlier by moving them indoors under grow lights about a month, maybe 2, before they normally wake up from dormancy.
The paper about the Chojuho mutation is here, they call it misome-sho in Japanese, is here:
Check figure 3 for a visual representation of the recessive-dominant thing.
You would need to crossbreed a second time to try to get hardiness & winter colour & the flower mutation. I myself have some hardy European azaleas, with Senbazuru, the white version of Chojuho (so same mutation). But I expect all of them to be normal flowers, as indicated by a research paper as well.
Satsuki like Chojuho, Osakazuki, Kozan, might be borderline hardy in zone 6. But maybe not your zone 6. Zone 5 is pushing it for evergreen azaleas. Some very hardy ones are indeed Stewartstonian. But also Girard'd Fuchsia, which I have used. Also Herbert, Karens or Karen (or both, I confuse them). And Pride's Pale Lilac is maybe the most hardy. Maybe these are zone 4 in NA.
The best article on azalea hardiness is probably this:
But most of the azaleas mentionend seem to have gone out of trade, except maybe 'Pale Lilac'. You might go on a search to find the best genetics for the hardy azalea. But Herbert or Stewartstonian should be fine. While there should be compatibility, I have found that often it is best to try several different combinations for the same goal. Say Stewartstonian crossbred with Chojuho. And say 'Herbert' with 'Nikko'. Actually, you probably would have the satsuki be the seed parent, as they flower later. The overlap may not be ideal, so you need to store and dry some flowers indoors. You need to find some flowers of say Stewartstonian, Herbert, Girard's Fuchsia, that have a good amount of pollen. And just rip the entire flower off and store dry indoors. Or just rip the stamen out. Use whatever experience you have, or what worked for you with large leaf rhody's.
I believe I did not get seed pods on Senbazuru. So it may be that these mutated flowers don't produce seeds. But they do produce pollen and it seemed to be quite viable because I got plenty of seeds and one seed pod was formed indoors. So no contaminations. The research paper (link below) describes that they did get many seedlings where Chojuho was the seed parent. So it seems possible to do a cross that way.
@Pitoon tried Chojuho itself, so maybe he can comment on seed pods on Chojoho. I just had a small Senbazuru cutting so I tried just 2 flowers.
If indeed Chojuho can't set seed because of the mutation, then that's good to know because you might waste 1 or even 2 years.
You can get satsuki to flower earlier by moving them indoors under grow lights about a month, maybe 2, before they normally wake up from dormancy.
The paper about the Chojuho mutation is here, they call it misome-sho in Japanese, is here:
Check figure 3 for a visual representation of the recessive-dominant thing.
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Tums
Shohin
Thanks for the detailed reply! I think a lot of the large leaf rhododendron concepts transfer over, like going to the second generation to recover recessive traits and storing pollen for plants that don't bloom together.
For the second generation, did you mean do a back cross onto Chojuho again or cross two of the first generation siblings? (If recessive not sure how to tell which ones would carry the petal gene)
As for hardiness, we are now supposedly a zone 6b in the new 2023 map, but just two years ago the temperature plunged to -15f one night. Beyond that, I think the length of winter and the uneven seasonal transitions would be difficult for the borderline hardy cultivars. The local Weston Nurseries has bred a few very hardy azaleas such as Bixby and kiusianum 'Texas Pink' although kiusianum isn't very evergreen.
For the second generation, did you mean do a back cross onto Chojuho again or cross two of the first generation siblings? (If recessive not sure how to tell which ones would carry the petal gene)
As for hardiness, we are now supposedly a zone 6b in the new 2023 map, but just two years ago the temperature plunged to -15f one night. Beyond that, I think the length of winter and the uneven seasonal transitions would be difficult for the borderline hardy cultivars. The local Weston Nurseries has bred a few very hardy azaleas such as Bixby and kiusianum 'Texas Pink' although kiusianum isn't very evergreen.
Glaucus
Omono
None of the very hardy cultivars are going to be very evergreen, naturally. Your local nurseries most know what is hardy. And if you go westward, away from the coast, they must know what is very hardy.
I have had very little issues so far with winter hardiness myself. But there haven't been any outliers winter-wise since I am growing evergreen azaleas. Yes, you are also up North. A long cold winter hits different if the summers are also colder and with less sunlight.
For the second generation, it is a simple Mendelian scheme. If you backcross the first generation F1 to the parent Chojuho, then the second generation seedlings should be 50% mutation, 50% wildtype. But if you cross F1 siblings, it is only 25% mutation.
With zero 0% mutated flower in your first F1 generation. This is because the mutation is controlled by a single gene. And only when the plant has no correct copy of that gene, the flowers turn out like Chojuho. Which means that for the first generation, that's kinda a bummer, because in the first generation, you get zero of what you want. But the good thing is that once you have a whole bunch of mutated flower seedlings, and you crossbreed them among each other, they all have the long-lasting mutated small flower. And you can just look at a flower and see what the genetics are, namely dominant recessive. But that also means you cannot get an intermediate flower. It is either mutated, or it isn't. Well, there could potentially be genetics that does give an intermediate form, but I have never seen a report of that. Just in case your hope was to get a more normal flower, but just smaller. Without the mutation, Chojuho is probably a species form of R.indicum, and thus a normal flower size.
It will probably be best to cross your F1 back to Chojuho. I myself hope to have some mutated forms. But my F1 will only flower next spring. My hope was also to retain the white flowers, another recessive mutation.
So I may back cross to Senbazuru as well, to improve the odds. And to be sure my F1 are actually carriers of the mutation.
If you want smaller flowers, it may be best to try a R.kiusianum hybrid anyway. The very hardy ones are mixtures of either R.kaempferi, R.mucronatum and especially R.poukhanense. Or sometimes all 3. Generally, these have a more open upright habit with larger leaves and flowers. R.kiusianum is better for bonsai.
I have had very little issues so far with winter hardiness myself. But there haven't been any outliers winter-wise since I am growing evergreen azaleas. Yes, you are also up North. A long cold winter hits different if the summers are also colder and with less sunlight.
For the second generation, it is a simple Mendelian scheme. If you backcross the first generation F1 to the parent Chojuho, then the second generation seedlings should be 50% mutation, 50% wildtype. But if you cross F1 siblings, it is only 25% mutation.
With zero 0% mutated flower in your first F1 generation. This is because the mutation is controlled by a single gene. And only when the plant has no correct copy of that gene, the flowers turn out like Chojuho. Which means that for the first generation, that's kinda a bummer, because in the first generation, you get zero of what you want. But the good thing is that once you have a whole bunch of mutated flower seedlings, and you crossbreed them among each other, they all have the long-lasting mutated small flower. And you can just look at a flower and see what the genetics are, namely dominant recessive. But that also means you cannot get an intermediate flower. It is either mutated, or it isn't. Well, there could potentially be genetics that does give an intermediate form, but I have never seen a report of that. Just in case your hope was to get a more normal flower, but just smaller. Without the mutation, Chojuho is probably a species form of R.indicum, and thus a normal flower size.
It will probably be best to cross your F1 back to Chojuho. I myself hope to have some mutated forms. But my F1 will only flower next spring. My hope was also to retain the white flowers, another recessive mutation.
So I may back cross to Senbazuru as well, to improve the odds. And to be sure my F1 are actually carriers of the mutation.
If you want smaller flowers, it may be best to try a R.kiusianum hybrid anyway. The very hardy ones are mixtures of either R.kaempferi, R.mucronatum and especially R.poukhanense. Or sometimes all 3. Generally, these have a more open upright habit with larger leaves and flowers. R.kiusianum is better for bonsai.
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Glaucus
Omono
On the first below 0C day in 2 years, I moved some more azaleas from outdoors to indoors. The plan is to crossbreed some more with Belgian indica azaleas.
Among them are some of my seedlings with very small leaves:
I have a whole series of these, the leaves are only a few mm across, less than a cm in length. Spring leaves will be larger. They are (Alexander x Hekisui) x Kozan crossbreedings.
After 3 years they are only less than 10cm tall. So very slow growing. So in terms of garden varieties, I wonder if they would be a dead end. They probably grow too slowly to be commercially viable.
Not sure if for bonsai purposes, they have a future.
Compared to a seedling with very large leaves, thanks to Kurume and maybe som Belgian indica azalea blood, you can see that large leaf has the same surface area as maybe 10 to 20 of these small leaves.
Maybe these can act as a parent to reduce the leaf size of some of the crosses I make with Belgian indica azaleas, to get an intermediate with reasonable winter hardiness, good vigor and growth rate, but intermediate leaf size.
There should be some flowers indoors within a month or so.
Also indoors are some Senbazuru crossbreedings. So it will be a testcase to see if maybe I get lucky and the Chojuho mutation turns out to not be recessive but dominant. Otherwise, I'll try to produce some seeds that should produce 50% seedlings with the Chojuho mutation, as I moved Senbazuru indoors as well.
Among them are some of my seedlings with very small leaves:
I have a whole series of these, the leaves are only a few mm across, less than a cm in length. Spring leaves will be larger. They are (Alexander x Hekisui) x Kozan crossbreedings.
After 3 years they are only less than 10cm tall. So very slow growing. So in terms of garden varieties, I wonder if they would be a dead end. They probably grow too slowly to be commercially viable.
Not sure if for bonsai purposes, they have a future.
Compared to a seedling with very large leaves, thanks to Kurume and maybe som Belgian indica azalea blood, you can see that large leaf has the same surface area as maybe 10 to 20 of these small leaves.
Maybe these can act as a parent to reduce the leaf size of some of the crosses I make with Belgian indica azaleas, to get an intermediate with reasonable winter hardiness, good vigor and growth rate, but intermediate leaf size.
There should be some flowers indoors within a month or so.
Also indoors are some Senbazuru crossbreedings. So it will be a testcase to see if maybe I get lucky and the Chojuho mutation turns out to not be recessive but dominant. Otherwise, I'll try to produce some seeds that should produce 50% seedlings with the Chojuho mutation, as I moved Senbazuru indoors as well.
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